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  1. #16
    Extraordinary Member The Dork Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cronus View Post
    The version of Doomsday you indicate in the first link is from Superman 175...written by Loeb. That whole interaction was strange. Jonn appears to hit him with some TP shenanigans...then physically engaged him. Doomsday speaks and Jonn, surprised, exclaims, "Sentient!"
    Yes but if we are considering what Jonn says we have to consider what DD says as well. And DD quite clearly tells him to get out of his head

    So Jonn attempted to " Get in his head" and it didn't work before there was any physical contact

    So...Jonn didnt discern this right away? At any rate I took that to mean that Jonn's surprise caused him to stop with the TP, at which point...bye bye Jonn.
    It also means that Jonn's initial TP attack didn't work since DD gets the chance to speak out afterwards instead of instantly becoming his thrall

    As far as the second link, that is from the issue mini...Brainiac maintained control of Doomsday for most of those books...a significant period of time...despite his indicating degree of difficulty....so, eh.
    Actually I rechecked. Braniac never got a chance to use the extra support. It was all him, but it was through a mind transfer
    https://i.postimg.cc/pLWcwpvF/RCO087.jpg

    As to the third, wasn't the reason for Brainiacs superiority due to the same device that helped him maintain control of Doomsday throughout that arc?
    Crucially the mind transfer was on Doomsday not J'onn such that a psi blocker immediately ended control over DD. Ergo it couldn't have been a factor on any mental interactions with J'onn

    Besides he clearly was using TP in this story on his own
    https://i.postimg.cc/Yqwsxdy8/RCO078.jpg

    So to recap- J'onn's mental attack didn't work on a weaker clone, and even a stronger telepath than J'onn was having trouble keeping control of the real deal, even after a literal mind transfer, a process that was supposed to "destroy" any trace of the creature's mind

  2. #17
    Extraordinary Member The Dork Knight's Avatar
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    DD also resisted commands from WW's lasso which J'onn couldn't.

    https://i.postimg.cc/kMSH80wB/RCO047.jpg
    https://m.imgur.com/94E2CDm

    I suppose you could attribute that to Braniac instead but either way it shows Braniac was a stronger telepath than J'onn or DD has greater resistance than J'onn.

    The lasso has also broken mental control on numerous occasions yet it didn't do so for DD

  3. #18
    Death of Time Cronus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dork Knight View Post
    Yes but if we are considering what Jonn says we have to consider what DD says as well. And DD quite clearly tells him to get out of his head

    So Jonn attempted to " Get in his head" and it didn't work before there was any physical contact
    I respectfully disagree. Jonn was already in Doomsday's head or else Doomsday wouldn't have told him to get out. But he was definitely inside Doomsday's head. Again, I read that whole exchange to mean this: J'onn got inside Doomsday's head, Doomsday speaks and J'onn realizes he's not dealing with the mindless, rampaging monster he has always dealt with in the past. This surprise allows newly evolved, sentient Doomsday to get his mits on J'onn and the rest is clearly indicated in your scan.


    It also means that Jonn's initial TP attack didn't work since DD gets the chance to speak out afterwards instead of instantly becoming his thrall
    Disagree completely as I can think of examples with Superman, for example, who was being controlled telepathically, yet was able to speak and resist to some degree, even if little. Yet clearly, Clark was under mental domination (I'm thinking Despero in JLA). So, being able to speak is not conclusive evidence that one is not being mentally dominated.


    Actually I rechecked. Braniac never got a chance to use the extra support. It was all him, but it was through a mind transfer
    https://i.postimg.cc/pLWcwpvF/RCO087.jpg
    Very true. I re-read the issues myself. The intent was to use a techno-chemical assist so DD's mind wouldn't constantly be fighting Brainiac. It never happened because Doomsday reacted to quickly for the two Coluans to do what needed to be done.


    Crucially the mind transfer was on Doomsday not J'onn such that a psi blocker immediately ended control over DD. Ergo it couldn't have been a factor on any mental interactions with J'onn
    Yes, also true as the story unfolded. The same psi blocker Clark used at the beginning of the story to block Fine also worked later in the story to interrupt Brainiac's control of Doomsday.

    Besides he clearly was using TP in this story on his own
    https://i.postimg.cc/Yqwsxdy8/RCO078.jpg

    So to recap- J'onn's mental attack didn't work on a weaker clone,
    Agree to disagree for reasons I mention above.

    and even a stronger telepath than J'onn was having trouble keeping control of the real deal,
    And here is the part where I'm having trouble with all this: the idea that Brainiac (Milton Fine Brainiac) is a more powerful telepath that J'onn. Maxima, was able dominate Fine with TP. In fact, IIRC, wasn't Maxima faking being controlled by the enhanced Brainiac and biding her time to strike later? I seem to remember something like that in that story.

    EDIT: just checked Action Comics 674 and 675. Maxima was already faking being controlled by Brainiac.

    And I don't recall Maxima being a dominant telepath. In fact, she tried to exert influence of Clark once but failed because Eradiactor was already controlling him.

    even after a literal mind transfer, a process that was supposed to "destroy" any trace of the creature's mind
    It was the techno chemical assist that was supposed to do that, not the transferring of Brainiac's psi essence per se.

    I suppose in all this I'm saying I'm having difficulty believing the version of Brainiac used to control Doomsday in SSDD Wars (Fine) is a powerful enough telepath to block Martian Manhunter as he did in that story line, and also be able to throw off the effects of WW's lasso. Just seems like a big stretch. The Martian, has you likely recall has some pretty impressive TP feats, one's I've never seen (Fine) Brainiac replicate.

    But even if we say that version of Brainiac sits at the same table as what? Saturn Girl? Dr Psycho? Is he superior to Thanos as a telepath? That might be a stretch if we accept that Thanos indeed defeated Moondragon, a powerful telepath in her own right, who I surmise is on par with someone like MM or Xavier. Xavier was unable to control a very angry Hulk in WW Hulk, yet as mentioned earlier, Thanos controlled Hulk telepathically something Xavier was incapable of doing in WW Hulk story line. Also, it took Cable with Storm's assistance to muck about with an angry Hulk's mind way back in the Onslaught storyline. Also, maybe worth mentioning Dr Strange has been pushed out of Hulk's mind as well by Hulk. Honorable mentions: Thanos controls the Fallen One and mind whammy's the post retconned Beyonder. I might be forgetting one or two more, but I think Thanos is a more formidable offensive telepath than he is given credit for.
    Last edited by Cronus; 07-05-2019 at 12:01 AM.
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  4. #19
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    But even if we say that version of Brainiac sits at the same table as what? Saturn Girl? Dr Psycho? Is he superior to Thanos as a telepath? That might be a stretch if we accept that Thanos indeed defeated Moondragon, a powerful telepath in her own right, who I surmise is on par with someone like MM or Xavier. Xavier was unable to control a very angry Hulk in WW Hulk, yet as mentioned earlier, Thanos controlled Hulk telepathically something Xavier was incapable of doing in WW Hulk story line.
    That was a storyline where Emma Frost of all people could psi block Xavier and basically shut him down as an active factor despite his wishes. He was not exactly being portrayed at his best. Taking that storyline as some especially valid portrayal of Chaz doesn't track considering what he's done in other places.

    Also, it took Cable with Storm's assistance to muck about with an angry Hulk's mind way back in the Onslaught storyline.
    It's not like that was Jesus Mode Cable, so that's not really a grand showing of requiring tons of oomph.

    Also, maybe worth mentioning Dr Strange has been pushed out of Hulk's mind as well by Hulk.
    No, not really, considering Strange himself has managed to take Moondragon to a mutual KO in a mind duel.

    I might be forgetting one or two more, but I think Thanos is a more formidable offensive telepath than he is given credit for.
    Eh. "He mind controlled the Hulk" is not the way to promote his offensive telepathy as being on some Xavier scale of things. He has it, it's decently potent, it's hard to weigh because almost his only showings ever of it are basically putting the whammy on someone. If he actually managed to take out Moondragon in a psi duel, that might be something.

    Thanos controls the Fallen One and mind whammy's the post retconned Beyonder.
    The Maker, while powerful, was only /so/ powerful, which was kind of the specific point of them. Their oomph was limited by the form they occupied.
    Last edited by Pendaran; 07-04-2019 at 10:28 PM.

  5. #20
    Death of Time Cronus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    That was a storyline where Emma Frost of all people could psi block Xavier and basically shut him down as an active factor despite his wishes. He was not exactly being portrayed at his best. Taking that storyline as some especially valid portrayal of Chaz doesn't track considering what he's done in other places.



    It's not like that was Jesus Mode Cable, so that's not really a grand showing of requiring tons of oomph.



    No, not really, considering Strange himself has managed to take Moondragon to a mutual KO in a mind duel.



    Eh. "He mind controlled the Hulk" is not the way to promote his offensive telepathy as being on some Xavier scale of things. He has it, it's decently potent, it's hard to weigh because almost his only showings ever of it are basically putting the whammy on someone. If he actually managed to take out Moondragon in a psi duel, that might be something.



    The Maker, while powerful, was only /so/ powerful, which was kind of the specific point of them. Their oomph was limited by the form they occupied.
    As usual, good points all

    But, the duel with Moondragon in Captain Marvel 31...wasn't that a telepathic duel that Thanos won?
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  6. #21
    Extraordinary Member The Dork Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cronus View Post
    I respectfully disagree. Jonn was already in Doomsday's head or else Doomsday wouldn't have told him to get out.
    He was already in DD's head and threw a punch yet DD stopped him. At the very least DD's resistance to J'onn's punch was unaffected by J'onn getting in his head. Or in other words, "getting in his head" helped him not at all in the physical fight

    https://i.postimg.cc/BZDHQv8Z/RCO020.jpg

    So, being able to speak is not conclusive evidence that one is not being mentally dominated.
    But being able to resist the physical attack accompanying the mental attack is evidence

    Agree to disagree for reasons I mention above.
    But what exactly do you disagree with? Clearly DD used telepathy on Superman in the scan there

    Besides that, DD continuing to resist while J'onn is "in his head" shows DD's resistance to TP

    And here is the part where I'm having trouble with all this: the idea that Brainiac (Milton Fine Brainiac) is a more powerful telepath that J'onn.
    Yeah ok. Firstly that's not Milton Fine Braniac, that's Braniac after he got a new body. Secondly the whole shtick with Braniac and Milton Fine was that his TP was limited by the body, which was improved upon in every version, DD representing the latest upgrade

    https://m.imgur.com/a/j44w7

    The Martian, has you likely recall has some pretty impressive TP feats, one's I've never seen (Fine) Brainiac replicate.
    I think it's interesting to talk about a dude who has so few appearances and in them constantly switches bodies, having no non fight TP feats of note when your entire argument for Thanos seems to rest on "he did well against X telepath". When did Thanos control millions on a planet to justify the stuff against Moondragon?

  7. #22
    Extraordinary Member The Dork Knight's Avatar
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    Also the Moondragon mind war thing followed from after he had the cosmic cube in his hand though it's unclear if he actually used it

    https://i.postimg.cc/FHkynXpZ/image.jpg

    Since we are comparing performances, it's worth noting in Annihilation itself Moondragon read his mind even in a weakened state

    https://i.postimg.cc/YCyp0JBJ/image.jpg
    Last edited by The Dork Knight; 07-05-2019 at 09:07 AM.

  8. #23

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    Thanos has also (briefly) invaded Galactus' mind. Yes, he was forcibly cast out in short order, but he at least got a rise out of the guy.

    Edit: Actually, upon reflection, Moondragon set up that particular mental Skype call between them, didn't she?
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  9. #24
    The Tentacle God Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Arbiter View Post
    Thanos has also (briefly) invaded Galactus' mind. Yes, he was forcibly cast out in short order, but he at least got a rise out of the guy.

    Edit: Actually, upon reflection, Moondragon set up that particular mental Skype call between them, didn't she?
    Yea the "Let's become one, Thanos" was different.
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  10. #25
    Death of Time Cronus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dork Knight View Post
    He was already in DD's head and threw a punch yet DD stopped him. At the very least DD's resistance to J'onn's punch was unaffected by J'onn getting in his head. Or in other words, "getting in his head" helped him not at all in the physical fight

    https://i.postimg.cc/BZDHQv8Z/RCO020.jpg
    Previously, you said this:

    Quote Originally Posted by The Dork Knight View Post
    Yes but if we are considering what Jonn says we have to consider what DD says as well. And DD quite clearly tells him to get out of his head

    So Jonn attempted to " Get in his head" and it didn't work before there was any physical contact
    Not sure which one to go with here, but here is what I said and still stick by:

    I respectfully disagree. Jonn was already in Doomsday's head or else Doomsday wouldn't have told him to get out. But he was definitely inside Doomsday's head. Again, I read that whole exchange to mean this: J'onn got inside Doomsday's head, Doomsday speaks and J'onn realizes he's not dealing with the mindless, rampaging monster he has always dealt with in the past. This surprise allows newly evolved, sentient Doomsday to get his mits on J'onn and the rest is clearly indicated in your scan.
    Later in the same story (Superman 175), we see Clark's conversation with the Martian:

    Superman 175.jpg

    So clearly, Jonn was inside sentient Doomsday's head. Once he was inside and ascertained Doomsday was sentient, it gave Doomsday the pause he needed to bring down the Martian.


    But being able to resist the physical attack accompanying the mental attack is evidence
    As I mentioned, I don't see that specifically as proof of much given the context of Superman 175. As the scan above clearly indicates, Jonn appeared more interested in discovering what was motivating Doomsday to attack and "SURPRISE!", that he was sentient. He even tells Clark, "he's learning". As far as PIS moments go, and given it was Jeph Loeb, not a bad cover over for J'onn not explicitly trying to control Doomsday from the get go. But that wouldn't work on Rumbles since there is no PIS.


    But what exactly do you disagree with? Clearly DD used telepathy on Superman in the scan there

    Besides that, DD continuing to resist while J'onn is "in his head" shows DD's resistance to TP
    Again, the evidence indicates that J'onn wasn't trying to control him but was more interested in what was going on inside his mind.

    Yeah ok. Firstly that's not Milton Fine Braniac, that's Braniac after he got a new body.
    Sure, details, details and what not.

    Secondly the whole shtick with Braniac and Milton Fine was that his TP was limited by the body, which was improved upon in every version, DD representing the latest upgrade

    https://m.imgur.com/a/j44w7
    So the link you provide from Action 649, Fine's body was indeed improved upon to moderate Fine's resisting of Brainiac taking him over and the new body. But Fine also had latent psionic abilities. So how was Doomsday's body an upgrade from the one shown in Action 649, Doomsday's original body or the one Brainiac planned on growing? What indication is there that either of these was a psionic uprgrade over Fine's?


    I think it's interesting to talk about a dude who has so few appearances and in them constantly switches bodies, having no non fight TP feats of note when your entire argument for Thanos seems to rest on "he did well against X telepath". When did Thanos control millions on a planet to justify the stuff against Moondragon?
    I don't have a problem with scaling if that's what you're driving at....although, I'm still interested in Pendaran's evaluation of the fight in Captain Marvel 31 between Moondragon and Thanos. And I'm cool with it if the board is saying the feat in CM 31 isn't legit.

    My problem is the evidence being used to indicate Brainiac is a more powerful telepath than Martian Manhunter. You use a scan from Superman 175, a sentient Doomsday who according to you, can just flat out resist one of the most powerful telepaths in the DC universe. As well, that was not the mindless, raging Doomsday that the (edit: not Clark) JLA was used to.

    WW to DD.jpg

    WW to DD 2.jpg

    So, J'onn, overconfident according to Brainiac, failed to notice the different psyche: he didn't get the raging monster he was searching for. As well, the Doomsday from Superman 175 was not the raging creature J'onn or anyone was used to, but a thinking, reasoning being.

    Additionally, the clone you pointed out in OWAW was the raging creature J'onn was used to. As an aside, I seem to remember some discussion on these very forums some time ago as to whether Black Adam in WWIII legitimately pushed J'onn out of his enraged mind. Maybe I'm mis-remembering, but I thought we decided that was a bit of PIS for J'onn as well.

    I just don't feel comfortable saying Brainiac is a more powerful telepath the Martian Manhunter.
    Last edited by Cronus; 07-05-2019 at 03:40 PM.
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  11. #26
    Death of Time Cronus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dork Knight View Post
    Also the Moondragon mind war thing followed from after he had the cosmic cube in his hand though it's unclear if he actually used it

    https://i.postimg.cc/FHkynXpZ/image.jpg
    Yeah, there is no indication that he did.

    Since we are comparing performances, it's worth noting in Annihilation itself Moondragon read his mind even in a weakened state

    https://i.postimg.cc/YCyp0JBJ/image.jpg
    So, Thanos allowed Moondragon to connect to his mind.
    Last edited by Cronus; 07-05-2019 at 04:10 PM.
    "I know you're in there Banner. I'll get you out!"
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    "Well what's it look like now?"
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  12. #27
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    I don't have a problem with scaling if that's what you're driving at....although, I'm still interested in Pendaran's evaluation of the fight in Captain Marvel 31 between Moondragon and Thanos. And I'm cool with it if the board is saying the feat in CM 31 isn't legit.
    He's holding the cosmic cube in that instance, that's a giant asterisk. I thought you might have been referring to something else instead.

    Since we are comparing performances, it's worth noting in Annihilation itself Moondragon read his mind even in a weakened state
    That doesn't really mean much considering that when she tries stuff like full out mindblast, the result is straight up nothing. I mean let's not go wacky, dude's resistances are high up there just fine.
    Last edited by Pendaran; 07-05-2019 at 03:44 PM.

  13. #28
    Death of Time Cronus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    He's holding the cosmic cube in that instance, that's a giant asterisk. I thought you might have been referring to something else instead.
    Fair enough. I could see that too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    That doesn't really mean much considering that when she tries stuff like full out mindblast, the result is straight up nothing. I mean let's not go wacky, dude's resistances are high up there just fine.
    Yup. The stuff from GoTG, Moondragon, Mantis and Cosmo were unable to breach a decidedly weakened Thanos just back from the dead and they did all of doodly and squat pretty much.
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  14. #29
    Extraordinary Member The Dork Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cronus View Post
    Previously, you said this:

    Not sure which one to go with here, but here is what I said and still stick by:
    If semantics over what "getting in his head" is all you've got, that's not much of an argument really.
    J'onn punches DD, DD catches the punch. J'onn being inside DD's head doesn't stop him from catching the punch. Ergo "getting in his mind" didn't work

    So clearly, Jonn was inside sentient Doomsday's head. Once he was inside and ascertained Doomsday was sentient, it gave Doomsday the pause he needed to bring down the Martian.
    Except there is no "pause" in the actual comic. DD is literally catching J'onn's punch before J'onn ascertained he was sentient. That's just.... the comic

    I mentioned, I don't see that specifically as proof of much given the context of Superman 175. As the scan above clearly indicates, Jonn appeared more interested in discovering what was motivating Doomsday to attack and "SURPRISE!", that he was sentient.
    Except again you're simply ignoring the comic where J'onn specifically says " you'll harm no one else" before clearly launching a TP attack on him
    https://i.postimg.cc/B6yCRMrW/RCO019.jpg
    Did he forget the bit you think, or was he simply beaten? Was the telepath trying to find DD's "motivation" through the good ol fashioned Batman school of "punch him till he confesses"?
    Again, the evidence indicates that J'onn wasn't trying to control him but was more interested in what was going on inside his mind.
    Yes, clearly the punching, " You'll harm no one else" and quite explicit TP waves coming from his head were him trying to find out about DD's thoughts and feelings

    Sure, details, details and what not.
    It's strange to see how uninterested you are in details when you can otherwise base whole arguments off single panels it seems

    So the link you provide from Action 649, Fine's body was indeed improved upon to moderate Fine's resisting of Brainiac taking him over and the new body. But Fine also had latent psionic abilities. So how was Doomsday's body an upgrade from the one shown in Action 649, Doomsday's original body or the one Brainiac planned on growing? What indication is there that either of these was a psionic uprgrade over Fine's?
    It wasn't just Fine's resistance. His body was literally falling apart under Braniac's power and was unable to house him
    https://i.postimg.cc/pdCGcQVx/image.jpg

    Even limited as he was by the body, it's worth noting Milton Fine's very contact with Braniac was through an interstellar psionic search, albeit at the cost of his mind breaking down
    https://i.postimg.cc/NMWzRsfr/IMG-20190706-070204.jpg

    So it's not like he was as lacking in power as he turned out to be on earth in Fine's body because of the limitations.

    In that sense, DD's body represents an upgrade plain and simple, simply by virtue of it being even more durable than his last one

    So, J'onn, overconfident according to Brainiac, failed to notice the different psyche: he didn't get the raging monster he was searching for.
    Except J'onn (or the JLA) were not looking for DD... they just found him. They didn't know the nature of the threat because Braniac hid it from them. There's a pretty big lead up to "hmm what could be causing this destruction? " before they finally get to DD. J'onn even went ahead

    I just don't feel comfortable saying Brainiac is a more powerful telepath the Martian Manhunter.
    It doesn't matter if Braniac's latest upgrade was more powerful than J'onn, what matters is in the context of the story it required someone more adept than J'onn to control DD.

    Which, taken with J'onn's failure to stop the clone from "harming no one else" despite starting with a TP attack proves it takes more than regular MMH to stop DD. I don't think the same can be equated with Black Adam, since the HP DD appeared in all of 2 minis and maybe an issue in OWAW, with his whole shtick being "the same thing doesn't work twice".... TP in this case

  15. #30
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    I'm not really.. much invested in anything else going on here, but just on this:

    It doesn't matter if Braniac's latest upgrade was more powerful than J'onn, what matters is in the context of the story it required someone more adept than J'onn to control DD.
    The thing here would be that if indeed in general Braniac is a less powerful telepath than J'onn, a showing where he's a comparatively more powerful one has a bit of an off quality.

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