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  1. #76
    Extraordinary Member The Dork Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    Dude, when I asked, you're the one who said you wouldn't say such things are under "could not have done" for J'onn. I'm starting to feel like this is turning into less of a debate about characters and more about each other's given intentions when typing a particular thing.
    It's not but then what would a telepath with few appearances have to do to be considered better than Jonn? Folks like Despero and Starro have nothing but comparative showings

    To put it another way since you yourself used the Count Nefaria comparison when has he done anything Thor couldn't other than the performance against Thor? When have a bunch of bricks say even Doomsday?

    Wonder Woman lifts mountains DD never has? Does this make Doomsday thrashing Diana bunk?

    I might add that in addition to blocking Jonns thoughts, an controlling DD's body which Jonn couldn't, Braniac also resisted WW's lasso which Jonn couldn't. Which, combined with non fight related stuff like mind control from another planet while unconscious is surely enough to justify an explicitly more powerful Braniac being more powerful than Jonn, in his latest body

    That's starting to feel like you're trying to get by on breaking up a sequence to individual components.
    I don't see how? Braniac controlled Doomsday, and later while fighting the Justice League while controlling Doomsday he blocked J'onn's telepathy

    These are two separate things. Unless you mean by same "sequence", same story. In which case yeah sure, after all the guy appears in like 3 "stories/sequences" total to that point
    Last edited by The Dork Knight; 07-10-2019 at 01:39 AM.

  2. #77
    Extraordinary Member The Dork Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cronus View Post
    Okay this bit here...

    But failed to read his mind.
    because his own mind didn't know it? Because he prepped to keep his own mind unaware?

    https://m.imgur.com/pM6MRb5

    And I pointed out that Thanos willingly allowed Moondragon into his mind to find out Annihilus "end game" plans. Moondragon managed to glean that Thanos had a fail safe to release Galactus...and he promptly kicked her out of his head with "Enough!" You are grossly misunderstanding what you're reading.
    Meanwhile she also said only YOU can free Galactus.
    https://i.postimg.cc/4d5K7ncK/image.jpg

    The fail safe kicked in to prevent her from finding more, except even weakened by bug infestation she read it. Why do some parts of the comic count and not the other? After all the fail safe is specifically to keep that information from anyone but Thanos

    Also again you're arguing Moondragon with 2 telepaths can't read unconscious Thanos' mind but Moondragon weakened by bug infestation and protected by a failsafe can still read from Thanos' mind exactly what he wanted to keep ONLY to himself. Again you're debating yourself

  3. #78
    Extraordinary Member The Dork Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cronus View Post
    Wrong. As I said, the so called feat from Superman 175
    The scan is not from Superman 175. The scan is from Hunter Prey. Your whole argument to this point was
    I'm saying J'onn's realization that Doomsday was sentient and his surprise is what allowed Doomsday to press his physical assault and defeat J'onn, hence the "pause" I was referring to.
    That DD was sentient so Jonn got surprised. But DD was already coherent enough to say Metropolis by Hunter Prey itself. The same writer then had the same Doomsday face Jonn on the moon in DD wars (which Jonn lost)

    Therefore the idea of a "sentient" DD being alien to Jonn and being responsible for his loss is questionable.

    should be dismissed in the way you're trying to spin it here. Where is the dialogue or narration indicating that version of Doomsday developed any TP resistance? There isnt any.
    DD literally said "get out of my head" while actively fighting (and defeating) Jonn physically while Jonn was "in his head"
    Just you
    And your speculation.
    It's funny because I'm the one sticking to the dialogue in the book and NOT making up theories on Jonns loss being due to surprise at DD's sentience. Some might almost call that "speculation"
    ...the difference being Brainiac is explicitly a telepath. But "Sentient" does not translate to "TP resistant".
    So you disgree with yourself as of post 32
    We are still left with J'onn's obvious surprise at a talking, sentient Doomsday now applying physical pressure, and fire, to a guy with a psychosomatic weakness to the same. In essence, we'd have to argue that Doomsday's "resistance" was as much the combination of J'onn's surprise and Doomsday's physical assault as much as any mental "resistance"
    It's one thing to disagree with me, another to disagree with yourself. Repeatedly at this point

    So which is it? Jonns surprise at DD's sentience allowed him to bounce the TP? Or the surprise/sentience played no role in " TP resistance"? Make up your mind already
    Also
    ...the difference being Brainiac is explicitly a telepath. But "Sentient" does not translate to "TP resistant".
    What does that have to do with " Sentience "? Is Braniac not sentient? Are telepaths not sentient?Are you simply shifting the goalposts again then? So now you mean " Yea what I mean is that Jonn didn't face a DD with a mind except that one time he did, but that was telepath so that's not sentient? "
    Has "sentience" ceased to be the crux of your argument now?

    I never conceded that point. I presented my interpretation of Superman 175, then logically fleshed out your interpretation. The scan can be interpreted a number of ways and is too ambiguous to be used as proof of much, especially in the way of TP resistance.
    Yes you did
    Following the panels, it could be argued that Doomsday managed enough mental resistance to raise a hand, catch J'onn's punch and say,"Get out of my head Martian."
    This sequence comes before the "sentience", before the physical blows, before the fire. That's just the comic

    This isnt complicated. But you're making it that way. There was the PIS ridden moment in SSDD Wars where Jonn totally couldn't detect another psi...because he's too arrogant to check for that kind of thing according to the story. Despite the fact that he's done it before. This according to you, translates perfectly to Jonn failing at controlling a different version of Doomsday (in 2001) altogether...with no explicit resistance to TP mind you because HP Doomsday said, "mutropoliss".
    This would make sense if you were not using past ,explicitly weaker versions of Braniac to determine that it's inconsistent PIS in the first place

    Why does strong Braniac get judged by weak Braniac but strong DD not by weak DD? Can you answer that question please?

    To which I'd say, "what is this supposed to be a scan of?"
    Superman's unconscious mind pushing out MMH?
    Why would I need to when you haven't made a point here worth refuting?
    Yeah. Far better to debate yourself I know. Because so far all you've done is dispute your own previous claims
    A load of crap that I'm sure you dont believe particularly all the times Gorilla Grodd was successful doing it.
    No I believe it just fine. Flash isn't particularly all that hard to control unless he's going extra fast mind speed wise. It comes off as PIS that MMH struggles with him at times. But if you're going to use " How did Braniac do against character X (say Clark) vs how Jonn did" as an argument, then backing out of it when it doesn't go according to plan, comes off as agenda driven rather than any actual desire for discourse
    Where did Brainiac in DDs body TP Flash?
    Doomsday Wars when he uses it to choke out Kyle? Have you actually read the book? He also says he could have controlled "anybody" in the chamber, including Jonn, if that helps
    https://i.postimg.cc/CKD9JgPs/RCO111.jpg

    To which I would inquire as to which version of Brainiac that is and while im at it, Jonn resisting the Spectre probing him telepathically...next to a furnace... should also be admissible.
    Not even remotely since Jonn doesn't have amped up future versions with basically one off appearances for that to not contrast starkly with the rest of his career
    Yeah, I conceded Thanos was not superior to Moondragon at offensive TP a while ago. My last mention of Thanos was pointing out that Thanos allowed Moondragon to connect to his mind.
    I'm not talking about Thanos' offensive stuff. Why does he even get the defensive stuff? When has he done anything on Moondragon's scale? Shouldn't it be PIS, according to your logic for how Braniac and Jonn compare? Or is Thanos somehow an exception that doesn't require separate feats?

    ......haven't argued for Thanos TP superiority in a bit now...
    Yet you repeatedly point out Jonn is one of the top TP folks of DC and his feats. Similarly Moondragon for Marvel. You rightly ask for Braniac's feats to show he's better. Yet you never ask for anything to justify Thanos resisting. How does that even work except as a clearly biased argument?

    You're putting words in my mouth at this point.
    You're debating yourself again. You explicitly use Milton Fine's performances and Panic in the Sky as a marker for an explicitly stronger later versions. You do not allow the stronger HP Doomsday to get weaker Superman 175 DD's feats however

    On the contrary, I'm pointing out the many flaws in your argument that Brainiac is somehow superior to Jonn and you inferring mysterious power sets for Doomsday based on PIS ridden scans and your speculation added to it.
    I'm inferring nothing. You're the one with the theories. Like dude... read your own posts. And point out any one 'theory"so far supplied by me as compared to you.

    Idk what your idea of PIS even is, since you only selectively use weaker versions as markers (for Braniac) but then explicitly reject the same for others (DD). You say Thanos needs no showings to justify TP resistance but Braniac despite having a fraction of his appearances and an explicit power up, absolutely must have better TP showings than Jonn for that to be a thing

    You're literally not debating me, you're debating yourself so far
    Last edited by The Dork Knight; 07-10-2019 at 01:31 AM.

  4. #79
    Extraordinary Member The Dork Knight's Avatar
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    Welp I think we can lay the controversy to rest once and for all. So basically when Braniac was brain dead and restrained on New Genesis, on earth Superman's corpse was found still in the coffin he was buried in post Death. People ran tests on that and DNA showed that was the real Superman while Mulletman was the fake. Then the dead body seemingly returned to life and was seen by many folks and for a while we had two Superman running around. It was of course just Braniac screwing with people's minds but I didn't realize he would have to do it to everyone not just Superman. So basically he brainwashed the whole planet while himself unconscious, brain dead on another planet

    Here's a better explanation from the comic

    https://i.postimg.cc/3Jtc902P/image.jpg
    https://i.postimg.cc/HkjPNW2j/image.jpg

    So yeah that seems better than Jonns stuff

  5. #80
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dork Knight View Post
    It's not but then what would a telepath with few appearances have to do to be considered better than Jonn? Folks like Despero and Starro have nothing but comparative showings

    To put it another way since you yourself used the Count Nefaria comparison when has he done anything Thor couldn't other than the performance against Thor? When have a bunch of bricks say even Doomsday?

    Wonder Woman lifts mountains DD never has? Does this make Doomsday thrashing Diana bunk?

    I might add that in addition to blocking Jonns thoughts, an controlling DD's body which Jonn couldn't, Braniac also resisted WW's lasso which Jonn couldn't. Which, combined with non fight related stuff like mind control from another planet while unconscious is surely enough to justify an explicitly more powerful Braniac being more powerful than Jonn, in his latest body


    I don't see how? Braniac controlled Doomsday, and later while fighting the Justice League while controlling Doomsday he blocked J'onn's telepathy

    These are two separate things. Unless you mean by same "sequence", same story. In which case yeah sure, after all the guy appears in like 3 "stories/sequences" total to that point
    Doomsday thrashing Diana would kind of depend on which Doomsday, and beyond that gets into the weeds of things like Diana's superspeed to Doomsday's comparative not, the things that have managed to hurt Doomsday, and the like. Unless you're talking Hunter/Prey, I suppose.

    Braniac also resisted WW's lasso which Jonn couldn't.
    That doesn't really speak to them as telepaths.

    As far as being considered better than J'onn? Let me put that another way. If across showings from different comics spread out from each other, a guy is not better than J'onn, but in this one case he is, by a loooooot, that's a problem. I don't really feel it's asking for a lot here to at least get another one.

    Welp I think we can lay the controversy to rest once and for all. So basically when Braniac was brain dead and restrained on New Genesis, on earth Superman's corpse was found still in the coffin he was buried in post Death. People ran tests on that and DNA showed that was the real Superman while Mulletman was the fake. Then the dead body seemingly returned to life and was seen by many folks and for a while we had two Superman running around. It was of course just Braniac screwing with people's minds but I didn't realize he would have to do it to everyone not just Superman. So basically he brainwashed the whole planet while himself unconscious, brain dead on another planet
    Okay! This then is actually something to stack with the other stuff. I realize that it's the internet and it can be hard to parse rhetorical question from actual question from text posts, but when I post stuff like "who then is portrayed as the better telepath generally", that is what I'm asking. I am looking for things. I'm not specifically always trying to crush someone's point.
    Last edited by Pendaran; 07-11-2019 at 02:58 PM.

  6. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    I'm not specifically always trying to crush someone's point.
    LIAR!

    *curls up and weeps atop mountain of broken arguments - arms curled lovingly around God Blasted Durok*
    "So full of hate were our eyes
    That none of us could see
    Our war would yield countless dead
    But never victory
    So let us cast arms aside
    And like discard our wrath
    Thou, in faith, will keep us safe
    Whilst we find the path"

    -The Covenant Writ of Union

  7. #82
    Death of Time Cronus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dork Knight View Post
    The scan is not from Superman 175. The scan is from Hunter Prey. Your whole argument to this point was
    ....

    I referred specifically to Superman 175 as a lead in to my point...but okay.

    That DD was sentient so Jonn got surprised. But DD was already coherent enough to say Metropolis by Hunter Prey itself. The same writer then had the same Doomsday face Jonn on the moon in DD wars (which Jonn lost)
    Just so I clarify what you mean...are you saying Jonn lost in a TP battle with DD on the moon in SSDD Wars? Just so I'm following your train of thought...

    But more on this point of coherency...has HP Doomsday ever demonstrated greater coherency since then? I mean your theory about the clone from Superman 175 is fascinating...but for now, my question relates specifically to HP Doomsday...

    Therefore the idea of a "sentient" DD being alien to Jonn and being responsible for his loss is questionable.
    DD literally said "get out of my head" while actively fighting (and defeating) Jonn physically while Jonn was "in his head"
    You seem to be ignoring the fact that Jonn commenced with TP...of some sort...then assaulted him first. Dont you think it's odd that Jonn was able to glean anything at all from Doomsdays mind particularly when Maxima did it long ago? I mean Jonn shouldn't have been able to do it right?

    It's funny because I'm the one sticking to the dialogue in the book and NOT making up theories
    In fact, your interpretation of Superman 175...and this unsteady bridge of theories, complete with duct tape, is all you gave. Theories.

    on Jonns loss being due to surprise at DD's sentience. Some might almost call that "speculation"
    Hey you're the one hanging your hat on this book...with a clone no less. But it is fascinating.

    So you disgree with yourself as of post 32

    It's one thing to disagree with me, another to disagree with yourself. Repeatedly at this point
    I think you're just misunderstanding what I'm telling you.

    So which is it? Jonns surprise at DD's sentience allowed him to bounce the TP? Or the surprise/sentience played no role in " TP resistance"? Make up your mind already
    I told you what I thought from the beginning.

    Also

    What does that have to do with " Sentience "? Is Braniac not sentient? Are telepaths not sentient?Are you simply shifting the goalposts again then? So now you mean " Yea what I mean is that Jonn didn't face a DD with a mind except that one time he did, but that was telepath so that's not sentient? "
    My point is the clone seems to have fallen woefully short of displaying actual telepathic prowess. When HP Doomsday was controlled by Brainiac, actually used offensive TP. He should've been able to do this and then some as soon as Jonn engaged him with telepathy.

    Also noteworthy...when HP Doomsday was sentient while controlled by Brainiac, he was not concerned about "fear of pain" as he pummelled Superman into paste, but the sentient clone was....and Superman was clearly far superior to this clone. As many times as Clark has tangoed with Doomsday, and following your logic, shouldn't the clone have been far superior to Jonn telepathically and far superior to Clark physically?

    But that's not what we see. Also...there is not much disparity between Clark and Jonn physically...but that is what Loeb was getting across.


    Yes you did
    My turn. No I didnt. I was following your thought. Conceding means I actually agree. I dont.

    This sequence comes before the "sentience", before the physical blows, before the fire. That's just the comic
    Hey you're welcome to make your case on this extraordinarily ambiguous feat...regarding a clone. I'm not buying it.

    This would make sense if you were not using past ,explicitly weaker versions of Braniac to determine that it's inconsistent PIS in the first place
    You were the one that claimed Doomsdays body was somehow an upgrade telepathically to the recombinant DNA body of Fine/Coluan. Fine at least had some latent psychic powers.

    Why does strong Braniac get judged by weak Braniac but strong DD not by weak DD? Can you answer that question please?
    (Edit>)because he's a clone that if we follow your logic, should have virtual TP immunity How is a clone, engineered with kryptonian DNA translate to TP immunity, aside from your conjecture?


    Superman's unconscious mind pushing out MMH?
    Oh so let's go with that and ignore that...off the top of my head...Jonn has pushed an entirely conscious Clark onto the astral plane, and otherwise controlled him and the league...while he was possessed by Ma'alfa'ak? Or speaking of clones, do I need to mention what Fernus did to Clark, Wally and the rest of the league? Or mention the other bazillion times Clark has struggled with telepaths that lack Jonns loonnggg list of TP feats?

    Yeah. Far better to debate yourself I know. Because so far all you've done is dispute your own previous claims

    No I believe it just fine. Flash isn't particularly all that hard to control unless he's going extra fast mind speed wise. It comes off as PIS that MMH struggles with him at times. But if you're going to use " How did Braniac do against character X (say Clark) vs how Jonn did" as an argument, then backing out of it when it doesn't go according to plan, comes off as agenda driven rather than any actual desire for discourse
    So Flash was controlled by Brainiac. He's been dropped by Jonn. Grodd. How this means Brainiac is somehow superior to Jonn is beyond me.

    Doomsday Wars when he uses it to choke out Kyle? Have you actually read the book? He also says he could have controlled "anybody" in the chamber, including Jonn, if that helps
    https://i.postimg.cc/CKD9JgPs/RCO111.jpg
    Okay do again he controls Flash. How does this demonstrate his superiority over Jonn, minus his braggadocio?


    Not even remotely since Jonn doesn't have amped up future versions with basically one off appearances for that to not contrast starkly with the rest of his career
    Oh so you do recognize PIS moments in books, just not when you're trying to make a point in your favor.

    I'm not talking about Thanos' offensive stuff. Why does he even get the defensive stuff? When has he done anything on Moondragon's scale?
    Because most of Moondragons notable feats are assault oriented while much of Thanos' is defensive?

    Shouldn't it be PIS, according to your logic for how Braniac and Jonn compare? Or is Thanos somehow an exception that doesn't require separate feats?
    Part of the problem is the closest we come to a direct match between Brainiac and Jonn is in the first book of SSDD Wars where the combination of a psi blocker and Jonns "arrogance" combine to deceive Jonn? How many times has Jonn detected other psis... and occasionally, psis who were trying to hide from him? Its baloney.

    Thanos and Moondragon have met multiple times.


    Yet you repeatedly point out Jonn is one of the top TP folks of DC and his feats. Similarly Moondragon for Marvel. You rightly ask for Braniac's feats to show he's better. Yet you never ask for anything to justify Thanos resisting. How does that even work except as a clearly biased argument?
    You're unwilling to accept Thanos, virtually outside his mind, resisting 3 telepaths successfully, then there's not much I can do to help you. Why are you always trying to lowball Thanos is a better question. If there is anyone here with an agenda its you.

    You're debating yourself again. You explicitly use Milton Fine's performances and Panic in the Sky as a marker for an explicitly stronger later versions. You do not allow the stronger HP Doomsday to get weaker Superman 175 DD's feats however
    And I've explained to you very clearly numerous contradictions that dont add up in that book. And keep ignoring me.

    I'm inferring nothing. You're the one with the theories. Like dude... read your own posts. And point out any one 'theory"so far supplied by me as compared to you.
    This is why the key book in your assessment should be thrown out...too many theories can be formulated to fit anyone's agenda. Stop pushing it off as something usable for Rumbles.

    Idk what your idea of PIS even is, since you only selectively use weaker versions as markers (for Braniac) but then explicitly reject the same for others (DD).
    So which versions should we be using? If I say Brainiac...from Action 649 through the SSDD wars..which one is the most powerful? What's your answer?

    to You say Thanos needs no showings to justify TP resistance
    ...never said that...

    but Braniac despite having a fraction of his appearances and an explicit power up, absolutely must have better TP showings than Jonn for that to be a thing
    You're literally not debating me, you're debating yourself so far
    Again you're putting words in my mouth. But I welcome an explanation to my question: how do the versions of Brainiac mentioned immediately above demonstrate feats beyond MM consistently?
    Last edited by Cronus; 07-12-2019 at 01:01 PM.
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  8. #83
    Death of Time Cronus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dork Knight View Post
    ...The fail safe kicked in to prevent her from finding more, except even weakened by bug infestation she read it. Why do some parts of the comic count and not the other? After all the fail safe is specifically to keep that information from anyone but Thanos

    Also again you're arguing Moondragon with 2 telepaths can't read unconscious Thanos' mind but Moondragon weakened by bug infestation and protected by a failsafe can still read from Thanos' mind exactly what he wanted to keep ONLY to himself. Again you're debating yourself
    ....

    So the "failsafe" that is being discussed between Thanos and Moondragon is not a telepathic failsafe. The failsafe being discussed is the device Thanos built into the machine keeping Galactus in his bonds and as a cosmic battery fueling Annihilus' armada. That "failsafe" was keyed to Thanos' energy signature. When Drax killed Thanos, Moondragon flipped because freeing Galactus was their only hope of defeating Annihilus' armada.

    So, what we see then between Thanos and Moondragon in my previous scan is Thanos allowing Moondragon into his mind so she could convey what she gleaned from Annihilus' mind, what his intentions were. While in Thanos' mind, Moondragon gleaned that Thanos had in place this "failsafe" keyed to Thanos' energy signature. When Thanos became aware she discovered he had a fail safe in place, he promptly kicked Moondragon out of his mind. But she was in Thanos' mind in the first place BECAUSE Thanos allowed her to be there. Which is why some find it impressive that ultimately, it was the Silver Surfer that was able to manifest the energy necessary (to replicate Thanos' energy signature) to free Galactus and ultimately turn the tide of battle in favor of the rebels.
    Last edited by Cronus; 07-13-2019 at 03:11 PM.
    "I know you're in there Banner. I'll get you out!"
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    "Would you give a guy a foot massage?"
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    "You said clear."
    "I said it looks clear."
    "Well what's it look like now?"
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  9. #84
    Death of Time Cronus's Avatar
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    So, it may be worth mentioning in Action Comics 900, Luthor had acquired Doomsday's body. This body was evidently "dumb" Doomsday again returned from a timeline before he gained sentience. If we count that that Doomsday is the same one previously acquired by Dr Psycho during Infinite Crisis, then we have a creature that was directly controlled by a fairly powerful telepath. Later in Action 903, we see Eradictor (a telepath) controlling Doomsday's mind, having "leapt" into the alien tech Luthor attached to the creature's body, learning to "drive" (evidently, finding his way around the alien tech).

    At any rate, while I understand the train of thought being presented by DK, I disagree with it ultimately. The dialogue in the books from SSDD Wars makes it clear the writer was relying on "J'onn's arrogance" as much as Brainiac's telepathic defense to keep from being detected by Martian Manhunter, who I think most will agree, has far better feats consistently than Brainiac.

    It may be worth noting that Maxima was superior to Brainiac in the "Panic in the Sky" in a direct telepathic confrontation. Contrast this with, the only time I recall Maxima and J'onn squaring off telepathically, J'onn appeared to be the superior telepath (from JLA Taskforce)....

    Jonn and Maxima.jpg

    More than anything else, the obvious PIS moment in SSDD Wars 1, Brainiac "duping" J'onn and the ambiguous scan from Superman 175, which isn't usable for much, should be ignored in making an assessment as to who the better telepath is between J'onn and Brainiac. Part of DK's argument relies on the telepathic "energy" emanating from J'onn and directed toward sentient Doomsday in that book. But we see something similar with Despero and J'onn way back in Justice League 40

    Despero fight with Jonn.jpg

    However, Despero was clearly not trying to telepathically control J'onn as much as convey imagery

    Despero fight with Jonn 2.jpg

    Can Doomsday adapt to telepathy? Maybe? Maybe it can be argued that telepathy is too complex an esoteric for Doomsday to adapt too.
    "I know you're in there Banner. I'll get you out!"
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    "Would you give a guy a foot massage?"
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    "I said it looks clear."
    "Well what's it look like now?"
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