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  1. #16
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    With Homecoming largely set in the suburbs, and this film largely set in different European cities, Director Jon Watts has made conscious decisions not to repeat visuals from earlier Spider-Man films,
    Which is super-annoying. I mean imagine people being ashamed of having a Batcave or Gotham City or so on just because previous movies did it.

    spoilers:
    The Alex Jones-ish J. Jonah Jameson debut is excellent. The first big surprise is that we've got JK Simmons back as Jonah, after a period of twelve years. It's the right approach.
    end of spoilers
    I am not comfortable with that.

    spoilers:
    Because JJ isn't Alex Jones. JJ is a good reporter with a conscience who just happens to hate Spider-Man. He's Spider-Man's guilty conscience. He is the one decent guy with a vice and lapse of judgment, not totally insincere and cynical. He's not a racist conspiracy theorist nutcase. This is the guy who dumped a white supremacist like Bullitt even if he promised to hunt down Spider-Man. Framing Jameson as Alex Jones is the false-good-idea.
    end of spoilers

    Quote Originally Posted by WebSlingWonder View Post
    I mean, to be honest, and this goes for everyone: if we set our expectations sky high, we'll always be disappointed. I wasn't expecting this movie to be say Spidey PS4 level (which I consider to be the absolute closest next to "Spectacular Spider-Man") but I'm hoping for a good time. If it can give me that, I'm good.
    Since cinema is a more prestigious art-form than games and cartoons, it should be the other way around...i.e. lower standards for games and cartoons who genuinely do have excuses when it comes to budget/voice casting/medium problems than in live-action (people paid higher than any field in the arts).

  2. #17
    Spider-Fan Since '95 WebSlingWonder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Batman Begins 2005 View Post
    For me the best iteration of Spider-Man outside the comics is the Spectacular Spider-Man cartoon comfortably then Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse.
    Another "Spectacular Spider-Man" fan! Good on you, sir!
    The Amazing, Spectacular, Sensational Web-Slinger!

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Which is super-annoying. I mean imagine people being ashamed of having a Batcave or Gotham City or so on just because previous movies did it.
    Having a change of locale in FFH has nothing to do with "being ashamed" of continuing to have Spidey in NYC. It's just a change of scenery. We have had many, many films now with Spidey swinging through NY. It's not as though the comics have never taken Spidey abroad for a change of pace.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    I am not comfortable with that.

    spoilers:
    Because JJ isn't Alex Jones. JJ is a good reporter with a conscience who just happens to hate Spider-Man. He's Spider-Man's guilty conscience. He is the one decent guy with a vice and lapse of judgment, not totally insincere and cynical. He's not a racist conspiracy theorist nutcase. This is the guy who dumped a white supremacist like Bullitt even if he promised to hunt down Spider-Man. Framing Jameson as Alex Jones is the false-good-idea.
    end of spoilers
    It remains to be seen how JJJ will be portrayed in the next movie so we'll see how irresponsible he really turns out to be (I'm guessing he'll recant when the real truth comes out) but let's not give JJJ too much credit for being "a good reporter with a conscience who just happens to hate Spider-Man." He is, after all, responsible for the creation of several super villains. That goes well beyond giving bad press to someone he has a disdain for.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jekyll View Post
    Also, where would you rank this to previous spider-man films? I place this at no. 3 behind Spiderverse on my list.
    It'd be hard for me to rank the Spidey films at this point - we've gotten a number of excellent ones by now and all with their own special qualities.

    But this is definitely one of the best. I love that we're so far into the live action Spidey's by now and that they can still feel fresh and surprising.

  5. #20
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    let's not give JJJ too much credit for being "a good reporter with a conscience who just happens to hate Spider-Man." He is, after all, responsible for the creation of several super villains.
    How many numbers does it take for "several". As far as I see, Jameson's just responsible for 1. Jameson is responsible for the creation of Scorpion and even then Mac Gargan was a Private Eye converted into a superhero, from Jameson's view, and then Mac Gargan went nuts. That's about it.

    In the case of the Spider-Slayer, it was Peter Parker himself who convinced Jameson to lend his ears to Smythe. In ASM#25, Peter needs photographs to give Jameson but there aren't villains around, so when Spencer comes to Jameson and tells him about these Spidey-hunting robots, Jameson initially thinks he's a quack but then Peter convinces him around. He sweet-talks Jameson because he wants a threat to fight to take pictures to give back, and he thinks the Slayers are a joke which unfortunately for Peter, ain't so. So yeah, the Spider-Slayers are Peter's responsibility, not Jameson. That includes everything the Spider-Slayers did, including Marla Jameson's death. And yeah, it was Peter who convinced Jameson to operate the Slayers, because he thought selling photos of him beating up a robot with Jameson's face would be hilarious...Lee-Ditko Peter who has the confidence of Victor von Doom and often his luck.

    And in any case, stuff about Jameson creating supervillains is from the L-D era and it was played down later, in the same way Gwen being a frowning bully was played down from the same run, as well as Peter Parker being a pranking creep who harassed Johnny Storm's dates was played down. It isn't an essential part of his character compared to him being this crusty boss with integrity but one major blind spot which still kind of has thematic logic.
    Last edited by Revolutionary_Jack; 07-03-2019 at 09:30 AM.

  6. #21
    Spider-Fan Since '95 WebSlingWonder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    How many numbers does it take for "several". As far as I see, Jameson's just responsible for 1. Jameson is responsible for the creation of Scorpion and even then Mac Gargan was a Private Eye converted into a superhero, from Jameson's view, and then Mac Gargan went nuts. That's about it.

    In the case of the Spider-Slayer, it was Peter Parker himself who convinced Jameson to lend his ears to Smythe. In ASM#25, Peter needs photographs to give Jameson but there aren't villains around, so when Spencer comes to Jameson and tells him about these Spidey-hunting robots, Jameson initially thinks he's a quack but then Peter convinces him around. He sweet-talks Jameson because he wants a threat to fight to take pictures to give back, and he thinks the Slayers are a joke which unfortunately for Peter, ain't so. So yeah, the Spider-Slayers are Peter's responsibility, not Jameson. That includes everything the Spider-Slayers did, including Marla Jameson's death.

    And in any case, stuff about Jameson creating supervillains is from the L-D era and it was played down later, in the same way Gwen being a frowning bully was played down from the same run, as well as Peter Parker being a pranking creep who harassed Johnny Storm's dates was played down.
    You want to run that last line by me again???
    The Amazing, Spectacular, Sensational Web-Slinger!

  7. #22
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebSlingWonder View Post
    You want to run that last line by me again???
    Peter Parker creeping on Johnny Storm's dates...yeah that happened in ASM #8. Read the back-up story. It has art by Jack Kirby.

    As this wonderful article notes (http://sequart.org/magazine/42314/sp...-e2--%3E80%9d/)

    That scene above in ASM #8 (by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby, which is as official as if Marvel the corporate entity gained sentience and started writing comics on its own), where Spidey’s hogtying the Human Torch? Johnny’s not secretly the Chameleon in disguise, nor is he being mind-controlled by Dr. Doom or the Ringmaster. Peter’s doing it because he’s angry at the guy getting all the breaks he doesn’t, and feels like publicly ruining his day. This was not, by the way, the slightest bit uncharacteristic of Peter Parker as we’d seen him up to this point.

    In the earliest material, Peter Parker was a dick, and that went on long after the mugger got turned in. His immediate response after Ben was killed? Keep on going with the show business until Jameson starts going after him. His first couple saves are at least in part about His Good Name, whether saving Jameson’s son with the idea that it would get him on the old man’s good side, or going after the Chameleon for impersonating him, and even once he starts going after criminals on a consistent basis it’s initially only for photography money. He takes stupid chances. He’s desperate for cash. He insults and attacks undeserving people. He fakes pictures of Sandman and Electro with the flimsiest of moral justifications. He’s got a chip on his shoulder the size of Queens and can barely begin to control his temper. He’ll lash out at people on suspicion or anger alone, and in some early stories he just plain gave up or ran away until he learned his lesson or circumstances changed. He’s a bitter, arrogant know-it-all who looks down on virtually everyone around him, and even if we can’t blame him with all he goes through, he’s often far afield of anything resembling “likeable”.


  8. #23
    Spider-Fan Since '95 WebSlingWonder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Peter Parker creeping on Johnny Storm's dates...yeah that happened in ASM #8. Read the back-up story. It has art by Jack Kirby.

    As this wonderful article notes (http://sequart.org/magazine/42314/sp...-e2--%3E80%9d/)

    That scene above in ASM #8 (by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby, which is as official as if Marvel the corporate entity gained sentience and started writing comics on its own), where Spidey’s hogtying the Human Torch? Johnny’s not secretly the Chameleon in disguise, nor is he being mind-controlled by Dr. Doom or the Ringmaster. Peter’s doing it because he’s angry at the guy getting all the breaks he doesn’t, and feels like publicly ruining his day. This was not, by the way, the slightest bit uncharacteristic of Peter Parker as we’d seen him up to this point.

    In the earliest material, Peter Parker was a dick, and that went on long after the mugger got turned in. His immediate response after Ben was killed? Keep on going with the show business until Jameson starts going after him. His first couple saves are at least in part about His Good Name, whether saving Jameson’s son with the idea that it would get him on the old man’s good side, or going after the Chameleon for impersonating him, and even once he starts going after criminals on a consistent basis it’s initially only for photography money. He takes stupid chances. He’s desperate for cash. He insults and attacks undeserving people. He fakes pictures of Sandman and Electro with the flimsiest of moral justifications. He’s got a chip on his shoulder the size of Queens and can barely begin to control his temper. He’ll lash out at people on suspicion or anger alone, and in some early stories he just plain gave up or ran away until he learned his lesson or circumstances changed. He’s a bitter, arrogant know-it-all who looks down on virtually everyone around him, and even if we can’t blame him with all he goes through, he’s often far afield of anything resembling “likeable”.

    I can read the article, you don't have to quote it here.
    I just wanted to know where you got that from. Maybe not every interpretation is the right one, just saying.
    The Amazing, Spectacular, Sensational Web-Slinger!

  9. #24
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    the legend of ditko-lee peter prick parker lives on today through otto

    can we get an arc about flash that stuff is SAD

    kraven next movie BOIS!!!

    quentin barf is such a lord, like ditko/lee and romita's coney island story and gauntlet's mysterioso had a baby

    i want a tv show about this high school, now that JB smoove is here we can even bring in larry david!
    Dance games are my divine punishment from the Lord. May my furnace be forever fueled.

  10. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by WebSlingWonder View Post
    Another "Spectacular Spider-Man" fan! Good on you, sir!
    Cheers, Sir!

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    How many numbers does it take for "several". As far as I see, Jameson's just responsible for 1. Jameson is responsible for the creation of Scorpion and even then Mac Gargan was a Private Eye converted into a superhero, from Jameson's view, and then Mac Gargan went nuts. That's about it.
    That's more than enough, wouldn't you say?

    And let's not forget times like when Jonah paid Electro to attack Spider-Man (pretty sure with the implication that he would kill him) in front of an audience on live TV, completely oblivious to the danger to that crowd of innocents.

    He's been responsible for some slimy, criminal, immoral sh*t.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    And in any case, stuff about Jameson creating supervillains is from the L-D era and it was played down later, in the same way Gwen being a frowning bully was played down from the same run, as well as Peter Parker being a pranking creep who harassed Johnny Storm's dates was played down. It isn't an essential part of his character compared to him being this crusty boss with integrity but one major blind spot which still kind of has thematic logic.
    Sure, JJJ has been softened over time, which is fine. We now accept him as a mostly good guy with some character flaws.

    So let's wait until the next Spidey movie comes out before worrying that they'll be painting him in a too-negative light. I think it's a safe bet that he'll be his usual blowhard self that we're now accustomed to.

  12. #27
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    the legend of ditko-lee peter prick parker lives on today through otto
    L-D Otto is a psychopath without redeeming virtues so no legend lives on through Otto. You can't revive an older version of a character through another one who is completely overwritten.

    The fact is in the L-D era, everyone except Aunt May, was harsh, rude, and more "unlikable". We must also remember that this was around the time of the Silver Age and from today's point of view, Silver Age Superman and Batman in some comics come off as jerkish too, but more because they behave in ways that were seen as "normal" then and so on. Peter pranking Johnny Storm and so on is played for laughs when today not so much. Look at Jack Kirby's early work on Fantastic Four. The Thing in the early issues is a bit of a creep. Yeah it's sad that he's made ugly and so on with this mutation but he sees that as costing him a shot with Susan and initially some of his aggro with Reed is played with him wanting Susan as a prize...some aspects of that characterization is given to Dr. Doom later on. As even Lee-Kirby realize that this was creepy and that's when Alicia Masters came in.

    kraven next movie BOIS!!!
    Don't know how I feel about that. Kraven's a supervillain who like Joker in modern Batman stories, literally doesn't care who Peter is behind the mask. Introducing him after Peter's identity is exposed just negates that. I guess you can combine Kraven and the spider-slayers...and do it a la HUNTED, with Spider-Slayers taking the role of Kraven bots and Jameson being one among many rich guys who hunts animal themed villains in Central Park. But to me that's not Kraven.

    Kraven can't process Spider-Man is not his totem. That there's a guy behind the mask. There's no version of him that works with him knowing who Spider-Man is.
    Last edited by Revolutionary_Jack; 07-03-2019 at 09:55 AM.

  13. #28
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Batman Begins 2005 View Post
    For me the best iteration of Spider-Man outside the comics is the Spectacular Spider-Man cartoon comfortably then Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse.
    If I had to rate all media (excluding comics) Spectacular would be first followed by Into the Spiderverse and then Spider-Man 2 followed closely by the PSA game. The Spectacular Spider-Man animated series is the top dog overall, IMO.
    Last edited by Celgress; 07-03-2019 at 09:58 AM.
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  14. #29
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    That's more than enough, wouldn't you say?
    That would put Jameson in the same company as Batman (who created Joker), Spider-Man (who created Venom, Carnage, co-created Harry Osborn, and co-created the Spider-Slayers). In the MCU, Tony Stark makes more villains than anyone above combined. And even in the comics, he's made many villains, including of course the time he became a bad guy in CIVIL WAR.

    Creating a villain doesn't mean you stop being the hero, or in Jameson's case, a good person, or the villain stops being the villain.

  15. #30
    Y'know. Pav's Avatar
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    Saw the film last night. I enjoyed it quite a bit -- especially the way the movie portrayed Mysterio and his tech and all that. Fun spin on the character, and I thought Gyllenhaal really shines once the audience was clued into his scheme.

    The twists were great, too.

    Still, I don't think this one was quite as strong as Homecoming or ITSV.

    -Pav, who figures a clone could help Peter regain his secret identity...
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