H/P Doomsday vs Thanos

[The Arbiter]

Yeah, the Death of Superman era was not all that impressive in terms of feats. Hell, even later, at H/P Doomsday, when Clark is fighting him on the planet... Calaton maybe? Where Radiant was from? Clark specifically had to expend stupid amounts of energy and a huge runup to accelerate to mach 10. He used this to bumrush Doomsday into all of... smashing him into a wall. Which did all of... not a hell of a lot. Feats in HP were not impressive to me. The characters were impressive later in the post crisis timeframe, obviously, but not there.

I mean, the million + nuke thing didnt suck. Nor the omega beams.

Where did he say mach 10? I remember that feat but thought he only said "build up speed" or whatever.

[The Dork Knight]

So I seem to be failing miserably in conveying accurately what I'm trying to get across. Of course, I'm American so speaking English has always been problematic for me

I understand perfectly. Your arguments boil down to "Can DD's feats as a sentient clone be transferred to a mindless HP DD". Well yes arguably, given HP literally has this

https://i.postimg.cc/8kK9RvwR/image.jpg

And Jonn faced both this exact DD by the same writer, and one with a "mind" controlled by Braniac, before he faced the DD clone

The second part of your argument relies on reading the comic in a way that makes no sense and strains painfully to arrive at "nah DD doesn't get TP resistance feats" any which way , by analysing individual panels, and even then ultimately having to concede DD resisted to some extent

Again, the first part about feats not transferring over across different versions would have made sense.... if only you were not otherwise arguing for earlier versions of Braniac being comparable to whatever he did later. There's a contradiction there then to claim various versions of DD don't transfer feats but various versions of Braniac (in explicitly different bodies no less) do

What about Clark? You're versed on Clark? How does J'onn TP'ing Clark stack up against Brainiac TP'ing Clark?

Clark stacks up fairly well at times.

https://m.imgur.com/a/TrlgF

To which you might say, well the MMH has way better feats and that's Clark jobbing him out. I'd agree, but it's you who's deciding by the arbitrary metric of "performances against Superman" not me. So I hope you do not shift the goalposts after this....

In fact, how does Brainiac stack up to J'onn in the TP department minus Doomsday?

Just as one example, MMH has had difficulty controlling Flashes, needing Wally to slow down enough to control him, while Braniac controlled Flash just fine (while also controlling DD) in DD wars

Hands down, J'onn outperforms Brainiac.

Not when Braniac's other bodies do stuff like spread their consciousness all over the universe and remake it in their image

https://i.postimg.cc/MqWDzgsQ/image.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/jSnfk6Rz/image.jpg

I'm just not feeling Brainiac can TP Doomsday, but J'onn cant.

So here we are back to where we started. "braniac's stuff doesn't count because he doesn't have feats, Thanos' however totally do"

Braniac and DD have never had any solo titles, Thanos has had many, yet you're not once asking for Thanos doing anything like controlling millions of folks to justify the performance against Moondragon yet Braniac must have feats despite having a fraction of Thanos' appearances

Braniac's performances across various bodies totally count (except when they don't) but DD's stronger versions do not get the feats of the weaker ones

Yeah, all I'm getting from you so far is to arrive at "But DD cannot resist TP " any which way, contradicting your own arguments to do so.

[Pendaran]

Braniac and DD have never had any solo titles, Thanos has had many, yet you're not once asking for Thanos doing anything like controlling millions of folks to justify the performance against Moondragon yet Braniac must have feats despite having a fraction of Thanos' appearances

Just on this, it's not like his series really ever run that long. Him and Braniac certainly probably don't have that big a gap between them, relatively speaking, for "times they actually did something". Braniac having a more overall longer sustained career vs Thanos having these bursts of focus depending on when the character gets some popularity.

edit, with that said, doing another pass:

Not when Braniac's other bodies do stuff like spread their consciousness all over the universe and remake it in their image

https://i.postimg.cc/MqWDzgsQ/image.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/jSnfk6Rz/image.jpg

Okay, Braniac in his Braniac 13 mode should very much be a mix of special circumstances and "bridge too far, even for limited showings", with an additional helping of "yeah, but OWAW".

[moonknight11]

Just on this, it's not like his series really ever run that long. Him and Braniac certainly probably don't have that big a gap between them, relatively speaking, for "times they actually did something". Braniac having a more overall longer sustained career vs Thanos having these bursts of focus depending on when the character gets some popularity.

I wouldn't otherwise say either are in a place where you can do much beyond look at such things and try to figure out as best you can, like a much more expansive Count Nefaria situation.

It's weird comparing DC and Marvel longevity when DC reboots so much and they're characters are divided explicitly into eras. I mostly agree tho. Thanks may have solos, but a bunch of his minis seem to be stuck in some weird noncanon Starlin area.

[The Dork Knight]

Just on this, it's not like his series really ever run that long. Him and Braniac certainly probably don't have that big a gap between them, relatively speaking, for "times they actually did something". Braniac having a more overall longer sustained career vs Thanos having these bursts of focus depending on when the character gets some popularity.

Umm.... no. All of post crisis Braniac's extremely varied appearances taken together, from circus freak to a collector of worlds numbers about 120. Thanos is currently at 400 + , having been at roughly " Avengers buster" level from day 1. There's a clear difference, he's more comparable to post crisis Darkseid (400+) as a DC/Marvel wide villain than a character specific villain

I have no problem with Thanos being given the TP feats, since he also has some other performances (against other folks mostly but still TP is not his primary power). My problem being more with a character with clearly fewer appearances not being given the same privilege

Okay, Braniac in his Braniac 13 mode should very much be a mix of special circumstances and "bridge too far, even for limited showings", with an additional helping of "yeah, but OWAW".

Ok but then you still have regular Braniac taking over the universe in the Legion's future towards the end of New Krypton, the same Braniac later bottles up worlds from different universes and helps recreate the multiverse in Convergence. Braniacs tend to become over the top all powerful beings in future timelines, if we are counting all versions of Braniac, which apparently we are

[Sharpandpointies]

Yeah, the Death of Superman era was not all that impressive in terms of feats. Hell, even later, at H/P Doomsday, when Clark is fighting him on the planet... Calaton maybe? Where Radiant was from? Clark specifically had to expend stupid amounts of energy and a huge runup to accelerate to mach 10. He used this to bumrush Doomsday into all of... smashing him into a wall. Which did all of... not a hell of a lot. Feats in HP were not impressive to me. The characters were impressive later in the post crisis timeframe, obviously, but not there.

At some point, DC decided they had nerfed Superman too much with the Post-Crisis reboot, and went through a series of comics showing him starting toward what we consider his Post-Crisis level of power. Power-creep then ensued, but there was an actual in-story reason why his overall heft suddenly rocketed upward.

[big_adventure]

I mean, the million + nuke thing didnt suck. Nor the omega beams.

Where did he say mach 10? I remember that feat but thought he only said "build up speed" or whatever.

Oh, I completely agree - I was really more going with "there was a lot of weak stuff mixed with some things that are really strong, enough so that we kind of have to use where DC went AFTER that period to really judge post-crisis feats."

At some point, DC decided they had nerfed Superman too much with the Post-Crisis reboot, and went through a series of comics showing him starting toward what we consider his Post-Crisis level of power. Power-creep then ensued, but there was an actual in-story reason why his overall heft suddenly rocketed upward.

It's funny, really, given that DC did the whole COIE thing specifically to bring the powerscale back down (if everyone is a multi-planet-buster with massively FTL reflexes, there just aren't any more planets to stand on), then went "oops" and jacked it back up. It's like they had a clairvoyant moment where they were seeing Superman losing Death Battles on YouTube to Hulk or something, said "not on my watch" and reversed course.

[Sharpandpointies]

It's funny, really, given that DC did the whole COIE thing specifically to bring the powerscale back down (if everyone is a multi-planet-buster with massively FTL reflexes, there just aren't any more planets to stand on), then went "oops" and jacked it back up. It's like they had a clairvoyant moment where they were seeing Superman losing Death Battles on YouTube to Hulk or something, said "not on my watch" and reversed course.

It was a trifle bizarre. But I expect Superman getting taken out by exploding gas stations (to lean on one example) wasn't really feeling all that 'super'. He also couldn't fly around the world quickly, couldn't really fly too far into space (needing to hold his breath, and couldn't do so for a long period), etc.

So then boom, he goes through a weird metamorphosis and suddenly gets a massive power-up.

Which had the side effect of him losing the mullet, as I recall, so thank goodness for small favours.

[big_adventure]

Which had the side effect of him losing the mullet, as I recall, so thank goodness for small favours.

And you say that as a Canadian! :-)

[Sharpandpointies]

And you say that as a Canadian! :-)

We had nothing to do with that eyesore.

Blah.

[Pendaran]

Umm.... no. All of post crisis Braniac's extremely varied appearances taken together, from circus freak to a collector of worlds numbers about 120. Thanos is currently at 400 + , having been at roughly " Avengers buster" level from day 1. There's a clear difference, he's more comparable to post crisis Darkseid (400+) as a DC/Marvel wide villain than a character specific villain

I have no problem with Thanos being given the TP feats, since he also has some other performances (against other folks mostly but still TP is not his primary power). My problem being more with a character with clearly fewer appearances not being given the same privilege

In how many of those appearances do you think Thanos did anything in terms of an actual performance is my point there. Braniac, as someone's regular rogues gallery person, by contrast to fewer showings, generally when he shows up, does a thing, for showing up as someone else's villain. Relatively speaking it's comparable is what I'm saying. Neither, compared to something like a character who anchors their own regular running series, has shown up that much in the grand scheme of things.

Also, you're conflating me with Cronus at this point. At what point in my posts have I done anything but go "who overall has been depicted as the stronger telepath?", if I've questioned a showing of Braniac's, it has been in that context, or, say, pointing to B13 things.

Also, I'm the one who came into this thread to note "you can't say Thanos is offensively some kind of Xavier level telepath really", so what privilege am I not extending to who ;p I've been pretty consistent here, I'd think.

Ok but then you still have regular Braniac taking over the universe in the Legion's future towards the end of New Krypton, the same Braniac later bottles up worlds from different universes and helps recreate the multiverse in Convergence. Braniacs tend to become over the top all powerful beings in future timelines, if we are counting all versions of Braniac, which apparently we are

We're counting all versions of Braniac according to who? Also, you're getting well off the note of "Braniac's telepathy" here. All of those things involve really specific situations and particular context within them.

I'm talking here about Braniac's telepathy and the depiction of its strength in contrast to J'onn's telepathy and the depiction of its strength, without, say, really specific situational factors.

[The Dork Knight]

In how many of those appearances do you think Thanos did anything in terms of an actual performance is my point there.

About as many as Braniac did probably cuz I sure as heck don't remember 120 appearances for that guy, it probably includes all guidebooks and one panel cameos and such. But the ratio of appearances is probably correct, Braniac has a fraction of Thanos' appearances. This you cannot deny. I mean off the top of my head Thanos has had 50 odd issues with his name on the title, Braniac none. That was enough for you to judge Deathstroke's stats for instance

Braniac, as someone's regular rogues gallery person, by contrast to fewer showings, generally when he shows up, does a thing, for showing up as someone else's villain. Relatively speaking it's comparable is what I'm saying. Neither, compared to something like a character who anchors their own regular running series, has shown up that much in the grand scheme of things.

And yet it's just straight up wrong to suggest they are comparable characters when Thanos has 3 times the appearances. Thanos even accounting for that he may not always be the main villain, on sheer no of appearances alone has way many more feats than Braniac, you don't even need to compare appearances from DC or Marvel wikis, even a layman can tell you Thanos is, relatively, featured way more than Braniac

Further Braniac's powers fluctuate in bodies, not to mention DC's slow power creep from post COIE to Flashpoint. It's simply not fair to say they are comparable characters.

Also, you're conflating me with Cronus at this point. At what point in my posts have I done anything but go "who overall has been depicted as the stronger telepath?",

A question I've answered already- Braniac's powers change with bodies such that he explicitly had to get a new one because the old one was falling apart under his powers.
https://i.postimg.cc/pdCGcQVx/image.jpg
https://m.imgur.com/a/j44w7

Further, as to who is the stronger telepath? It's unclear enough for J'onn up to that point in the comics for Braniac being better to not come off as a big issue with a character like him switching bodies and with limited showings

if I've questioned a showing of Braniac's, it has been in that context, or, say, pointing to B13 things.

B-13 is nothing but a future Braniac, literally teaming up with current Braniac

Also, I'm the one who came into this thread to note "you can't say Thanos is offensively some kind of Xavier level telepath really", so what privilege am I not extending to who ;p I've been pretty consistent here, I'd think.

Ok but I'd like to say compared to Thanos Braniac actually has better independent non telepath related TP feats for his performances against Telepaths to be justified

We're counting all versions of Braniac according to who? Also, you're getting well off the note of "Braniac's telepathy" here.

Well according to Cronus and... you I guess, since you are asking for previous showings of Braniac despite as noted his power fluctuations

All of those things involve really specific situations and particular context within them.

I'm talking here about Braniac's telepathy and the depiction of its strength in contrast to J'onn's telepathy and the depiction of its strength, without, say, really specific situational factors.

Braniac's TP is amplified by his tech, ergo over time with his tech getting better his showings like turning the universe red in the Legion story from New Krypton with Braniac 5 saying stuff like "the universe is Braniac" Or the B13 stuff comes across as not so different from using mind control or spreading consciousness and such, B13 for instance was controlling a city through tech in a way that made it indistinguishable from mind control

[Pendaran]

About as many as Braniac did probably cuz I sure as heck don't remember 120 appearances for that guy,

Okay, that's again the only thing I'm saying. You seem to feel like I'm advocating for some different standard of measuring them that would default exempt Braniac's showings when the post I said that you replied to in the first place on this said:

Him and Braniac certainly probably don't have that big a gap between them, relatively speaking, for "times they actually did something".

And yet it's just straight up wrong to suggest they are comparable characters when Thanos has 3 times the appearances. Thanos even accounting for that he may not always be the main villain, on sheer no of appearances alone has way many more feats than Braniac, you don't even need to compare appearances from DC or Marvel wikis, even a layman can tell you Thanos is, relatively, featured way more than Braniac

Further Braniac's powers fluctuate in bodies, not to mention DC's slow power creep from post COIE to Flashpoint. It's simply not fair to say they are comparable characters.

When the end result is "both of them thus can really only be taken at what showings they have and one has to do the best they can to work something out of them", in what way is it not fair? I compared them both to being basically upjumped versions of Count Nefaria, what is it you think I'm saying when I do that?

When neither are anything but fractional to the main characters of their universes, they occupy a similar situation and the difference is basically a matter of degree. You're not losing some point of logic when that gets noted.

Especially, and specifically, and again there's another thing where I note this, in the case of something like Thanos' telepathic capacity.

A question I've answered already- Braniac's powers change with bodies such that he explicitly had to get a new one because the old one was falling apart under his powers.

That doesn't really answer it I guess I'm saying. Said another way, if the big issue is that his old body was falling apart or that kind of thing, if he's in a body that isn't, wouldn't his showings while his bodies are intact establish some kind of throughline?

Further, as to who is the stronger telepath? It's unclear enough for J'onn up to that point in the comics for Braniac being better to not come off as a big issue with a character like him switching bodies and with limited showings

My problem with this line of reasoning as far as "up to that point in the comics" is that if you're saying it becomes clearer later is that it makes dubious using the idea of Doomsday thus resisting J'onn for all that much. Certainly it's fine for resisting Thanos, whose offensive telepathy is really only all that good in the grand scheme of things. But for anything beyond that? You get into problems that way. I'm not really arguing Thanos vs Doomsday telepathically here. I kiiinda… don't care about that. I'm noting overall an issue with taking Braniac's telepathy at a certain level of strength that seems to be implied for it here as difficult.

Ok but I'd like to say compared to Thanos Braniac actually has better independent non telepath related TP feats for his performances against Telepaths to be justified

Alright, let me put it like this, are you saying that taking later J'onn stuff into account, he becomes clearer as the better telepath? Similarly buddy has stuff like losing out to Maxima when not boosted. Certainly Maxima herself is no telepathic slouch, but it feels like thus there's some kind of line to look at there for having to ponder.

B-13 is nothing but a future Braniac, literally teaming up with current Braniac

Part of his deal was being upgraded by being future Braniac.

Braniac's TP is amplified by his tech, ergo over time with his tech getting better his showings like turning the universe red in the Legion story from New Krypton with Braniac 5 saying stuff like "the universe is Braniac" Or the B13 stuff comes across as not so different from using mind control or spreading consciousness and such, B13 for instance was controlling a city through tech in a way that made it indistinguishable from mind control

Again, that points to that Braniac 13 is special circumstances Braniac when he's thus from far in the future or otherwise, from far in the future. Also there's a difference of sheer scale between a city and a universe. You'd basically have to be trying to argue that Braniac is a cosmic abstract at this point, at which point his having any trouble with Doomsday or really anyone would be absurd. (I'm going to note here that if you're going to refer to Thanos and note contrasting treatment, Thanos also has a couple of general showings that even within the problems of weighing stuff are ultimately too good for the guy in my own view, not telepathic ones, but they're still out there and problematic)

Okay, let me try this another way: Braniac vs Xavier in a mind fight, how do you feel that would go? This is not a question that should really have a ton of bearing on Doomsday vs Thanos' telepathy. That's not what I'm dealing with here.

[The Dork Knight]

That doesn't really answer it I guess I'm saying. Said another way, if the big issue is that his old body was falling apart or that kind of thing, if he's in a body that isn't, wouldn't his showings while his bodies are intact establish some kind of throughline?

Except even after getting that new body he just kept getting more powerful, even starting to control people while in a coma
https://i.postimg.cc/DZTCXVNY/IMG-20190710-000125.jpg

Alright, let me put it like this, are you saying that taking later J'onn stuff into account, he becomes clearer as the better telepath?

Yes but as seen in the scan above Braniac himself got more powerful from his Panic in the Sky days

Similarly buddy has stuff like losing out to Maxima when not boosted. Certainly Maxima herself is no telepathic slouch, but it feels like thus there's some kind of line to look at there for having to ponder.

Again, Braniac actually explicitly got more powerful post Maxima loss

Again, that points to that Braniac 13 is special circumstances Braniac when he's thus from far in the future or otherwise, from far in the future. Also there's a difference of sheer scale between a city and a universe. You'd basically have to be trying to argue that Braniac is a cosmic abstract at this point, at which point his having any trouble with Doomsday or really anyone would be absurd.

My explanation for that would be Braniac always had the potential to become a universal level villain, and he's done so in at least 3 different continuities, and there's an in comic explanation for progressively getting more powerful and technologically more advanced

Okay, let me try this another way: Braniac vs Xavier in a mind fight, how do you feel that would go?

Based on the last, ever increasing in power version of Braniac in DD's body that actually had TP as his main thing as opposed to technopathy? Braniac is more powerful because of the showing vs Jonn and controlling Doomsday which J'onn couldn't

[Pendaran]

My explanation for that would be Braniac always had the potential to become a universal level villain, and he's done so in at least 3 different continuities, and there's an in comic explanation for progressively getting more powerful and technologically more advanced

Each of those times require specific circumstances is all the same the thing. That's not his baseline or anywhere near it in those continuities.

Based on the last, ever increasing in power version of Braniac in DD's body that actually had TP as his main thing as opposed to technopathy? Braniac is more powerful because of the showing vs Jonn and controlling Doomsday which J'onn couldn't

Okay, the problem with this again, you qualified that with "J'onn up until that point." So it puts a qualifier on "which J'onn couldn't". It's an issue that you are putting a lot on this one showing where you're also qualifying the other people in it.

Again, Braniac actually explicitly got more powerful post Maxima loss

Okay, let me put that another way then, do you feel Maxima could no longer do what she otherwise did to him? That if they mind fought she'd lose?