Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 55
  1. #31
    Extraordinary Member Tycon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    9,152

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mikelmcknight72 View Post
    At least on these boards, it seems like many folks care more about representation than they do well written stories or creative freedom. Some of these folks talk as though all editors, creators, and characters need to be used based upon statistical breakdowns of various categories. Representation is certainly a laudable goal, but I only want to see it if it is done well. I think it is inarguable that poorly executed representation is worse than no representation at all.
    Those aren't mutually exclusive things.
    Last edited by Conn Seanery; 07-04-2019 at 05:27 PM.

  2. #32
    Member Supreme Morsoth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    135

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Starter Set View Post
    Do you really want a hero crying "mama mia" every page and who can't say a full sentence without adding a couple of Italian words?

    Cause that's what going to happen you know. That's how subtle writers are.
    I couldn't resist:

    Untold_Tales_of_Punisher_MAX_Vol_1_3.jpg

  3. #33
    Fantastic Member Electricmastro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Posts
    368

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    Representation is important for everyone, but I think somewhere along the road, straight people and cis people forgot why the LGBTQ+ community actually want representation.
    Well now that you've said that, I suppose that for the sake of helping everyone on this thread understand to the best of their ability, what would you say is the reason(s) that representation is important for everyone?

  4. #34

    Default

    Kingpin. If he isn't, he should be retconned to be. Capisce?

  5. #35
    Extraordinary Member Mike_Murdock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    7,155

    Default

    The fact that he isn't Italian has actually been used as a plot point by Bendis.
    Matt Murdock's cooler twin brother

    I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
    Thomas More - A Man for All Seasons

    Interested in reading Daredevil? Not sure what to read next? Why not check out the Daredevil Book Club for some ideas?

  6. #36
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    8,020

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mikelmcknight72 View Post
    At least on these boards, it seems like many folks care more about representation than they do well written stories or creative freedom. Some of these folks talk as though all editors, creators, and characters need to be used based upon statistical breakdowns of various categories. Representation is certainly a laudable goal, but I only want to see it if it is done well. I think it is inarguable that poorly executed representation is worse than no representation at all.
    They are not mutual.
    You can have a well written story and it be FILLED with trope and racial stereotypes galore. The story is good but how POC or LGBTQ or women being used is bad.

    Take Family Guy, American Dad or Married With Children when it came to POC. They all had their offensive moments. I say that as an OWNER of Married With Children entire series.
    Take some of these cop shows-it gets REAL annoying to only see POC get arrested on those shows. RARELY do they get busted for white collar crimes.
    CSI Cyber-Bow Wow's character had to be the only criminal on the show. Same with Tyler James Williams on Whiskey Cavier.
    Big Bang Theory-Odd that Raj is the promiscuous one and single at the end and has MONEY. No SMART black male was ever seen. Doesn't take away from how good the show was.


    I think what the OP is asking for is more development.
    You can have an Italian character without the stereotypes. You can show PIECES of that person's life in a book. Ms Marvel does that as did Static, Blue Beetle and others.

  7. #37
    Extraordinary Member Tycon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    9,152

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    Well now that you've said that, I suppose that for the sake of helping everyone on this thread understand to the best of their ability, what would you say is the reason(s) that representation is important for everyone?
    oooooo IDK I don’t want to take Google’s job. The short of it is, marginalized groups finally want to see representation after decades and centuries of oppression and silence. Not only to see yourself positively represented in mediums, but to normalize your culture for future generations so we don’t have internalized hatred inside our own communities.

  8. #38
    Fantastic Member Electricmastro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Posts
    368

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    The story is good but how POC or LGBTQ or women being used is bad.

    Take Family Guy, American Dad or Married With Children when it came to POC. They all had their offensive moments. I say that as an OWNER of Married With Children entire series.
    Take some of these cop shows-it gets REAL annoying to only see POC get arrested on those shows. RARELY do they get busted for white collar crimes.
    CSI Cyber-Bow Wow's character had to be the only criminal on the show. Same with Tyler James Williams on Whiskey Cavier.
    Big Bang Theory-Odd that Raj is the promiscuous one and single at the end and has MONEY. No SMART black male was ever seen. Doesn't take away from how good the show was.
    Well to my understanding, don't comedy shows, at least the ones you gave as examples, make stereotypes out of everyone in some way, shape, or form? I mean, look at comedy shows like The Simpsons, which makes stereotypes out of everyone including Homer Simpson himself as the naive lazy husband. Now, there can be the debate over whether or not the stereotype jokes are done equally across every character, though despite that, it has managed to become one of the most widely-liked and popular shows, at least in relatively recent memory. Then again, whether or not all these shows are "truly well-written" to begin with is subjective, but, beside the point.

    Really though, to me, by the way you're presenting your post, I get the feeling there's less of a writing problem and more of a morality/organization problem. I just imagine times in which they get a lot of complaints of not featuring enough black characters or female characters, and then suddenly decide to feature more black female characters based on wanting to receive less complains, and possibly make more money from consumers wanting to see more comics with black female characters in them, functioning like the business that Marvel primarily is after all. Basically, less about making choices out the goodness of their hearts and more about what consistently makes them the most money.

    And in cases in which they decide to feature more black female characters, they might feature them for one or two years, notice how little popularity they're getting, and then write them out/kill them off, and move on. Rather than the situation being of not having many black female characters, the situation as I've observed it seems more like they just don't seem to primarily want to commit long-term with many of the characters they've created.

    Like, you tell me, how many of these black female characters from Marvel have consistently appeared all the way up to 2019 and have appeared on a lot of other media/merchandising?



    And I can list several more characters in case there aren't enough examples. Yes, there are characters like Misty Knight which I'm sure are rising in popularity thanks for MCU media and the like, but I really do think that Storm has gotten far more attention and popularity than pretty much every other black female character Marvel has presented.

    I suppose what I'm ultimately attempting to say is that, more than being open to include more characters of various backgrounds to begin with, and solving any possible issue at Marvel involving not wanting to show certain characters for certain reasons, Marvel should also be more willing to commit to showcasing their characters long-term. Characters that we can all enjoy together as consumers of entertainment and as fans alike.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    oooooo IDK I don’t want to take Google’s job. The short of it is, marginalized groups finally want to see representation after decades and centuries of oppression and silence. Not only to see yourself positively represented in mediums, but to normalize your culture for future generations so we don’t have internalized hatred inside our own communities.
    Ah, so more specifically, "positive representation," instead of simply representation in general. Also, when it comes to eliminating internalized hatred inside our own communities, are you implying it's the job of comic books to do that. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for seeing great cultures being showcased in a great manner, though, I get the feeling it takes more than comic books to solve the problem of their being internalized hatred. That seems more like job best suited to be addressed to leaders of said communities and attempt to work with them as much as possible to the best of everyone's ability to ensure a better future for those communities, which I imagine is quite a bit more complicated beyond showing many marginalized groups in comics. Or am I being a stupid person that's completely in the wrong here?
    Last edited by Electricmastro; 07-04-2019 at 09:41 PM.

  9. #39
    Extraordinary Member Tycon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    9,152

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    Ah, so more specifically, "positive representation," instead of simply representation in general. Also, when it comes to eliminating internalized hatred inside our own communities, are you implying it's the job of comic books to do that. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for seeing great cultures being showcased in a great manner, though, I get the feeling it takes more than comic books to solve the problem of their being internalized hatred. That seems more like job best suited to be addressed to leaders of said communities and attempt to work with them as much as possible to the best of everyone's ability to ensure a better future for those communities, which I imagine is quite a bit more complicated beyond showing many marginalized groups in comics. Or am I being a stupid person that's completely in the wrong here?
    Yes, whenever I say “representation”, assume I just mean “positive representation.” Because, to me, that’s the only sort of representation worth counting as representation. And also I’m not saying it’s only up to comic books but yes any consumable medium in entertainment has a job to do in eliminating racism or misogyny or homophobia or transphobic or ableism etc etc. I don’t know if that’s what you got from my comment, but entertainment won’t be the sole factor in solving racism but neither will just listening to leaders in our community. That and internalization go much deeper than that. Internalized hatred won’t stop if the whole of society has set euro-centric beauty standards as the bar or made heterosexuality as the “normal and acceptable” sexuality or enforced gender roles. It takes more than just people in the community which is why we need allies, representation, events, and celebrations of our culture. You aren’t being a “stupid person” and I’m not even really saying you’re in the wrong, it’s a much-needed discussion on these boards.

  10. #40
    Fantastic Member mikelmcknight72's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    275

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    Those aren't mutually exclusive things.
    I agree that they aren't always mutually exclusive. However, I've seen plenty of posts on these boards and articles elsewhere in which the authors say things stating, more or less, the following:

    1. It should be required that the editor, writer, and artist are of the same demographic as the character.
    2. Adhering to rule # 1 will always result in better stories than those where there is a mismatch in demographics.

    I'm pro-diversity, as long as it is done organically and well. For instance, Sam as Cap was well done. It was somewhat earned, even if I think it ultimately does an established and loved character like Sam harm to get the shield temporarily. Miles? Well done, somewhat earned, but it totally works. Riri? it wasn't well done, it wasn't earned, and it didn't work well initially. Amadeus Cho as a Hulk? One of the best handled stories of its kind. It was only marred by Marvel trying to darned near simultaneously enact several diversity replacements at once for several high profile characters.

  11. #41
    Fantastic Member Electricmastro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Posts
    368

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    neither will just listening to leaders in our community. That and internalization go much deeper than that. Internalized hatred won’t stop if the whole of society has set euro-centric beauty standards as the bar or made heterosexuality as the “normal and acceptable” sexuality or enforced gender roles. It takes more than just people in the community which is why we need allies, representation, events, and celebrations of our culture.
    Well I'm not just saying to listen to them, but to discuss with them, encourage them, and convince them to carry out actions that will have long-lasting great effects on the communities as a whole. The impression I get is that you seem to be equating entertainment, handled by media execs, as being equally as impacting and "society-bettering" as society's leaders. Because last time I checked, at least ideally, community leaders want to improve communities. Media execs just want your money. Sure, there are exceptions of people working for free to put out comics featuring marginalized groups, but when all is said and done in regards to the comics industry as a whole, Marvel is still primarily a business. Marvel is not our friend. Marvel is not our ally ready to crusade with us against the entire world. Marvel is not a company that personally sends its own superheroes to stomp down on all of the bad people in entire world and put them in jail. I just recognize them for what they are, a business.

    This isn't to downplay the importance of marginalized groups and non-marginalized groups getting along with one another, but I guess that sometimes, at least from what I've seen on the internet, that some people glorify Marvel up to be quite a bit more than what they really just are, and should probably get their priorities reorganized more.
    Last edited by Electricmastro; 07-04-2019 at 10:41 PM.

  12. #42
    Extraordinary Member Tycon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    9,152

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    Well I'm not just saying to listen to them, but to discuss with them, encourage them, and convince them to carry out actions that will have long-lasting great effects on the communities as a whole. The impression I get is that you seem to be equating entertainment, handled by media execs, as being equally as impacting and "society-bettering" as society's leaders. Because last time I checked, at least ideally, community leaders want to improve communities. Media execs just want your money. Sure, there are exceptions of people working for free to put out comics featuring marginalized groups, but when all is said and done in regards to the comics industry as a whole, Marvel is still primarily a business. Marvel is not our friend. Marvel is not our ally ready to crusade with us against the entire world. Marvel is not a company that personally sends its own superheroes to stomp down on all of the bad people in entire world and put them in jail. I just recognize them for what they are, a business.

    This isn't to downplay the importance of marginalized groups and non-marginalized groups getting along with one another, but I guess that sometimes, at least from what I've seen on the internet, that some people glorify Marvel up to be quite a bit more than what they really just are.
    No, please don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying Marvel is trying to hold our hands or be our friends. Much like all the corporations that only co-opted Pride to appear “““woke””” for social points. I don’t know where I came off as equating the two, just that we need the two. And not Marvel and I’m not centering things around just comic books, but ALL mediums. There are black and brown LGBTQ+ creators out there who are trying to put love and passion into their projects, and that is super important. Those are mediums that I’m also including and not just Marvel or DC or any company that is obviously using marginalized groups as woke points. Community leaders can only do so much when the issue is SYSTEMIC. I’ll say this again, that isn’t to downplay their importance but to be realistic in that we need allies who are already in positions of power (and im not talking about corporations) that can reach places that we have been all-but-legally barred from.

    And this isn’t to put those allies on a pedestal at all. The modern LGBTQ+ movement was started by trans women of color. We only got the legalization of marriage equality a couple of years ago by an all-cishet majority in the Supreme Court. That doesn’t mean I’m gonna kiss their feet for giving out stuff we should’ve already had, especially because that’s essentially spitting on the people that have really suffered to bring us to where we are today. But recognizing the power of strong allyship in sociopolitical change is important because it can help get things done fast without having to sacrifice our livelihood. That was probably all over the place so sorry in advance.

  13. #43
    Fantastic Member Electricmastro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Posts
    368

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    No, please don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying Marvel is trying to hold our hands or be our friends. Much like all the corporations that only co-opted Pride to appear “““woke””” for social points. I don’t know where I came off as equating the two, just that we need the two. And not Marvel and I’m not centering things around just comic books, but ALL mediums. There are black and brown LGBTQ+ creators out there who are trying to put love and passion into their projects, and that is super important. Those are mediums that I’m also including and not just Marvel or DC or any company that is obviously using marginalized groups as woke points. Community leaders can only do so much when the issue is SYSTEMIC. I’ll say this again, that isn’t to downplay their importance but to be realistic in that we need allies who are already in positions of power (and im not talking about corporations) that can reach places that we have been all-but-legally barred from.

    And this isn’t to put those allies on a pedestal at all. The modern LGBTQ+ movement was started by trans women of color. We only got the legalization of marriage equality a couple of years ago by an all-cishet majority in the Supreme Court. That doesn’t mean I’m gonna kiss their feet for giving out stuff we should’ve already had, especially because that’s essentially spitting on the people that have really suffered to bring us to where we are today. But recognizing the power of strong allyship in sociopolitical change is important because it can help get things done fast without having to sacrifice our livelihood. That was probably all over the place so sorry in advance.
    Well, in any case, hope all goes well in helping marginalized groups and non-marginalized groups getting along with one another in the near and far future. Moving on then.
    Last edited by Electricmastro; 07-05-2019 at 12:10 AM.

  14. #44
    Resident of The Djalia Blind Wedjat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Posts
    1,446

    Default

    I always find it funny that there are always people who accuse others of only wanting surface level representation and caring about that more than good writing whenever someone does bring up representation. It's equally annoying and weird when the OP says in his first and subsequent posts says they don't want a stereotypical character and one that represents the group in question accurately and positively (which counts as good writing, by the way).

    Many people attribute this to (casual or disguised) racism or being anti-representation, but I think it happens because most characters that do represent these groups are still stereotypes or come from stereotypes.

    Most Italian-American characters in American media range from being chefs to gangsters. When someone says they want to sew more Italian-American representation, the naysayers are always going to retort with "why do you care about representation than good writing?" even though you never implied that, because they know the Italian cook or gangster is a stereotype or a negative image, even if they don't realise it.

    It's also why when someone says they want to see more gay men representation, they're gonna assume you want some sassy, flowery, effeminate gay man as a hero who basically announces he is gay, when gay men hate that image because it's a (negative) stereotype of gay men and it's poor writing, and they also know it too, and they think that's what you want because it's the only image they have.

    To go back on topic, take Punisher and Huntress for example. I'm sure both have got great stories written about them, but they still come from stereotypes with theor relation to the Italian mob and being violent criminals or vigilantes. An Italian-American character doesn't have to fit that description. Why can't one be a speedster, a guy that uses fancy tech, or a cosmic powered character? And in addition to that, why can't said character accurately and positively depict the Italian-American experience for those in that group and for those outside to better understand their own experience and relate where they can? Themes of family, finding love, trying to balance multiple responsibilities, and fitting in are universal. It's why Spider-Man is so damn popular to this day, because everything about him regardless of his ethnicity and race is universally appealing. There should be characters from every walk of life that feel just as relatable as Peter Parker.

    To the OP, I empathise. I'm British-Nigerian, and I know what it's like to want to see yourself in the media. Black Panther is one of my favourite characters and while I love what many writers and the film did with him, I too know he came from stereotypes. I've been paying a lot of attention to Shang-Chi, and I know what the MCU film needs to avoid to not offend Asians and Asian-Americans. Representation is important for everyone because it allows all of us to see our shared humanity in different people of different races, ethnicities, sexes, cultures, sexualities and so on. I saw this video of Koreans talking about Black Panther and one of them said it was the first time they thought African/Black people could be beautiful. That's what happens when said media only shows African people as dirt poor and war torn. People are only now starting to realise just how much the media influences the way we think about one another, which is where these reactions are coming from.

  15. #45
    Fantastic Member Electricmastro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Posts
    368

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Blind Wedjat View Post
    I saw this video of Koreans talking about Black Panther and one of them said it was the first time they thought African/Black people could be beautiful. That's what happens when said media only shows African people as dirt poor and war torn. People are only now starting to realise just how much the media influences the way we think about one another, which is where these reactions are coming from.
    While I can totally get behind accurate and great portrayals of culture, and the people that come from those cultures, regarding this specific point, I think that's what happens when people, like said Koreans, assume that African/Black people couldn't be beautiful when only seeming to rely on Hollywood's attempts at movies instead of doing in-depth research that helps better understand the rest of the world around them. I mean, if Black Panther hadn't of come out, and you got to meet those Koreans in person, then what would you have said to them? This isn't to lessen the importance of accurately representing all parts of a culture, as well as the people apart of that culture, on Hollywood's screen, this is to emphasize on the importance of communicating beyond what's seen on Hollywood's screen, as well as research in general.
    Last edited by Electricmastro; 07-05-2019 at 01:37 AM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •