Anti-Heroes like the Punisher or Dexter being as bad as the scum they kill

[Shawn Hopkins]

He really doesn't work in stories with super-heroes, which is why Ennis' Punisher MAX is the best iteration of the character.

Or super villains. The story where he attacks Stilt Man's funeral drove that home for me. Seeing him poison and blow up a bunch of guys whose most heinous crimes were bank robbery, bad fashion sense, and getting in the way of Spider-Man's fist just felt mean-spirited and cruel. They're characters from a gentler type of story.

[The Beast Of Yucca Flats]

Or super villains. The story where he attacks Stilt Man's funeral drove that home for me. Seeing him poison and blow up a bunch of guys whose most heinous crimes were bank robbery, bad fashion sense, and getting in the way of Spider-Man's fist just felt mean-spirited and cruel. They're characters from a gentler type of story.

Agreed, with the addition of 'and the nastier/more destructive types like Osborne/Bullseye/etc. being kept off limits because a good villain is too good to lose blah blah wank wank.'

[Darrell D.]

Although, it was fun watching him shoot Wolverine in the balls and then run him over with a steam-roller.
Or when he used Spidey as a human shield against a giant Russian man with huge breasts.

[Shawn Hopkins]

Agreed, with the addition of 'and the nastier/more destructive types like Osborne/Bullseye/etc. being kept off limits because a good villain is too good to lose blah blah wank wank.'

I did like the issue where the Punisher did what all of the other superheroes, except Hawkeye, were too chicken to do. Try to assassinate Osborn. Of course he fails for the reasons you mention.

[Darrell D.]

And wasn't he carved up like a chicken at the end of that issue by Daken?

[dupont2005]

And the person you were talking to was talking about Dexter.

Things get confusing on the internet sometimes. You ever misread a post? You ever quote the wrong guy? Probably not.

[Shawn Hopkins]

And wasn't he carved up like a chicken at the end of that issue by Daken?

Not at the end of the issue, but later in the storyline.

[Francisco]

Castle kills criminals basically because he loves killing. He uses his family's deaths as a justification for this. The character is a mass murderer that kills 'bad' guys, because the war he was in ended (Vietnam). The stories about him (mainly Ennis' stories) can be very gripping. But the character is really nothing more than a murderer.

I think this is nonsense. The Punisher doesn't have to be a serial killer/stone cold killer/pleasure seeking murderer. He can be just like the guy from the Thomas Jane movie. A good man who got his entire family murdered by mobsters. Now he fights murderers, rapists and saddists all over the world. He deals with those criminals that due to power and wealth can escape the justice system. You don't have to have him killing bank robbers or shoplifters.

[Shawn Hopkins]

I think this is nonsense. The Punisher doesn't have to be a serial killer/stone cold killer/pleasure seeking murderer. He can be just like the guy from the Thomas Jane movie. A good man who got his entire family murdered by mobsters. Now he fights murderers, rapists and saddists all over the world. He deals with those criminals that due to power and wealth can escape the justice system. You don't have to have him killing bank robbers or shoplifters.

You don't have to, but that's generally how he's been portrayed since Ennis.

[Darrell D.]

In the Ennis stories, he kills pretty bad people. But Ennis never lets the reader forget just how much of his soul he lost. 'The Long Cold Dark Night' arc laid out exactly what kind of man Castle is, and what kind of life --for better or worse--he has created for himself.

[Shawn Hopkins]

Sorry if my memory mangled this, but for me The Ennis take is summed up in a scene in one of early issues where he kills a criminal and the woman who was being menaced tires to thank him. The Punisher just asks her why. He was not doing it for her.

[Kid A]

You don't have to, but that's generally how he's been portrayed since Ennis.

It's basically the logical conclusion of that kind of character who might kill bad guys, but is pretty gleeful about it and doesn't have much restraint.

[Darrell D.]

Sorry if my memory mangled this, but for me The Ennis take is summed up in a scene in one of early issues where he kills a criminal and the woman who was being menaced tires to thank him. The Punisher just asks her why. He was not doing it for her.

Yeah, that was early in the Marvel Knights book. He stops a guy from hurting a prostitute, and the hooker says,
'thanks!' and she says, 'For saving my life, man!' He just replies, 'Right.'
The indication being the hooker didn't have much of a life to begin with, but Castle got to kill a scumbag.

[Darrell D.]

It's basically the logical conclusion of that kind of character who might kill bad guys, but is pretty gleeful about it and doesn't have much restraint.

Well, I wouldn't say Castle is gleeful...he is a warrior that is at peace in conflict.

[Shawn Hopkins]

Yeah, that was early in the Marvel Knights book. He stops a guy from hurting a prostitute, and the hooker says,
'thanks!' and she says, 'For saving my life, man!' He just replies, 'Right.'
The indication being the hooker didn't have much of a life to begin with, but Castle got to kill a scumbag.

His only soft spot is for kids. He was willing to start World War III for one in Mother Russia.