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  1. #31
    Extraordinary Member The Dork Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cronus View Post
    So, Thanos allowed Moondragon to connect to his mind.
    That's literally not what's happening in the comic, even going by the scan never mind the 4 issues that preceded this. I have no idea how you arrived at the conclusion you did from that

    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    That doesn't really mean much considering that when she tries stuff like full out mindblast, the result is straight up nothing. I mean let's not go wacky, dude's resistances are high up there just fine.
    Yeah sure Thanos has good TP defence, good enough to stop outright control, which need not be the same thing as "good enough to have his intentions being read"

  2. #32
    Death of Time Cronus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dork Knight View Post
    If semantics over what "getting in his head" is all you've got, that's not much of an argument really.
    J'onn punches DD, DD catches the punch. J'onn being inside DD's head doesn't stop him from catching the punch. Ergo "getting in his mind" didn't work
    As you noted, J'onn uses telepathy, in what form we don't know immediately, then he throws two unanswered punches, a right cross, then a left cross. His assault was a physical one.

    Except there is no "pause" in the actual comic. DD is literally catching J'onn's punch before J'onn ascertained he was sentient. That's just.... the comic
    I'm saying J'onn's realization that Doomsday was sentient and his surprise is what allowed Doomsday to press his physical assault and defeat J'onn, hence the "pause" I was referring to.

    Except again you're simply ignoring the comic where J'onn specifically says " you'll harm no one else" before clearly launching a TP attack on him
    https://i.postimg.cc/B6yCRMrW/RCO019.jpg
    Did he forget the bit you think, or was he simply beaten? Was the telepath trying to find DD's "motivation" through the good ol fashioned Batman school of "punch him till he confesses"?
    So, if we say your argument is valid, that J'onn's assault was a telepathic one, then we would also assume it worked as J'onn threw two punches while Doomsday just stood there. Following the panels, it could be argued that Doomsday managed enough mental resistance to raise a hand, catch J'onn's punch and say,"Get out of my head Martian."

    We are still left with J'onn's obvious surprise at a talking, sentient Doomsday now applying physical pressure, and fire, to a guy with a psychosomatic weakness to the same. In essence, we'd have to argue that Doomsday's "resistance" was as much the combination of J'onn's surprise and Doomsday's physical assault as much as any mental "resistance" Doomsday was able to manifest. Had J'onn kept his distance and used TP, would there have been the same result? Doubtful.

    But again, you're using this ambiguous feat from a sentient Doomsday....we're talking H/P Doomsday in this thread. As noted above, we see J'onn was able to ascertain Doomsday's motivation for attacking as my previous scan clearly indicates.
    Superman 175.jpg

    If it's worth noting that Moondragon was able to ascertain information from Thanos' mind, wouldn't it also be noteworthy here? The difference is Thanos willingly connected to Moondragon's mind:
    Thanos Moondragon.jpg


    Yes, clearly the punching, " You'll harm no one else" and quite explicit TP waves coming from his head were him trying to find out about DD's thoughts and feelings
    It's strange to see how uninterested you are in details when you can otherwise base whole arguments off single panels it seems
    If it was actual TP assault, as I mention above, the idea that sentient Doomsday resisted Martian Manhunter should include the context I note above.

    It wasn't just Fine's resistance. His body was literally falling apart under Braniac's power and was unable to house him
    https://i.postimg.cc/pdCGcQVx/image.jpg

    Even limited as he was by the body, it's worth noting Milton Fine's very contact with Braniac was through an interstellar psionic search, albeit at the cost of his mind breaking down
    https://i.postimg.cc/NMWzRsfr/IMG-20190706-070204.jpg

    So it's not like he was as lacking in power as he turned out to be on earth in Fine's body because of the limitations.

    In that sense, DD's body represents an upgrade plain and simple, simply by virtue of it being even more durable than his last one
    Both hosts had limitations, and therefore inherent resistance to Brainiac's psi essence inhabiting them.

    But Fine had latent psionic ability. H/P Doomsday does not.

    My point is that Doomsday's body would not convey Brainiac's telepathic power as well as Fine's.

    Except J'onn (or the JLA) were not looking for DD... they just found him. They didn't know the nature of the threat because Braniac hid it from them.
    I didn't mean a physical search. I'm saying a combination of J'onn's "arrogance" (J'onn isn't arrogant, he likely was looking for the wrong thing) and Brainiac's TP defense prevented J'onn from "seeing the truth", that H/P Doomsday was no longer a mindless monster but was in fact being controlled by a very sentient Brainiac.

    There's a pretty big lead up to "hmm what could be causing this destruction? " before they finally get to DD. J'onn even went ahead

    It doesn't matter if Braniac's latest upgrade was more powerful than J'onn, what matters is in the context of the story it required someone more adept than J'onn to control DD.
    That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that you indicating H/P Doomsday's body was an upgrade...an improvement...for Brainiac to be able to operate telepathically isn't accurate. As mentioned, both Fine and Doomsday resisted Brainiac's psi essence. But Fine at least had some psionic ability. Doomsday inherently does not.

    Which, taken with J'onn's failure to stop the clone from "harming no one else" despite starting with a TP attack proves it takes more than regular MMH to stop DD. I don't think the same can be equated with Black Adam, since the HP DD appeared in all of 2 minis and maybe an issue in OWAW, with his whole shtick being "the same thing doesn't work twice".... TP in this case
    I'll review the OWAW stuff later.
    Last edited by Cronus; 07-06-2019 at 02:55 PM.
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  3. #33
    Extraordinary Member The Dork Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cronus View Post
    I'm saying J'onn's realization that Doomsday was sentient and his surprise is what allowed Doomsday to press his physical assault and defeat J'onn, hence the "pause" I was referring to.
    And I'm saying DD's resistance allowed to him to stop being dropped by punches + TP in the first place, to give him that pause.

    Doomsday managed enough mental resistance to raise a hand, catch J'onn's punch and say,"Get out of my head Martian."
    So cool, we're agreed on the basics just not on the details. And it's pretty clear what happened - DD MUST have resisted to some extent to stop being punched- ergo mental resistance to the MMH, in a fight situation no less

    In essence, we'd have to argue that Doomsday's "resistance" was as much the combination of J'onn's surprise and Doomsday's physical assault as much as any mental "resistance" Doomsday was able to manifest.
    Not initially. He had to catch the punch in the first place.before he himself attacked Jonn.Hence J'onn's surprise. Because he caught the punch. While J'onn was trying to get "in his head"

    Had J'onn kept his distance and used TP, would there have been the same result? Doubtful.
    No it's not doubtful since resistance from DD came BEFORE J'onn's surprise, after waves of TP coming from J'onn's head and hitting DD's body. You can argue the extent of the resistance, not the resistance itself

    But again, you're using this ambiguous feat from a sentient Doomsday....we're talking H/P Doomsday in this thread.
    I mean J'onn lost both to a DD with a mind and without in Doomsday wars but more to the point HP DD in the original story itself was sentient enough to identify Superman and Metropolis so... an explicitly weaker clone developing resistance seems proof enough of the original "adapt to everything" version doing the same especially as it was already doing so to Braniac, just more slowly

    If it's worth noting that Moondragon was able to ascertain information from Thanos' mind, wouldn't it also be noteworthy here? The difference is Thanos willingly connected to Moondragon's mind:
    Again you're otherwise arguing in the same thread that Moondragon along with others can barely control an unconscious weakened Thanos in the GOTG in this very thread. And here you're arguing just "connecting to his mind" for a different purpose, while she is weakened would allow her to read it? Seems like a contradiction

    Both hosts had limitations, and therefore inherent resistance to Brainiac's psi essence inhabiting them.
    Limitations enough to have the body literally start crumbling under Braniac's power.

    My point is that Doomsday's body would not convey Brainiac's telepathic power as well as Fine's.
    But just from not falling apart, DD's body can convey said power better

    That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that you indicating H/P Doomsday's body was an upgrade...an improvement...for Brainiac to be able to operate telepathically isn't accurate. As mentioned, both Fine and Doomsday resisted Brainiac's psi essence. But Fine at least had some psionic ability. Doomsday inherently doesnt
    Cropping some of that but basically that's a whole lot of speculation

    For me it's as simple as character with psionic abilities (Braniac) who's proven to have different powers in different bodies, specifically gets a different body for more power, does better. Or at least, Braniac's powers in each body should be judged on their own merit rather than previous standards for instance later Braniac's become universal level beings if we are going by "feats for all Braniacs through the era". If he did better in one body than the other in the story, for me that's just it, there's no need to over analyze by comparison with earlier bodies

    As for DD, he was already clearly resisting on telepath, and his whole shtick being " Adapt to stuff ", regardless of whether you believe Braniac is a better telepath, his weaker clone resisting the MMH shows that he must have "adapted" to such threats even more efficiently, since he had already adapted somewhat
    Last edited by The Dork Knight; 07-06-2019 at 09:30 PM.

  4. #34
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    As for DD, he was already clearly resisting on telepath, and his whole shtick being " Adapt to stuff ", regardless of whether you believe Braniac is a better telepath, his weaker clone resisting the MMH shows that he must have "adapted" to such threats even more efficiently, since he had already adapted somewhat
    This again ties back into something. So who overall is generally the better telepath? Braniac or J'onn? If the answer is J'onn, then a comparative showing like this where Braniac considerably outperforms him feels problematic.

  5. #35
    Extraordinary Member The Dork Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    This again ties back into something. So who overall is generally the better telepath? Braniac or J'onn? If the answer is J'onn, then a comparative showing like this where Braniac considerably outperforms him feels problematic.
    The thing with Braniac is that his powers change with every body. So the Braniac in DD's body was more powerful than J'onn and actually come to think of it even the earlier Braniac was probably more powerful than the J'onn of that era, but not later day J'onn.

    Given that was pretty much Braniac's only appearance in DD's body, there is no comparative showing

  6. #36
    Death of Time Cronus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dork Knight View Post
    And I'm saying DD's resistance allowed to him to stop being dropped by punches + TP in the first place, to give him that pause.


    So cool, we're agreed on the basics just not on the details. And it's pretty clear what happened - DD MUST have resisted to some extent to stop being punched- ergo mental resistance to the MMH, in a fight situation no less


    Not initially. He had to catch the punch in the first place.before he himself attacked Jonn.Hence J'onn's surprise. Because he caught the punch. While J'onn was trying to get "in his head"


    No it's not doubtful since resistance from DD came BEFORE J'onn's surprise, after waves of TP coming from J'onn's head and hitting DD's body. You can argue the extent of the resistance, not the resistance itself


    I mean J'onn lost both to a DD with a mind and without in Doomsday wars but more to the point HP DD in the original story itself was sentient enough to identify Superman and Metropolis so... an explicitly weaker clone developing resistance seems proof enough of the original "adapt to everything" version doing the same especially as it was already doing so to Braniac, just more slowly


    Again you're otherwise arguing in the same thread that Moondragon along with others can barely control an unconscious weakened Thanos in the GOTG in this very thread. And here you're arguing just "connecting to his mind" for a different purpose, while she is weakened would allow her to read it? Seems like a contradiction


    Limitations enough to have the body literally start crumbling under Braniac's power.


    But just from not falling apart, DD's body can convey said power better


    Cropping some of that but basically that's a whole lot of speculation

    For me it's as simple as character with psionic abilities (Braniac) who's proven to have different powers in different bodies, specifically gets a different body for more power, does better. Or at least, Braniac's powers in each body should be judged on their own merit rather than previous standards for instance later Braniac's become universal level beings if we are going by "feats for all Braniacs through the era". If he did better in one body than the other in the story, for me that's just it, there's no need to over analyze by comparison with earlier bodies

    As for DD, he was already clearly resisting on telepath, and his whole shtick being " Adapt to stuff ", regardless of whether you believe Braniac is a better telepath, his weaker clone resisting the MMH shows that he must have "adapted" to such threats even more efficiently, since he had already adapted somewhat
    So I seem to be failing miserably in conveying accurately what I'm trying to get across. Of course, I'm American so speaking English has always been problematic for me

    Here's what I'm saying bottom line: I'm not buying that Martian Manhunter cant put the TP whammy on Doomsday, particularly if Brainiac can. Across the board, J'onn performs with the best psi's in the DC universe, save Despero and Saturn Girl. Hell, J'onn has managed to outperform six white martians TP wise and outdo Bette Noir and Dr Psycho.

    What about Clark? You're versed on Clark? How does J'onn TP'ing Clark stack up against Brainiac TP'ing Clark?

    In fact, how does Brainiac stack up to J'onn in the TP department minus Doomsday?

    Hands down, J'onn outperforms Brainiac.

    I'm just not feeling Brainiac can TP Doomsday, but J'onn cant.
    Last edited by Cronus; 07-06-2019 at 10:50 PM.
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  7. #37
    Extraordinary Member Cyke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharpandpointies View Post

    Everything else was him punching Doomsday and using Zap-Beams (rather stupidly, given the entire team had hit Doomsday with whatever energy generation powers they had and accomplished something between squat and zip).
    Respectfully disagree. Their "By Your Powers Combined" blast melted Doomsday's one last arm restraint, thereby freeing his other arm.

    That's right. The Justice League made it worse.

    (and thus concludes my only contribution in this thread)

  8. #38
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyke View Post
    Respectfully disagree. Their "By Your Powers Combined" blast melted Doomsday's one last arm restraint, thereby freeing his other arm.

    That's right. The Justice League made it worse.

    (and thus concludes my only contribution in this thread)
    ...very good point. I bow to you, sir.
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  9. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyke View Post
    Respectfully disagree. Their "By Your Powers Combined" blast melted Doomsday's one last arm restraint, thereby freeing his other arm.

    That's right. The Justice League made it worse.

    (and thus concludes my only contribution in this thread)
    Can we just talk about that feat for a second? I've got some stuff I want to get off my chest lol.

    It sets a ridiculous precedent. It's 2 Class 100's (Clark and J'onn*) + a sinestro ring + Booster Gold + Fire. Not just a quick blast either, but a rather extended one. Long enough for multiple panels to go by with characters dropping from exhaustion as they dump ALL of their power into it.

    It just feels weird that Doomsday fairly easily took that blast (as you say - it actually freed his arm while he was /smiling/ of all things) but then later starts to really feel blows from a more beat up Clark who just finally decided to "go all out".

    *you can maybe argue J'onn was not Class 100 by his feats of the era - I dont know his early post crisis stuff very well.
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  10. #40
    The Tentacle God Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Arbiter View Post
    Can we just talk about that feat for a second? I've got some stuff I want to get off my chest lol.

    It sets a ridiculous precedent. It's 2 Class 100's (Clark and J'onn*) + a sinestro ring + Booster Gold + Fire. Not just a quick blast either, but a rather extended one. Long enough for multiple panels to go by with characters dropping from exhaustion as they dump ALL of their power into it.

    It just feels weird that Doomsday fairly easily took that blast (as you say - it actually freed his arm while he was /smiling/ of all things) but then later starts to really feel blows from a more beat up Clark who just finally decided to "go all out".

    *you can maybe argue J'onn was not Class 100 by his feats of the era - I dont know his early post crisis stuff very well.
    It's almost as if you're implying they had someone job to Superman. Who would do such a thing ?!
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  11. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh View Post
    It's almost as if you're implying they had someone job to Superman. Who would do such a thing ?!
    Lol. My point being, yeah, it all kinda tasted a bit like OWAW where Clark was treated rather favorably against his peers by basically "trying harder".
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  12. #42
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Arbiter View Post
    Can we just talk about that feat for a second? I've got some stuff I want to get off my chest lol.

    It sets a ridiculous precedent. It's 2 Class 100's (Clark and J'onn*) + a sinestro ring + Booster Gold + Fire. Not just a quick blast either, but a rather extended one. Long enough for multiple panels to go by with characters dropping from exhaustion as they dump ALL of their power into it.

    It just feels weird that Doomsday fairly easily took that blast (as you say - it actually freed his arm while he was /smiling/ of all things) but then later starts to really feel blows from a more beat up Clark who just finally decided to "go all out".

    *you can maybe argue J'onn was not Class 100 by his feats of the era - I dont know his early post crisis stuff very well.
    At the time, I would struggle to say that CLARK was Class 100. They had significantly downgraded his oomph. I can't recall his exact feats of Byrne and Post-Byrne pre-Back-From-The-Dead-Powerup Era, but he really wasn't all that awesome.

    I could be wrong, as I wasn't following Superman in any detail at the time, but if you look at the entire fight sequence between him and Doomsday in the comics, there really wasn't anything actually impressive going on. They have one punch that breaks all of the windows in a few city blocks. They knock each other through a few buildings. People get thrown long distances.

    That's...all.

    We also have Doomsday slamming a car door on Beetle's head and not killing him (OMG! Brutal! Meanwhile, I'm reading this and thinking 'Wait, isn't Blue Beetle kind of...normal? How is he still alive? And why did Doomsday use a car door?'). We have Doomsday punching Ice when Ice is immobile and unconscious, and accomplishing...not a lot, save perhaps a broken rib (she's back ready to fight by the end of the battle). We have Maxima and Clark getting taken out by an exploding gas station.

    Honestly, everyone was written pretty weak-sauce.

    Later in Post-Crisis, we have people getting punched into other countries. Punched to the moon. That kind of thing. But Death of Superman? If there were any Class 100's hidden in there, I sure as heck didn't see them.
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  13. #43
    Extraordinary Member Cyke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Arbiter View Post
    Can we just talk about that feat for a second? I've got some stuff I want to get off my chest lol.

    It sets a ridiculous precedent. It's 2 Class 100's (Clark and J'onn*) + a sinestro ring + Booster Gold + Fire. Not just a quick blast either, but a rather extended one. Long enough for multiple panels to go by with characters dropping from exhaustion as they dump ALL of their power into it.

    It just feels weird that Doomsday fairly easily took that blast (as you say - it actually freed his arm while he was /smiling/ of all things) but then later starts to really feel blows from a more beat up Clark who just finally decided to "go all out".

    *you can maybe argue J'onn was not Class 100 by his feats of the era - I dont know his early post crisis stuff very well.
    Oh, fear not, I've just been so desensitized by such feats over the years thanks to Dragon Ball. Hell, both that story and DBZ both have the old cliche of "blast him with everything we've got/he's covered in smoke/no way can anyone survive that/bad guy emerges from the smoke/shocked Pikachu face" sequence.

  14. #44
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    Yeah, the Death of Superman era was not all that impressive in terms of feats. Hell, even later, at H/P Doomsday, when Clark is fighting him on the planet... Calaton maybe? Where Radiant was from? Clark specifically had to expend stupid amounts of energy and a huge runup to accelerate to mach 10. He used this to bumrush Doomsday into all of... smashing him into a wall. Which did all of... not a hell of a lot. Feats in HP were not impressive to me. The characters were impressive later in the post crisis timeframe, obviously, but not there.
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  15. #45
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyke View Post
    Oh, fear not, I've just been so desensitized by such feats over the years thanks to Dragon Ball. Hell, both that story and DBZ both have the old cliche of "blast him with everything we've got/he's covered in smoke/no way can anyone survive that/bad guy emerges from the smoke/shocked Pikachu face" sequence.
    So many times. Especially with the completely useless "spam lots of small energy blast" barrages. Has that ever worked against ANYONE?
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