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  1. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    That would make zero sense here.

    This is an illusion created by Mysterio, not a nightmare Peter's having. Mysterio can't program a hologram with information he isn't privy to.

    Also, Tony is a connecting tissue between Beck and Peter. A mentor to both but with one still revering him, the other filled with resentment.
    That's part of the reason why it doesn't work. Quentin Beck has legit issues with Tony Stark. Tony fired him and then basically kept his stuff and passed it as his. Why would Quentin create an illusion of Tony Stark being disappointed in Peter rather than show an illusion that makes Iron Man as someone who never cared for Peter and was always a fake. And again you can't keep pitching Tony Stark as a paragon for Spider-Man to look up to and to browbeat Peter with, when Stark's f--kups continuously cause problems for Peter and the MCU. Thanks to Stark, you have the Vulture and now Mysterio and before that Ultron, Wanda and Pietro when they were bad-guys, breaking up the Avengers, Killian (part responsibility since that guy was hopeless). If you keep bringing that over and over again it literally doesn't make sense. And yet the movie's big emotional scene is all about Peter becoming like Tony Stark. This again is brand politics overriding the dramatic logic of the story and character.

    A Scarecrow sequence of the parent telling their kid or indicating that it's a disappointment only works when that parental authority is someone you can buy. If it isn't then the scene dies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jman27 View Post
    but the difference between Batman and Spiderman and even Tony is that Jameson willing pay and supported the creation of the villain and didnt take any responsibility for it.
    In the case of Scorpion, Jameson wanted him to bring that menace to justice. Scorpion went rogue on him. That's there in the original story itself. And again, that kind of thing is cancelled out by Peter goading Jameson to fund the Spider-Slayers.

    Batman and Spider-Man indirectly created their respective villains they didnt go out of their way to make Joker Joker, Eddie Brock venom. Jameson knew exactly what he was getting into
    In the case of Spider-Slayer, Peter Parker goaded Jameson into funding Smythe and even talked him into controlling the robots. Read ASM #25. That's there. Peter did that because it was a lean weak and he needed bad guys to beat up. So I don't think Peter creating villains is entirely unintentional. In the case of Venom and Carnage, that's more indirect yes. In the case of Batman, Joker was collateral damage in a fight. So he's definitely culpable to some extent.
    Last edited by Revolutionary_Jack; 07-03-2019 at 01:37 PM.

  2. #47
    Astonishing Member Jekyll's Avatar
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    Man, I truly hope my fandom never reaches the levels it has with you because it appears you can’t enjoy anything and are miserable.
    AKA FlashFreak
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    DC: The Flash (Jay & Wally), The Atom (Ray Palmer) , Jack Knight, Stargirl, & Shazam!.
    MARVEL: Daredevil, Spider-Man (Peter Parker), Iron Fist, Doctor Strange, Ant-Man (Scott Lang), & Iron Man.

    Current Pulls: Daredevil, Amazing Spider-Man, Venom, Immortal Hulk, Shazam,Guardians of The Galaxy, Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man, & Spider-Man Life Story.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jekyll View Post
    Man, I truly hope my fandom never reaches the levels it has with you because it appears you can’t enjoy anything and are miserable.
    Yeah at a certain point, it no longer becomes fun to be a fan.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    That's part of the reason why it doesn't work. Quentin Beck has legit issues with Tony Stark. Tony fired him and then basically kept his stuff and passed it as his. Why would Quentin create an illusion of Tony Stark being disappointed in Peter rather than show an illusion that makes Iron Man as someone who never cared for Peter and was always a fake.
    I honestly think you can't properly follow a narrative. You seem to perceive everything through a warped prism.

    "Quentin Beck has legit issues with Tony Stark." No, he doesn't. Sure, he has professional gripes with him and maybe he has good reason to not be his buddy but absolutely nothing that Tony did to Beck - or that Beck imagines he did to him - in any way justifies what Beck is doing as Mysterio.

    Also, an illusion that makes Tony out to be someone who never cared for Peter is fu*king stupid - Tony absolutely DID care for Peter. That's something that Peter would never doubt. Peter's issue is that he feels that he somehow failed Tony or will fail to live up to his faith in him.

    And Tony was "always a fake"? On what planet? Tony was a flawed human being, yes, but certainly a genuine one. Whatever his failings, being a phony wasn't one of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    And again you can't keep pitching Tony Stark as a paragon for Spider-Man to look up to and to browbeat Peter with, when Stark's f--kups continuously cause problems for Peter and the MCU.
    Why? Who said that someone has to be perfect in order to be admired or looked up to?

    I think we can say that Tony did more harm than good and that, even when he screwed up, he never acted with malicious goals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Thanks to Stark, you have the Vulture and now Mysterio and before that Ultron, Wanda and Pietro when they were bad-guys, breaking up the Avengers, Killian (part responsibility since that guy was hopeless). If you keep bringing that over and over again it literally doesn't make sense. And yet the movie's big emotional scene is all about Peter becoming like Tony Stark.
    Again, you have an entirely warped perspective.

    "Thanks to Stark" we have Vulture and Mysterio? No. These are both adults who have free will. The fact that they make the choice to become criminals isn't on Tony.

    Saying that Stark "created them" is flatly wrong. Do they blame Stark? Yes. But they're wrong to do so. They're criminals who make selfish, harmful choices and want to believe that they are somehow the wronged party.

    Ultron was a result of Tony's actions but it was a mistake, not a deliberate act and it's not as though he unleashed him and then sat back and said "not my problem."

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    This again is brand politics overriding the dramatic logic of the story and character.
    One, "brand politics" isn't a thing. It isn't.

    "Branding" is a thing. "Politics" is a thing. But you're trying to create a phrase that has no actual meaning.

    As for dramatic logic, you've proven that you don't know what that means.

    You believe the villains when they say the hero is responsible for what they, as free-thinking adults, choose to do.

    So when you see it as a flaw that Peter is shown to admire and look up to Tony, it doesn't mean that there isn't dramatic logic, it means you just don't understand it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    In the case of Scorpion, Jameson wanted him to bring that menace to justice. Scorpion went rogue on him.
    One, it's not up to Jameson to bring anybody to justice.

    Two, when you fund the creation of a super villain, you bear the responsibility when that villain goes rogue.

    Three, by Jameson's own admission in ASM #10, he hates Spider-Man and goes after him because he's jealous of him.

    As he says: "I'd give everything I own to be the man that he is! But I can never climb to his level! So all that remains for me is - to try and tear him down - because, heaven help me, I'm jealous of him!"

    Not the words of an altruistic private citizen looking to get a menace off the streets for the greater good.

    Even in the Scorpion story itself, Jameson fumes about how he hates Spider-Man and wants to rid the world of him. When it all goes to Hell, he privately admits "If not for me, there would be no Scorpion! Just to satisfy my personal hatred, I tried to destroy Spider-Man!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    That's there in the original story itself. And again, that kind of thing is cancelled out by Peter goading Jameson to fund the Spider-Slayers.
    Cancelled out?

    I'd love to see you try that defense in court. "Your honor, my client did commit a crime but you see he was goaded into it so, um, that clearly cancels out their wrongdoing!"

    Just to explain it to you - if someone goads someone, that doesn't actually mean that any criminal action taken by the person on the receiving end is then justified.

    Or that the person doing the goading bears equal - or any - responsibility for the other person's actions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    In the case of Venom and Carnage, that's more indirect yes. In the case of Batman, Joker was collateral damage in a fight. So he's definitely culpable to some extent.
    No, not culpable, in any way. Not to "some extent", not at all.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jekyll View Post
    Man, I truly hope my fandom never reaches the levels it has with you because it appears you can’t enjoy anything and are miserable.
    Don't worry. It seems like you're doing the fandom thing just right.

  6. #51
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    I enjoyed it but I will not partake in any manner of circle jerking, good or bad.

    I still like Tom Holland’s portrayal and I find that the second half towards the end is where it really picks up. My only issues are really Mysterio himself.

    He’s just not Michael Keaton interesting and I find him wasted on what is rubbery CGI, an incomplete costume, and what is the clunkiest exposition I’ve heard in a Marvel film. I will not defend what is only half the effort into bringing Mysterio to life. Jake is a fine actor, but even working with what he’s got he’s pretty much wasted on a narrative level for what is three other far more interesting fights and villains. And it also doesn’t seem like he has much to do either. I’m struggling to figure out why he came to this specific conclusion. As well as the internal logic of Mysterio’s illusions start to fall apart the more you think about it.

    It’s an alright film but Mysterio is pretty much passable at best. It just doesn’t seem like the film was ready to use him. Sure Mysterio kind of sucking is to be expected when Vulture knocked it out of the park, but really I expected more.
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    For anyone that needs to know why OMD is awful please search the internet for Linkara' s video's specifically his One more day review or his One more day Analysis.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperiorIronman View Post
    I enjoyed it but I will not partake in any manner of circle jerking, good or bad.

    I still like Tom Holland’s portrayal and I find that the second half towards the end is where it really picks up. My only issues are really Mysterio himself.

    He’s just not Michael Keaton interesting and I find him wasted on what is rubbery CGI, an incomplete costume, and what is the clunkiest exposition I’ve heard in a Marvel film. I will not defend what is only half the effort into bringing Mysterio to life. Jake is a fine actor, but even working with what he’s got he’s pretty much wasted on a narrative level for what is three other far more interesting fights and villains. And it also doesn’t seem like he has much to do either. I’m struggling to figure out why he came to this specific conclusion. As well as the internal logic of Mysterio’s illusions start to fall apart the more you think about it.

    It’s an alright film but Mysterio is pretty much passable at best. It just doesn’t seem like the film was ready to use him. Sure Mysterio kind of sucking is to be expected when Vulture knocked it out of the park, but really I expected more.
    Half the effort? What movie were you watching?

  8. #53
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    Spider-man Far from Home and yes, I still liked it.

    Not everybody feels the same way about a movie. It happens.
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    For anyone that needs to know why OMD is awful please search the internet for Linkara' s video's specifically his One more day review or his One more day Analysis.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperiorIronman View Post
    Spider-man Far from Home and yes, I still liked it.

    Not everybody feels the same way about a movie. It happens.
    A sarcastic response. How expected.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebSlingWonder View Post
    A sarcastic response. How expected.
    You say this like I should just slurp the kool aid. I thought the film was good and I only took issue with one element of it.
    -----------------------------------
    For anyone that needs to know why OMD is awful please search the internet for Linkara' s video's specifically his One more day review or his One more day Analysis.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperiorIronman View Post
    You say this like I should just slurp the kool aid. I thought the film was good and I only took issue with one element of it.
    Did I say you have to drink the kool aid? Did I say that at all or are you putting words in my mouth?

  12. #57
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    Just got back from seeing it and I loved it. Blows Homecoming out of the water. Best MCU Spidey appearance to date.

  13. #58
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    Mysterio's deep and sympathetic motivation for mass murder and attempted child assassination is an acronym.
    tag the movie made me cry

  14. #59
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    Didn't Jameson also create the second Mysterio (Daniel Berkhart) by hiring him to impersonate the (thought dead) Quinten Beck and haunt Spider-Man? Berkhart also would return to menace and blackmail Jameson as Mad Jack. He also gave more funding to the Stillwell family to create another "superhero" which would end up becoming the Human Fly.

    Not saying Jameson is a villain or anything, but he has inadvertently been the genesis for several of Spider-Man's headaches. Hiring bounty hunters, Anti-Spider Squads, etc. It's a bit more of a list than just the Scorpion.
    "The White Queen welcomes you, TO DIE!"

  15. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jekyll View Post
    Man, I truly hope my fandom never reaches the levels it has with you because it appears you canít enjoy anything and are miserable.
    If this is addressed to me, there are no "levels" to fandom. Anyone starting out now is the same as anyone who's been here since 1962. I most certainly am not. I most certainly can enjoy stuff, and am not miserable. I actually enjoy discussing stuff here on CBR and other places.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    I honestly think you can't properly follow a narrative. You seem to perceive everything through a warped prism.
    No it isn't warped and quit using words like that. Acting as if I am some kind of crazy person because you disagree with my point of view. I don't always understand or follow your logic (or that of other posters) either, so I simply pick and choose what to respond to. You can do the same.

    "Quentin Beck has legit issues with Tony Stark." No, he doesn't. Sure, he has professional gripes with him and maybe he has good reason to not be his buddy but absolutely nothing that Tony did to Beck - or that Beck imagines he did to him - in any way justifies what Beck is doing as Mysterio.
    You can have legitimate issues and those legitimate issues would still not be enough to justify acts of violence. Tony Stark fired Beck and took his work and passed it as his own. That said, it doesn't surprise me that someone with Disney/Marvel's history of stiffing creators does a story like that and make you side with the corporation because the guy complaining about credit is a nutcase but that's because that's the extreme cop-out such plots and stories have always followed.

    One, "brand politics" isn't a thing. It isn't.
    It actually is. Robert Downey Jr. is Disney-Marvel's highest paid actor and star of the first film of the MCU. So when Sony brought Spider-Man to Disney, the story became about Downey's stardom and image because in Sony's eyes, it meant MCU's biggest star and mascot with Spider-Man, and the decision to make Spider-Man and Iron Man subfranchise. If instead of Iron Man, you had Captain America out of the gate or Thor, it would be those characters that Spider-Man interacts more with in those movies.

    You believe the villains when they say the hero is responsible for what they, as free-thinking adults, choose to do.
    Adrian Toomes was a honest law-abiding citizen with no criminal record until Tony Stark and Damage Control shut down his entirely legal, bought-and-paid-for salvage contract. If not for the latter, he would have continued being the former. In the case of Mysterio, Stark fired him for being "unstable" (because we all know that Tony Stark is a "very stable genius") and then kept his stuff and renamed it without any hint as to what Mysterio was like before that, but more or less him not having a criminal record either. So those are two civilians who became radicalized into villains by Tony's actions. If you think Jameson is responsible for the Scorpion, which he is, I don't see how Tony Stark isn't responsible for these guys.

    So when you see it as a flaw that Peter is shown to admire and look up to Tony, it doesn't mean that there isn't dramatic logic, it means you just don't understand it.
    In dramatic terms, Peter is on a hero's journey, and Tony Stark is his mentor. In any hero's journey, the hero has to surpass the mentor in someway or the other. That's how it works. The way to do it, is give the mentor some flaw or error in judgment that the hero sees and then calls him out on. In Star Wars, Obi-Wan's flaw and error was lying to Luke about Darth Vader, and Luke surpassed Obi-Wan by redeeming his father when Kenobi thought he was lost. In the MCU, Spider-Man isn't allowed to surpass his mentor (because said mentor, Iron Man, is played by their biggest actor and is a hero in his own right, and whatever bouts of self-deprecation Tony undergoes, you can't have the narrative with newcomer Tom Holland surpassing Robert Downey Jr.) so that means he's constantly stuck in a frustrating loop, where you have the setup to give Peter that moment, but the actual catharsis never comes. There are ways to dodge this, give Peter a different superhero partner and so on. Or simply bring Uncle Ben, which removes Peter entirely from the hero's journey model altogether and takes the story in a more active and satisfying place.

    One, it's not up to Jameson to bring anybody to justice.
    As editor of Daily Bugle, you could say that his job as editor is to do that. And he's a crusading journalist/editor. And you know, it's not up to Spider-Man to bring anybody to justice either. Jameson is acting like a vigilante, well so is Spider-Man.

    Two, when you fund the creation of a super villain, you bear the responsibility when that villain goes rogue.
    When you fund a guy for a heroic purpose, bringing a vigilante to justice someone actively hunted and chased by the law, then that guy goes rogue and becomes a supervillain. Jameson didn't go in thinking he was making a supervillain and didn't actively do it. He has responsibility for that sure.

    Three, by Jameson's own admission in ASM #10, he hates Spider-Man and goes after him because he's jealous of him.
    That's Jameson thinking out loud and wondering if that's the case. Jameson has moments of self-reflection and so on but that comes and goes and changes. Other writers have given different explanations.

    Cancelled out?
    Have you read the Dan Slott She-Hulk issue with Spidey suing Jameson in court? The entire case never goes forward because Jameson's lawyer points out that Spidey created Venom and Carnage who killed people in the hundreds, and when they cite Peter as a "star witness" they bring up the fact that Peter occassionally touched up photographs back in the day (which wasn't uncommon back in the day, a lot of professional photographers did that then, so long as what they did reflected the general truth). So the entire case got thrown out. There's no legal case Spider-Man can make against Jameson. Morally, Jameson is responsible for Scorpion but moral responsibility isn't the same as legal responsibility. Legally, Spider-Man isn't responsible for Ben's death, but morally he is. And again, Jameson's defining characteristic isn't creating supervillains. On the whole, Jameson's good outweighs his bad.

    And in any case, to bring this back on topic...I don't think comparing Jameson to Alex Jones is truthful to the character or good story. Jameson always prints what he believes to be the truth. And when presented with hard evidence that's not so, he puts his opinions under editorial. That's a consistent feature of his characterization. Jameson, as Roger Stern showed, always prints the truth. You can't equate that character with Alex Jones.

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