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  1. #61
    Extraordinary Member The Dork Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    Each of those times require specific circumstances is all the same the thing. That's not his baseline or anywhere near it in those continuities.
    But it shows what he can achieve, enhanced by technology. So a better version of him,explicitly more powerful, beating MMH isn't really out there, despite the loss of the earlier version to Maxima, because ultimately he keeps upgrading to reach universal levels eventually
    Okay, the problem with this again, you qualified that with "J'onn up until that point." So it puts a qualifier on "which J'onn couldn't". It's an issue that you are putting a lot on this one showing where you're also qualifying the other people in it.
    I meant J'onn at the time when Maxima beat Braniac and his showings at that time (pre DoS). Subsequently the J'onn that Braniac outperformed was already a Xavier level telepath
    Okay, let me put that another way then, do you feel Maxima could no longer do what she otherwise did to him? That if they mind fought she'd lose?
    Yes

  2. #62
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    But it shows what he can achieve, enhanced by technology. So a better version of him,explicitly more powerful, beating MMH isn't really out there, despite the loss of the earlier version to Maxima, because ultimately he keeps upgrading to reach universal levels eventually
    Not really, when it takes it that far and the circumstances are things like "technology from ridiculously into the future", that doesn't translate well into extrapolating anything to the current era.

    I meant J'onn at the time when Maxima beat Braniac and his showings at that time (pre DoS). Subsequently the J'onn that Braniac outperformed was already a Xavier level telepath
    Okay, that's not at all how that read as far as how characters were getting talked about.

    Let me put it like this. You put up other stuff to show Braniac getting more powerful telepathically and what have you just now. Other than this one thing, was any of it stuff J'onn could not have done?

  3. #63
    Extraordinary Member The Dork Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    Not really, when it takes it that far and the circumstances are things like "technology from ridiculously into the future", that doesn't translate well into extrapolating anything to the current era.



    Okay, that's not at all how that read as far as how characters were getting talked about.

    Let me put it like this. You put up other stuff to show Braniac getting more powerful telepathically and what have you just now. Other than this one thing, was any of it stuff J'onn could not have done?
    I wouldn't say "could not have done" although MMH had trouble with individual characters that Braniac disposed off rather more easily like Flash, Metron, GL etc

    Braniac was also mucking around Superman's mind while unconscious, on psi dampeners... on another planet, which is maybe something J'onn might have had trouble with, and which I certainly don't see Maxima pulling off

    But I don't see the point of the argument? I thought you agreed that Braniac had few enough appearances for his performances against other telepaths not to require separate feats for?

  4. #64
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dork Knight View Post
    I wouldn't say "could not have done" although MMH had trouble with individual characters that Braniac disposed off rather more easily like Flash, Metron, GL etc

    Braniac was also mucking around Superman's mind while unconscious, on psi dampeners... on another planet, which is maybe something J'onn might have had trouble with, and which I certainly don't see Maxima pulling off

    But I don't see the point of the argument? I thought you agreed that Braniac had few enough appearances for his performances against other telepaths not to require separate feats for?
    I also noted that even within that, characters can have some junk that goes too far, like, to pick an example for a different character that has come up in this thread, that Thanos and Galactus sequence people like to trumpet (no, not the telepathy thing, the exchange of blasts thing) that honestly shouldn't be worth anything if you think about it.

    That's my point here. That this thing sort of feels problematic. So for instance if you're otherwise saying you wouldn't slap could not have done onto the other stuff, it makes the showing feel more isolated.

  5. #65
    Extraordinary Member The Dork Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    I also noted that even within that, characters can have some junk that goes too far, like, to pick an example for a different character that has come up in this thread, that Thanos and Galactus sequence people like to trumpet (no, not the telepathy thing, the exchange of blasts thing) that honestly shouldn't be worth anything if you think about it.

    That's my point here. That this thing sort of feels problematic. So for instance if you're otherwise saying you wouldn't slap could not have done onto the other stuff, it makes the showing feel more isolated.
    But unlike the Thanos /Galactus thing a) Braniac specifically got a power boost between showings and b) still has mind control across interstellar distances feats while weakened for that showing not to come across as totally out of the blue. Like Braniac, while unconscious was subconsciously screwing with Superman's mind, making him see stuff, while Supes was on earth and Braniac on New Genesis, restrained by a mother box, and in a deliberate way to attempt to make him kill people and such through illusions to "break" him. That sort of stuff doesn't feel wildly out of MMH's league especially for a character with so few appearances and constant bodies/ upgrades to then do one better than him (in a still better body)

  6. #66
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dork Knight View Post
    But unlike the Thanos /Galactus thing a) Braniac specifically got a power boost between showings and b) still has mind control across interstellar distances feats while weakened for that showing not to come across as totally out of the blue. Like Braniac, while unconscious was subconsciously screwing with Superman's mind, making him see stuff, while Supes was on earth and Braniac on New Genesis, restrained by a mother box, and in a deliberate way to attempt to make him kill people and such through illusions to "break" him. That sort of stuff doesn't feel wildly out of MMH's league especially for a character with so few appearances and constant bodies/ upgrades to then do one better than him (in a still better body)
    Look, you're kind of clicking into my problem again with the last statement once more. There's "doesn't feel wildly out of MMH's league" and there's "totally outperforms him".

  7. #67
    Extraordinary Member The Dork Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    Look, you're kind of clicking into my problem again with the last statement once more. There's "doesn't feel wildly out of MMH's league" and there's "totally outperforms him".
    Then how is "Thanos laughs off Moondragon" even remotely justified. Thanos after all has done nothing to indicate he should be literally laughing/sighing off Moondragon's psychic attack other than doing so.

    How does the one compute and not the other?

  8. #68
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dork Knight View Post
    Then how is "Thanos laughs off Moondragon" even remotely justified. Thanos after all has done nothing to indicate he should be literally laughing/sighing off Moondragon's psychic attack other than doing so.

    How does the one compute and not the other?
    Because Thanos has never NOT laughed off a psychic assault, from anyone.

    Doomsday, the dude in question here, has been dominated by one guy who, most probably feel, is generally lower tier than another guy who horribly failed at same.

    It's like if, say, Charles Xavier got bounced reading someone's mind, but Frost (or any of the hundreds of non-Chaz level telepaths are in Marvel) did it trivially. We don't try to say that Frost is over Chaz just because of that one feat. Either the target is "Frost-vulnerable" or the target is "Chaz-resistant" but you can't have both.
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  9. #69
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dork Knight View Post
    Then how is "Thanos laughs off Moondragon" even remotely justified. Thanos after all has done nothing to indicate he should be literally laughing/sighing off Moondragon's psychic attack other than doing so.

    How does the one compute and not the other?
    Well for a few reasons.

    One of them being that Thanos' resistances/will have various other showings that put them on that high end sort of scale, one of them even involves her working as a group barely keeping him in check when he's screwed up. Another being that it doesn't require him to be more powerful than Moondragon as a telepath, just to have really blinged out resistances, and I mean, in general, Thanos has really blinged out resistances.

    Another is that we're again specifically talking about performances as a telepath in the case of J'onn and Braniac. If I was trying to argue that Thanos is a more powerful telepath overall than Moondragon, and my backing for it was that while they have several showings within range of each other, but then Thanos has one that completely blows past her (he doesn't obviously, or even have ones within range of her, but I'm trying to work with your analogy), and that should do it, people should rightfully find my advancing that to have problems, even within an idea of "got stronger" that can feel nebulous.

  10. #70
    Extraordinary Member The Dork Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_adventure View Post
    Because Thanos has never NOT laughed off a psychic assault, from anyone.
    Obviously not true since Galactus wrecked him. Moondragon and co kept him down in Thanos imperative and Moondragon read his mind while weakened in Annihilation


    Doomsday, the dude in question here, has been dominated by one guy who, most probably feel, is generally lower tier than another guy who horribly failed at same.
    With the specific caveat that the other guy is now more powerful, and is specifically better than Jonn mentally in the same story

    It's like if, say, Charles Xavier got bounced reading someone's mind, but Frost (or any of the hundreds of non-Chaz level telepaths are in Marvel) did it trivially. We don't try to say that Frost is over Chaz just because of that one feat. Either the target is "Frost-vulnerable" or the target is "Chaz-resistant" but you can't have both.
    No it's more like if Charles got bounced by someone who Frost controls, while it's explicitly noted that Frost is more powerful than before and shown to be mentally superior to Charles in an unrelated incident in the same story

  11. #71
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Obviously not true since Galactus wrecked him. Moondragon and co kept him down in Thanos imperative and Moondragon read his mind while weakened in Annihilation
    Once again, that last thing isn't relevant on the level of psychic assault, and that second thing is Moondragon having to work as part of a group. I know you're responding to "has never not laughed off a psychic assault", but two of your examples are of dubious provenance to your point.

  12. #72
    Extraordinary Member The Dork Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    Well for a few reasons.

    One of them being that Thanos' resistances/will have various other showings that put them on that high end sort of scale, one of them even involves her working as a group barely keeping him in check when he's screwed up. Another being that it doesn't require him to be more powerful than Moondragon as a telepath, just to have really blinged out resistances, and I mean, in general, Thanos has really blinged out resistances.
    Didn't you make the point yourself about Thanos' TP stuff being totally something we should consider separately and generously given minimal appearances but now it gets grouped together with some general "resistance"?

    When neither are anything but fractional to the main characters of their universes, they occupy a similar situation and the difference is basically a matter of degree. You're not losing some point of logic when that gets noted.

    Especially, and specifically, and again there's another thing where I note this, in the case of something like Thanos' telepathic capacity.
    Another is that we're again specifically talking about performances as a telepath in the case of J'onn and Braniac. If I was trying to argue that Thanos is a more powerful telepath overall than Moondragon, and my backing for it was that while they have several showings within range of each other, but then Thanos has one that completely blows past her (he doesn't obviously, or even have ones within range of her, but I'm trying to work with your analogy), and that should do it, people should rightfully find my advancing that to have problems, even within an idea of "got stronger" that can feel nebulous.
    Right so in DD wars, which is where the controversy comes from, Brainiac controlling DD is only one part of the argument, the other being he also blocks Jonns mental scan while controlling DD. It's not just the one thing, they are two separate things.

    And even if you want to ignore controlling Flash, one shotting Metron and GL and all such comparative performances against other folks, there's still interplanetary mental shenanigans while restrained AND explicit note about becoming more powerful.

    So we have
    A) Actually blocks Jonn mentally
    B)Better performances against folks Jonn has trouble with , outright controlling DD for example
    C) actual interplanetary mental feats unrelated to fights
    D) explicit power up

    Idk how much more you can expect from a character with basically one story arc of about 4-5 issues over 6 years between pre DoS losing to Maxima and DD wars when he outperforms Jonn
    Last edited by The Dork Knight; 07-09-2019 at 02:41 PM.

  13. #73
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Didn't you make the point yourself about Thanos' TP stuff being totally something we should consider separately and generously given minimal appearances but now it gets grouped together with some general "resistance"?
    Considering I'm the guy arguing no to saying Thanos' telepathy is anywhere Xavier scale, where did you get generously? Also, I referred to Thanos' capacity for walking through mindblasts and the like with his resistances a whole bunch of posts ago:

    I mean let's not go wacky, dude's resistances are high up there just fine.
    I certainly said it's otherwise hard to weigh because almost all we ever see him do with it is put the whammy on someone. Honestly, even if Cronus had pulled out a different Thanos mind battle win over Moondragon than the one with the big ol asterisks, my response was going to skew to "eeeeeeeeeehhhhhhhhhhhhh".

    And even if you want to ignore controlling Flash, one shotting Metron and GL and all such comparative performances against other folks, there's still interplanetary mental shenanigans while restrained AND explicit note about becoming more powerful.
    Dude, when I asked, you're the one who said you wouldn't say such things are under "could not have done" for J'onn. I'm starting to feel like this is turning into less of a debate about characters and more about each other's given intentions when typing a particular thing.

    Right so in DD wars, which is where the controversy comes from, Brainiac controlling DD is only one part of the argument, the other being he also blocks Jonns mental scan while controlling DD. It's not just the one thing, they are two separate things.
    That's starting to feel like you're trying to get by on breaking up a sequence to individual components.
    Last edited by Pendaran; 07-09-2019 at 04:12 PM.

  14. #74
    Death of Time Cronus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dork Knight View Post
    I understand perfectly. Your arguments boil down to "Can DD's feats as a sentient clone be transferred to a mindless HP DD". Well yes arguably, given HP literally has this

    https://i.postimg.cc/8kK9RvwR/image.jpg
    Wrong. As I said, the so called feat from Superman 175 should be dismissed in the way you're trying to spin it here. Where is the dialogue or narration indicating that version of Doomsday developed any TP resistance? There isnt any.

    Just you.

    And your speculation.

    And Jonn faced both this exact DD by the same writer, and one with a "mind" controlled by Braniac, before he faced the DD clone
    ...the difference being Brainiac is explicitly a telepath. But "Sentient" does not translate to "TP resistant".

    The second part of your argument relies on reading the comic in a way that makes no sense and strains painfully to arrive at "nah DD doesn't get TP resistance feats" any which way , by analysing individual panels, and even then ultimately having to concede DD resisted to some extent
    I never conceded that point. I presented my interpretation of Superman 175, then logically fleshed out your interpretation. The scan can be interpreted a number of ways and is too ambiguous to be used as proof of much, especially in the way of TP resistance.

    Again, the first part about feats not transferring over across different versions would have made sense.... if only you were not otherwise arguing for earlier versions of Braniac being comparable to whatever he did later. There's a contradiction there then to claim various versions of DD don't transfer feats but various versions of Braniac (in explicitly different bodies no less) do
    This isnt complicated. But you're making it that way. There was the PIS ridden moment in SSDD Wars where Jonn totally couldn't detect another psi...because he's too arrogant to check for that kind of thing according to the story. Despite the fact that he's done it before. This according to you, translates perfectly to Jonn failing at controlling a different version of Doomsday (in 2001) altogether...with no explicit resistance to TP mind you because HP Doomsday said, "mutropoliss".

    Another bridge waayyy to far.


    Clark stacks up fairly well at times.

    https://m.imgur.com/a/TrlgF

    To which you might say, well the MMH has way better feats and that's Clark jobbing him out.
    To which I'd say, "what is this supposed to be a scan of?"

    I'd agree, but it's you who's deciding by the arbitrary metric of "performances against Superman" not me. So I hope you do not shift the goalposts after this....
    Why would I need to when you haven't made a point here worth refuting?


    Just as one example, MMH has had difficulty controlling Flashes
    A load of crap that I'm sure you dont believe particularly all the times Gorilla Grodd was successful doing it.

    , needing Wally to slow down enough to control him, while Braniac controlled Flash just fine (while also controlling DD) in DD wars
    Where did Brainiac in DDs body TP Flash?

    Not when Braniac's other bodies do stuff like spread their consciousness all over the universe and remake it in their image

    https://i.postimg.cc/MqWDzgsQ/image.jpg
    https://i.postimg.cc/jSnfk6Rz/image.jpg
    To which I would inquire as to which version of Brainiac that is and while im at it, Jonn resisting the Spectre probing him telepathically...next to a furnace... should also be admissible.

    So here we are back to where we started. "braniac's stuff doesn't count because he doesn't have feats, Thanos' however totally do"
    Yeah, I conceded Thanos was not superior to Moondragon at offensive TP a while ago. My last mention of Thanos was pointing out that Thanos allowed Moondragon to connect to his mind.

    Braniac and DD have never had any solo titles, Thanos has had many, yet you're not once asking for Thanos doing anything like controlling millions of folks to justify the performance against Moondragon yet Braniac must have feats despite having a fraction of Thanos' appearances
    ......haven't argued for Thanos TP superiority in a bit now...

    Braniac's performances across various bodies totally count (except when they don't) but DD's stronger versions do not get the feats of the weaker ones
    You're putting words in my mouth at this point.

    Yeah, all I'm getting from you so far is to arrive at "But DD cannot resist TP " any which way, contradicting your own arguments to do so.
    On the contrary, I'm pointing out the many flaws in your argument that Brainiac is somehow superior to Jonn and you inferring mysterious power sets for Doomsday based on PIS ridden scans and your speculation added to it.
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  15. #75
    Death of Time Cronus's Avatar
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    Okay this bit here...

    Quote Originally Posted by The Dork Knight View Post
    Moondragon and co kept him down in Thanos imperative
    Context shows he was in a "mindless berserker rage", not to mention physically restrained after his resurrection, but at one point broke free...after being talked down by Rocket Racoon, then willingly submitted to mental and physical bonds...yet combined, Cosmo. Mantis and Moondragon failed to read his mind.

    and Moondragon read his mind while weakened in Annihilation
    And I pointed out that Thanos willingly allowed Moondragon into his mind to find out Annihilus "end game" plans. Moondragon managed to glean that Thanos had a fail safe to release Galactus...and he promptly kicked her out of his head with "Enough!"
    Last edited by Cronus; 07-10-2019 at 01:15 AM.
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