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  1. #31
    Nostalgia Fanwanker Pharozonk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guy1 View Post
    Death Note plays Light Yagami as a psychopath and L as the hero so in that case it shuns anti-hero vigilantism.
    "In any time, there will always be a need for heroes." - the Time Trapper, Legion of Superheroes #61(1994)

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  2. #32
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    even he's a force of God and not really bound my human moral standards.
    I don't have a problem holding God to the same moral standards as humans.
    "Do as I say, not as I do" makes for horrible moral rolemodels.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guy1 View Post
    Basically. The question to me is the intent and justification of the killing. If in self-defense/defense of another it can be justified, but thinking someone's going to get away with something because the system doesn't work or that you're above the system seems wrong to me. Regardless of the method of killing.

  4. #34
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    I guess going back to the main post, I have different views of Dexter months after I finished watching the entire series. Last year I watched all 8 seasons of it, and yes, you get all caught up in loving Dexter and thinking he's such a badass.

    But now, looking back, he didn't need to kill all those people. He was obviously twisted himself and loved killing. He often stole cases from the police and went after them himself. Those people would have gotten what was coming, but he was too selfish to let the judicial system do it's thing. I dunno, the more I look back, the less I feel sorry for him. Just thinking about how he actually led police down a different path so he could have the kill...I dunno, I'm kinda starting to see him as the "scum" (as you put it) that some others think he is. Don't get me wrong, I love the show. It's really really great, but I dunno, I just dont think he's better than those he killed.

  5. #35
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    No they aren't just as bad. As for Dexter I think they ruined that show to appease people with that mentality the last 2 seasons are unwatchable and the last episode was just horrible.

  6. #36
    Mighty Member Joe Acro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CSTowle View Post
    That, and none of us know if anyone will be able to change their ways. One way or the other (again, that Jesus guy seemed pretty optimistic).

    And since when are we killing thieves?
    I don't recall the Spectre killing thieves at the moment (but maybe it happened and I'm just misremembering). But while we as people are unable to know if someone can change their ways, God (or the being the Spectre serves) is omniscient--all-knowing. The idea behind the Spectre is for him to kill the scum of the earth, those who are already damned, and have no hope of redemption--and does so presumably to prevent them from interfering in whatever God's plan is.

    I'd say Jesus did generally talk in a pretty optimistic tone, yeah, but he made it clear that there were paths people could take to avoid salvation, and one can presume the Spectre already knows those he kills are already on one of those paths.

    Anti-heroes do essentially still work the same way at the basic level--killing the scum of the Earth before they can harm more people--but they're human, and therefore potentially fallible. As Arvandor said, realistically someone like a Punisher could make a mistake. Or maybe the actions they take against these criminals cause unforeseen collateral damage that harms innocent civilians--an argument I've seen many make for why the Hulk may not be heroic or why Superman should've protected Metropolis better in Man of Steel.

    Interestingly, while we can root for the Punishers and Dexters of fiction as long as they don't make mistakes, the characters within those fictions retain the same qualms about such behavior as we do of vigilantes, which I think helps to balance the fantasy and the reality.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by AgentCooper View Post
    I guess going back to the main post, I have different views of Dexter months after I finished watching the entire series. Last year I watched all 8 seasons of it, and yes, you get all caught up in loving Dexter and thinking he's such a badass.

    But now, looking back, he didn't need to kill all those people. He was obviously twisted himself and loved killing. He often stole cases from the police and went after them himself. Those people would have gotten what was coming, but he was too selfish to let the judicial system do it's thing. I dunno, the more I look back, the less I feel sorry for him. Just thinking about how he actually led police down a different path so he could have the kill...I dunno, I'm kinda starting to see him as the "scum" (as you put it) that some others think he is. Don't get me wrong, I love the show. It's really really great, but I dunno, I just dont think he's better than those he killed.
    I'm going to disagree with you on this. Because on the show he is portrayed as a person who does in fact need to kill. Otherwise it would just be random civilians.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by lancerman View Post
    I'm going to disagree with you on this. Because on the show he is portrayed as a person who does in fact need to kill. Otherwise it would just be random civilians.
    The idea that he can be running through the streets with tandem Uzi's spraying, wrecking cars through buildings, jumping motorcycles through windows while lobbing grenades towards the crowds below, and there are no random civilians anywhere to be seen, not a single bullet or vehicle or piece of shrapnel will find an innocent bystander is pretty naive. That everybody who perished in such a firefight was guilty beyond reasonable doubt of crimes worthy of capital punishment, without exception, this is a not-too-well-thought-out childhood fantasy. It's almost like saying "Nuke Baghdad, there's no good guys there anyway."

  9. #39
    Were You There? Michael P's Avatar
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    Dexter doesn't really do that, dupont.

    Regardless, while he may have a compulsion to kill, he could always voluntarily commit himself to a mental institution where he would be safely kept and monitored so he wouldn't be able to kill anyone. Instead, he chooses to only kill people he feels are bad. That's not a moral choice, that's a rationalization.
    Last edited by Michael P; 08-05-2014 at 04:46 PM.
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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by dupont2005 View Post
    The idea that he can be running through the streets with tandem Uzi's spraying, wrecking cars through buildings, jumping motorcycles through windows while lobbing grenades towards the crowds below, and there are no random civilians anywhere to be seen, not a single bullet or vehicle or piece of shrapnel will find an innocent bystander is pretty naive. That everybody who perished in such a firefight was guilty beyond reasonable doubt of crimes worthy of capital punishment, without exception, this is a not-too-well-thought-out childhood fantasy. It's almost like saying "Nuke Baghdad, there's no good guys there anyway."
    I missed this episode.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Acro View Post
    I don't recall the Spectre killing thieves at the moment (but maybe it happened and I'm just misremembering). But while we as people are unable to know if someone can change their ways, God (or the being the Spectre serves) is omniscient--all-knowing. The idea behind the Spectre is for him to kill the scum of the earth, those who are already damned, and have no hope of redemption--and does so presumably to prevent them from interfering in whatever God's plan is.

    I'd say Jesus did generally talk in a pretty optimistic tone, yeah, but he made it clear that there were paths people could take to avoid salvation, and one can presume the Spectre already knows those he kills are already on one of those paths.


    Anti-heroes do essentially still work the same way at the basic level--killing the scum of the Earth before they can harm more people--but they're human, and therefore potentially fallible. As Arvandor said, realistically someone like a Punisher could make a mistake. Or maybe the actions they take against these criminals cause unforeseen collateral damage that harms innocent civilians--an argument I've seen many make for why the Hulk may not be heroic or why Superman should've protected Metropolis better in Man of Steel.

    Interestingly, while we can root for the Punishers and Dexters of fiction as long as they don't make mistakes, the characters within those fictions retain the same qualms about such behavior as we do of vigilantes, which I think helps to balance the fantasy and the reality.
    If this unavoidable, pre-damned path thing is something Christians accept it completely invalidates the core belief of their religion (redemption for all). Of course I already came to that conclusion for other reasons, but this should be clear to anyone. As to the Christian god's omniscience, I could point out examples from the tree of life on down where he seems pretty shocked that people are pretty awful (not as bad as he is, but they're not gods).

    And as to the Spectre's role as his hangman (setting aside his condemning people to a fate infinitely worse than death before they have a chance at the advertised redemption, since apparently there's no such thing), why does he need someone to do his killing for him? And from such a flawed individual (from the Ostrander series I read, at the least)? Can't he call down a lightning bolt and smite them, or did Zeus copyright that? Then again, that's what you get looking for logic in religion. That's why I prefer the non-magical vigilantes, like the Punisher and Dexter. Still think they're in the wrong though.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by CSTowle View Post
    If this unavoidable, pre-damned path thing is something Christians accept it completely invalidates the core belief of their religion (redemption for all). Of course I already came to that conclusion for other reasons, but this should be clear to anyone. As to the Christian god's omniscience, I could point out examples from the tree of life on down where he seems pretty shocked that people are pretty awful (not as bad as he is, but they're not gods).

    And as to the Spectre's role as his hangman (setting aside his condemning people to a fate infinitely worse than death before they have a chance at the advertised redemption, since apparently there's no such thing), why does he need someone to do his killing for him? And from such a flawed individual (from the Ostrander series I read, at the least)? Can't he call down a lightning bolt and smite them, or did Zeus copyright that? Then again, that's what you get looking for logic in religion. That's why I prefer the non-magical vigilantes, like the Punisher and Dexter. Still think they're in the wrong though.
    There's different sects of the Christian religion but the belief is not in redemption for all but all believers. And even in that there's differing beliefs.

  13. #43
    Amazing Member Fenris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lancerman View Post
    Dexter's a mentally diseased individual who would kill anyways, regardless of if he focused his habits on murderers or not. So I'd give him a lot more leeway. He's a guy whose options were 1. be locked up forever, 2. commit suicide, 3. do what he does and be free, 4. kill without prejudice and be free until he gets caught.
    #1 is far and away the best of those options. Why doesn't Dexter do it? Because he'd have to live without his kill-fix?


    On another note I make a distinction between people who go out to kill and someone like Rambo, James Bond, or Jack Bauer who are put in situations where to complete their mission they have to kill.
    Right. The whole point of the first Rambo title, First Blood, was that he didn't want to kill people, and was absolutely pushed into a corner.

    But these are all action heroes, which means that the plot is bound to push them into corners so that we can watch them killing people. Which is itself kind of horrible, when you think about it.


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  14. #44
    Mighty Member Joe Acro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CSTowle View Post
    If this unavoidable, pre-damned path thing is something Christians accept it completely invalidates the core belief of their religion (redemption for all). Of course I already came to that conclusion for other reasons, but this should be clear to anyone. As to the Christian god's omniscience, I could point out examples from the tree of life on down where he seems pretty shocked that people are pretty awful (not as bad as he is, but they're not gods).
    I don't know of anything within Christianity that explicitly states there's such a thing as redemption for all. Jesus's death is intended as a means of redemption, through him and belief in him. (Side note: redemption is a really complex thing once you start researching it.) As CliffHanger2 just said, how that's measured varies from religion to religion. But the end result is that some people (by whatever the criteria is) simply won't be granted salvation.

    There might be a branch of Christianity that believes in redemption for all (I'm no expert), but we have to assume the Spectre wasn't designed under such a notion.

    And none of that is a shot at omniscience. He can still know what is going to happen, but not interfere in letting them happen--letting us make the good or bad choice by our own will (whichever it happens to be). Sort've like that classic parent/child discussion "I'm disappointed in you. I was pretty sure I knew what you were doing/I told you not to/didn't want to believe it. But you went and did it anyway, and what's done is done."

    And as to the Spectre's role as his hangman (setting aside his condemning people to a fate infinitely worse than death before they have a chance at the advertised redemption, since apparently there's no such thing), why does he need someone to do his killing for him? And from such a flawed individual (from the Ostrander series I read, at the least)? Can't he call down a lightning bolt and smite them, or did Zeus copyright that?
    Let's work under the premise that the people he kills are "beyond redemption". I'm pretty sure they've been described that way at some point. Spectre is basically Death incarnate--he travels the world ferrying the souls of the damned to the afterlife, usually in some sort of ironic fashion. But unlike the typical Grim Reaper, who goes after anyone, Spectre specifically goes after those who are damned. Why doesn't the Presence do it himself? I don't think the Spectre ever says, but I suppose you might as well ask why the Presence has angels. As for being tied to a host, it's supposed to be some sort of control--being tethered to human soul keeps the Spectre entity focused somehow.

    Then again, that's what you get looking for logic in religion. That's why I prefer the non-magical vigilantes, like the Punisher and Dexter. Still think they're in the wrong though.
    Well, this isn't so much looking for logic in religion and more trying to interpret the fictional stories involving the modern Spectre. That said, I can understand the preference. I also prefer a more grounded vigilante like Punisher, for various reasons, and also think he's in the wrong.

  15. #45
    Amazing Member Fenris's Avatar
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    The Ostrander version of the Spectre was kind of ambiguous in his theology. After all, Jim Corrigan became the Spectre because he refused to accept God's justice- he insisted that he could do it better himself.

    To which God basically said, "Okay, let's see how that works out for you." He sent Corrigan back with enormous power to test his idea that justice was a simple matter of killing all the bad people. And Corrigan went right to it, and kept at it for decades; too stubborn to see the many ways that his approach wasn't working.

    He calls himself "the Wrath of God," but there's a lot of cognitive dissonance at work; he doesn't think about why he's barred from Heaven, and he willfully ignores a big part of his conversation with God (i.e. the part where God told him he was wrong.)

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    Not until near the end of the series, anyway!

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