Why are there next to no Italian American superheroes?

[JackDaw]

I dont know why there is this big push to make everyone feel included in comics any way. I can understand not wanting to have all white heroes and wanted to include African American heroes. But why the big push to have gay heroes or Jewish heroes? Does it really add that much to the story? When has Ben Grimm ever gone to temple in The Fantastic Four? When has Northstar gone to a pride rally. I know they did his wedding and that was cool to see. But in the end it really doesnt change my enjoyment of the characters to know what religion they are or if they are gay. Does it really matter that much when Ben belts Dr Doom that he is Jewish? Does it change things that much? I am a gay male and I dont feel any more affinity to Northstar just because he is gay. A good writer will make me enjoy the story no matter what the backround of the hero is. I just dont see why it is such a big deal.

I guess my point is if we want everyone to be equal in this country then why are we going to such extremes to keep pointing out how they are different? I am a gay male but it is not how I define myself. I define my self by being a good human, not a good gay man.

Why do we have to always qualify everything? First Anrican American does this... First gay man in baseball.. Why cant we just celebrate the achievement without qualifying what race a man is or what his sexuality is.

Ben Grimm, Black Panther and Northstar are heroes. They do the right thing and fight for what is right. That should be all anyone needs to know. Everything else is just secondary.

I know I am going to get a lot of hate foe this I am sure. I am not trying to troll. Just understand why it is such a huge deal for people because i dont get it.

Guessing (so please correct me if I’m wrong)...but I think the two of us may read super hero comics essentially looking for same kind of read: plot driven, action packed, escapist literature. When I’m in mood for something “deeper” I read a prose book.

And given that bias..I share a lot of the feelings you express in the post. I want primarily to read, about the dastardly villains latest plot and how the heroes ultimately foil it, not that deeply interested in characters “private life”.

But I can easily understand that comic readers are a very diverse group, and other readers will be looking for a different style of comics and be looking for a richer depth of characterisation (so for such a reader ethnic background would become more important.)

[christopherbinetti]

It is completely legitimate to want more characters like myself. Why would I be accused of being a troll for wanting characters like myself. 6 percent of the country should be represented by more than obscure characters no one has ever heard of, a guy whose first name is an Italophobic slur, and a murderous guy related to the mob. DC was not what I was talking about, but the only prominent Italian American (Argent is British I think), Huntress, is completely related to the mob mythos. Give me a non-stereotypical Italian Marvel superhero. We do need more Italian American writers and we need writers willing to explore Italian American culture. None of that should sound trollish except to people with Italophobic tendencies. I did compare our situation to the LGBT+ community. I did not mean to be offhand about it, but I also did not want to overplay the comparison. There is no reason why it would be inappropriate to compare the inclusion of ethnic minorities to the inclusion of sexual orientation, gender identity, and gender expression minorities. I do think that DC is even more committed to LGBT+ characters than is Marvel and the lack of Italian American characters in DC is even more striking. There is a character on Young Justice that is gender non-binary, I have been told, I have not seen the episode yet. Italian American characters simply do not appear in cartoons unless they are Mario or some mob guy. I do think that 6 percent of America deserves to have some representation if gender non-binary people, who are neither gay nor transgender but a new demographic group to represent, are represented. There are a lot more Italian Americans than gender non-binary people but we are being overlooked. I do think part of the problem is that we do not have the constituency among writers that the LGBT+ community has. Comics are traditionally WASP-oriented and you can have a LGBT+ WASP but not an Italian one so it possible that you have someone how is very marginalized in terms sexual orientation, gender identity, or gender expression but very socio-economically privileged.Italian
Americans are often viewed as more privileged than we really are and this allows people to overlook us. I do not think that it is outrageous to want comics and cartoons to include both LGBT+ and Italian American characters. You could even have a character that is both. If I were a writer, I would try to do both. Diversity should include Italians. Why is that a troll or controversial statement?

[Hypestyle]

officially, I guess it depends on the pitch. Additionally, the writer(s) have the challenge of how much and in what way to delve into the character's family background. Do they try to avoid the cliche's associated with this ethnic group? Especially for the setting. The New York City-based Italian-American family has been heavily mythologized in print and TV and film over the decades (and not only with Mob movies). A lot of tropes to contend with. What would family life be like if the setting was Las Vegas? Detroit? Chicago? Denver?

Additionally, does the writer "lean into" some of the cliches with the intent to "deconstruct"? Additionally, of course, if the writer him or herself is not Italian(-American), then another sort of debate is ignited...

[Chainsaw Vigilante]

Yeah there's more Italian blooded villains than heroes. I wouldn't worry though because we have learned there's little subtlety in comics, so they most likely would be written as caricatures. Even when writers try to tone things down these days they show they don't really have an idea how to write the backgrounds.

We could really do without the backhanded comparison to the LGBTQ+ community.

Didn't seem like it at all to me. Americans of Italian descent make up roughly 16% of the population of the N.Y., N.J., Mass, R.I., Conn., and Penn. area, Marvel's own backyard, so one would think they'd be better represented than a smaller percentage of the population. Italian and Italian American culture are also stronger parts of American culture than German or British American culture, despite those two being the most dominant ethnic backgrounds of the U.S. population, which makes it even more puzzling. No disrespect intended, but lgbt culture is fairly new in terms of its' growth in pop culture.

[Tycon]

I guess that’s the difference. Italian-Americans are still mostly racially white, who are still super represented in media. Sure, I’d love more Italian superheroes but they may be an “ethnic minority” but they are still racially white so it shouldn’t be surprising that people would rather fight for trans heroes over what is essentially more white rep. Representation is important for everyone, but I think somewhere along the road, straight people and cis people forgot why the LGBTQ+ community actually want representation.

Also, gay Italian-American people exist. It isn’t like they are two completely separate communities, either.

[Raye]

Yeah, but I think they're just saying that asking for representation for what (I presume) is their own ethnic background, and using the example of some of the gay etc. characters isn't a jab at LGBTQ representation. It's not an either or situation, you can represent racially white ethnic groups AND gay or black or brown or whatever else people, one doesn't have to come at the expense of the other, so it's okay to ask for this sort of representation if you find it to be lacking. (especially given the demographics of New York, as mentioned) The only way this would be a problem is that if they had put down other ethnic groups etc in the process, and they didn't. I get that a lot of minority groups had to fight to get themselves seen on the page, and white ethnic groups have more privilege than a lot of others. But that doesn't mean they can't want some representation of their own experiences as well. (as long as they are not asking for an actual racist character to be shown in a positive light) Wanting more representation for minority groups doesn't mean we have to stop making white characters entirely, and those can include non American ethnic backgrounds. And I don't think the OP or anyone else here ever implied that these characters had to be straight or cis, either. But I also don't think it has to be a requirement that they be LGBTQ or anything.

I mean, I'm Canadian, and I love seeing the Canadian characters, i think it's great that they made Wolverine Canadian and the times Squirrel Girl has gone to Canada has been a treat, cus North (being Canadian himself) gets it. Canadians are not exactly hurting for representation, and it's not like I follow every single Canadian character religiously or anything, but it's still fun to see it on the page of the things I read, cus hey, that's me-ish. I think it would be cool to see some Danish characters, given my family history laid out on the previous page, even if it's something I'm not actively seeking, i still would find it fun on the page (there have been some people from the more Nothern parts of Scandinavia, and of course the mythology is VERY well represented in Marvel, but can't think of any Danes specifically off the top of my head, unless you count some flashbacks to ye olde viking days in Thor. Edit - oh wait, i thought of one. Erik Selvig. I guess that's about it tho, unless you count MCU Kaecilius, though that's mostly because they cast a Danish actor). It's not something that's coming from a place of denying other people their representation, it's just nice to see yourself there, no matter what your background is. Why deny that to people because their ethnic background happens to be white?

[jackolover]

I mean, there are degrees of ethnicity depending on when your ancestors immigrated, and how much they tended to stick to a community of people with similar backgrounds.

to use my family as an example here, my mom's side, at least a good chunk of them, immigrated to North America over 200 years ago, they participated in the land rush, and lived in sod huts, fought in American wars and revolutions, (Sam Houston is one of my ancestors), and we have a diary of one of our ancestors who took the very first coast to coast train ride. It's a North American ancestry, more than anything else. In terms of origins, it is a general mix of everything you can imagine, if you trace the family tree back far enough you have Irish, Scottish, Dutch, Spanish, First Nations, and who knows what else. So cultural ties outside of North America are not terribly important on my mom's side. My dad's family, on the other hand, immigrated from Denmark when he was 10 years old. Both his parents are Danish, and their parents were Danish, or at least Scandinavian, and on and on. On his side, keeping some of the traditions and the food, and general connection back to Denmark is much more important, they are members of the Danish Canadian Club, the family gathers there for special occasions, we celebrate Christmas in the Danish way, etc.

What I think the OP is asking for is something more like my dad's family, but Italian, not someone who may have a few drops of Italian blood in them from some forgotten ancestor.

That was wonderful Raye. Thanks for sharing.

[jackolover]

It is completely legitimate to want more characters like myself. Why would I be accused of being a troll for wanting characters like myself. 6 percent of the country should be represented by more than obscure characters no one has ever heard of, a guy whose first name is an Italophobic slur, and a murderous guy related to the mob. DC was not what I was talking about, but the only prominent Italian American (Argent is British I think), Huntress, is completely related to the mob mythos. Give me a non-stereotypical Italian Marvel superhero. We do need more Italian American writers and we need writers willing to explore Italian American culture. None of that should sound trollish except to people with Italophobic tendencies. I did compare our situation to the LGBT+ community. I did not mean to be offhand about it, but I also did not want to overplay the comparison. There is no reason why it would be inappropriate to compare the inclusion of ethnic minorities to the inclusion of sexual orientation, gender identity, and gender expression minorities. I do think that DC is even more committed to LGBT+ characters than is Marvel and the lack of Italian American characters in DC is even more striking. There is a character on Young Justice that is gender non-binary, I have been told, I have not seen the episode yet. Italian American characters simply do not appear in cartoons unless they are Mario or some mob guy. I do think that 6 percent of America deserves to have some representation if gender non-binary people, who are neither gay nor transgender but a new demographic group to represent, are represented. There are a lot more Italian Americans than gender non-binary people but we are being overlooked. I do think part of the problem is that we do not have the constituency among writers that the LGBT+ community has. Comics are traditionally WASP-oriented and you can have a LGBT+ WASP but not an Italian one so it possible that you have someone how is very marginalized in terms sexual orientation, gender identity, or gender expression but very socio-economically privileged.Italian
Americans are often viewed as more privileged than we really are and this allows people to overlook us. I do not think that it is outrageous to want comics and cartoons to include both LGBT+ and Italian American characters. You could even have a character that is both. If I were a writer, I would try to do both. Diversity should include Italians. Why is that a troll or controversial statement?

The point I was making, as I’m Australian, I would also like to see an Australian hero like Crocodile Dundee in comics too. We aren’t doing comics in Australia (yet) in a Marvel Brand, but when that day comes, I want a Crocodile Dundee and an Aboriginal hero, (which we have already in Marvel) with lots of adventures in the outback. Maybe when Marvel Italy gets up and running, there will be Italian heroes and villains too. I just think Australian or Italian heroes in Marvel Comics are just too diluted by New York’s diversity to be particularly ethnically specific, unless you bring someone over like they did with Batroc from France.

[Mike_Murdock]

I guess that’s the difference. Italian-Americans are still mostly racially white, who are still super represented in media. Sure, I’d love more Italian superheroes but they may be an “ethnic minority” but they are still racially white so it shouldn’t be surprising that people would rather fight for trans heroes over what is essentially more white rep. Representation is important for everyone, but I think somewhere along the road, straight people and cis people forgot why the LGBTQ+ community actually want representation.

Also, gay Italian-American people exist. It isn’t like they are two completely separate communities, either.

Honestly, I'm more surprised there aren't more silver age Italian-Americans. Modern Italian-American characters are nice too, but early Marvel seemed to have a specifically New York identity but still overlooks it a bunch. Now does it compare to the underrepresentation of other groups? Probably not, but it would have been nice to see - especially since we're talking about an era where there still wasn't full integration of Italian-Americans into white society (although the 60s were much better at that than the 40s, for example).

[Electricmastro]

I dont know why there is this big push to make everyone feel included in comics any way. I can understand not wanting to have all white heroes and wanted to include African American heroes. But why the big push to have gay heroes or Jewish heroes? Does it really add that much to the story? When has Ben Grimm ever gone to temple in The Fantastic Four? When has Northstar gone to a pride rally. I know they did his wedding and that was cool to see. But in the end it really doesnt change my enjoyment of the characters to know what religion they are or if they are gay. Does it really matter that much when Ben belts Dr Doom that he is Jewish? Does it change things that much? I am a gay male and I dont feel any more affinity to Northstar just because he is gay. A good writer will make me enjoy the story no matter what the backround of the hero is. I just dont see why it is such a big deal.

I guess my point is if we want everyone to be equal in this country then why are we going to such extremes to keep pointing out how they are different? I am a gay male but it is not how I define myself. I define my self by being a good human, not a good gay man.

Why do we have to always qualify everything? First Anrican American does this... First gay man in baseball.. Why cant we just celebrate the achievement without qualifying what race a man is or what his sexuality is.

Ben Grimm, Black Panther and Northstar are heroes. They do the right thing and fight for what is right. That should be all anyone needs to know. Everything else is just secondary.

I know I am going to get a lot of hate foe this I am sure. I am not trying to troll. Just understand why it is such a huge deal for people because i dont get it.

Yeah, I can also understand not leaving people out, but sometimes I feel that some people get so focused on labels to the point that content of character, like how Martin Luther King Jr. talked about, becomes less of a priority. I mean, Kevin Spacey is gay, but I'm certainly sure many gay people wouldn't want to be represented by him due to his content of character.

It is completely legitimate to want more characters like myself.

I find it interesting when people say that they "want more characters like myself." Including a more varied group of characters for wanting to show off different cultures, and employ more actors to act as them in TV and film, that I can understand to get behind. As for "characters like myself" though, that always comes across to me, intentional or not, as basically saying "I'm a black person that feels left out if there aren't any black people on-screen," or "I'm a gay person that feels left out because there aren't any gay people on screen," as if the only way anyone can possibly connect with a character is through labels rather than by content of character, ideology, thought, etc. I mean, I don't know about everyone else here, but as a half-Puerto Rican/half-Korean male myself, there are many female characters and characters of many different ethnic groups I admire and look up to and feel more approachable to me regardless of what ethnicity they come from.

This isn't to downplay the desire to have more people of various backgrounds included, this is to emphasize the importance of good content of character, which one can learn from regardless of how many outward differences there are.

[Tycon]

Yeah, but I think they're just saying that asking for representation for what (I presume) is their own ethnic background, and using the example of some of the gay etc. characters isn't a jab at LGBTQ representation. It's not an either or situation, you can represent racially white ethnic groups AND gay or black or brown or whatever else people, one doesn't have to come at the expense of the other, so it's okay to ask for this sort of representation if you find it to be lacking. (especially given the demographics of New York, as mentioned) The only way this would be a problem is that if they had put down other ethnic groups etc in the process, and they didn't. I get that a lot of minority groups had to fight to get themselves seen on the page, and white ethnic groups have more privilege than a lot of others. But that doesn't mean they can't want some representation of their own experiences as well. (as long as they are not asking for an actual racist character to be shown in a positive light) Wanting more representation for minority groups doesn't mean we have to stop making white characters entirely, and those can include non American ethnic backgrounds. And I don't think the OP or anyone else here ever implied that these characters had to be straight or cis, either. But I also don't think it has to be a requirement that they be LGBTQ or anything.

I mean, I'm Canadian, and I love seeing the Canadian characters, i think it's great that they made Wolverine Canadian and the times Squirrel Girl has gone to Canada has been a treat, cus North (being Canadian himself) gets it. Canadians are not exactly hurting for representation, and it's not like I follow every single Canadian character religiously or anything, but it's still fun to see it on the page of the things I read, cus hey, that's me-ish. I think it would be cool to see some Danish characters, given my family history laid out on the previous page, even if it's something I'm not actively seeking, i still would find it fun on the page (there have been some people from the more Nothern parts of Scandinavia, and of course the mythology is VERY well represented in Marvel, but can't think of any Danes specifically off the top of my head, unless you count some flashbacks to ye olde viking days in Thor. Edit - oh wait, i thought of one. Erik Selvig. I guess that's about it tho, unless you count MCU Kaecilius, though that's mostly because they cast a Danish actor). It's not something that's coming from a place of denying other people their representation, it's just nice to see yourself there, no matter what your background is. Why deny that to people because their ethnic background happens to be white?

In case you didn’t read my comment, I said that representation is important for everyone. Not sure where in there you thought I was dissing seeing rep for Italians. Hell, my last point is specifically making the point that it isn’t an “either or” situation.’ Which makes the initial comparison all the more weird. It’s like after Black Panther came out, and a bunch of other non-black POC were saying “where’s our Latino Black Panther” or “where’s our Asian Black Panther?” I’m not saying they shouldn’t receive representation but can you really not make an argument for representation without looking at another marginalized group and saying: “well I deserve it just as much as them” as if like we’re all fighting for space on the stage. Ethnic representation is important but if you’re trying to make this a situation of “who deserves representation the most?” if it were relating to race and ethnicity, I will always say racial minorities should always be first at the plate. This isn’t a matter of not wanting certain people to be “left out” but can we at least make sure minorities that were never given a fair shake to have that importance get that. Same case with Len Wein’s Giant-Sized. Yes, the ethnic representation was important but at some point we need to let realism settle in for a second.

And there are Italian lesbians, gay Italians, trans Italians, bi Italians, etc etc. The intention may not have been there, but that doesn’t mean no one should say anything. It was a weird comparison to me and I said something about it. This isn’t an attack on white people that you may think it is. If there was a thread about ginger representation being just as important as LGBTQ+ rep because they just wanted to see themselves, would that hold up for you? Not disagreeing or agreeing with that notion, just wondering what you would think.

Yeah, I can also understand not leaving people out, but sometimes I feel that some people get so focused on labels to the point that content of character, like how Martin Luther King Jr. talked about, becomes less of a priority. I mean, Kevin Spacey is gay, but I'm certainly sure many gay people wouldn't want to be represented by him due to his content of character.

That quote you got from Martin Luther King was a dream that he himself even later said he regretted because it wasn’t realistic. He said “solid realism” is what we should be placing ourselves in. Realism that black people won’t be just judged by the content of their character because of both individual prejudice and discrimination, but also what is established systemically. It would be a nice world but we aren’t living in it.

Also, no one said anything about just plain, blind representation. There’s good rep and bad rep.

[JackDaw]

I'm surprised no one has stressed just how often Italian Americans feature "negatively"...mafia types feature wall to wall in TV serials and movies.

That is one reason (among several) why I had a lot of sympathy for OP's quest for more positive Italian American characters.

[Electricmastro]

That quote you got from Martin Luther King was a dream that he himself even later said he regretted because it wasn’t realistic. He said “solid realism” is what we should be placing ourselves in. Realism that black people won’t be just judged by the content of their character because of both individual prejudice and discrimination, but also what is established systemically. It would be a nice world but we aren’t living in it.

Also, no one said anything about just plain, blind representation. There’s good rep and bad rep.

His regret doesn't make what he originally said ring less true to me. After what I've seen, you'd be surprised at how some people approach representation.

I'm surprised no one has stressed just how often Italian Americans feature "negatively"...mafia types feature wall to wall in TV serials and movies.

That is one reason (among several) why I had a lot of sympathy for OP's quest for more positive Italian American characters.

That I agree with in that it would be more refreshing to show more Italian-Americans as heroic rather than as villainous.

[Tycon]

His regret doesn't make what he originally said ring less true to me. After what I've seen, you'd be surprised at how some people approach representation.

It does, though. Maybe not to you, but to the cause he was fighting for. What he later said was a direct stand against what he had initially talked about in his Dream speech because of the faulty idealism it sprung on white moderates that felt: “oh, we don’t have to do anything. all we have to do is ignore the issue and treat black people by their character without confronting the systems that still disadvantage them.”

[mikelmcknight72]

At least on these boards, it seems like many folks care more about representation than they do well written stories or creative freedom. Some of these folks talk as though all editors, creators, and characters need to be used based upon statistical breakdowns of various categories. Representation is certainly a laudable goal, but I only want to see it if it is done well. I think it is inarguable that poorly executed representation is worse than no representation at all.