How would you fix the Robins and Batgirls' origins in a new modern timeline?

[dietrich]

I'd set a permanent age for Clark, Bruce, Hall, Barry, etc around 38-40. Through the wonders of comic books, the more human members of the Big 7 would have had their aging slowed a bit and their vitality preserved.

When Bruce had been operating as Batman for roughly 3-5 years, he'd take on Dick as a ward. After some training, Dick would have become Robin at 12-13, Nightwing at 17-18, and he is currently around 25 (as are the rest of his generation of Titans and Barbara). Bruce would have adopted Dick before taking in Jason
Jason was with Bruce about a year before Dick became Nightwing. He'd have been adopted shortly before his death, and he is currently about 21-22. He operated as Robin for perhaps two years, and was believed dead for several years before Under the Red Hood.
Tim would be 17-18, as would his YJ compatriots. He became Robin around 13. Cassandra Cain is older than Tim but younger than Bruce. Spoiler is Tim's age. At some point after both his parents deaths, Bruce adopts him. Cassandra was adopted most recently.
Damien would be about 13 and has been Robin for about a year. For a while, he and Tim are both active as very different Robins. Jon would be at most one year older than Damien. This timeline affords the necessary time for natural conception and aging for Damien.

Exact ages would not be shown in panel for any character, and birthdays would NOT be shown....EVER. The above information would inform how characters are written. It isn't a perfect timeline, but it is close enough that I think all but the most stringent continuity buffs could accept it.

I like the idea of exact ages not being shown on panel. That's another problem with Tim if he's 16 according to Tec and began his campaign for Robin at age 13 [again according to Rebirth Tec] does that mean that he was Robin for a few months/weeks before Damian took the mantle. Tec revealing his age raises so many questions.

[nhienphan2808]

I'm confuced, I have seen Bruce's parents die the same way 100 times by now, then finding the cave, how much richer is that?

Top Olympic acrobat athlete didn't work for Tim wouldn't work for Dick and robs Dick the "flying" and performance elements.

How does that take away the flying and "performance" aspect?You can be winning prices and still "perform".

The thing about Tim is he's supposed to be a normal guy who had a suppost system outside of Batman, least physical, so he has to work his ass of on that. He's just more cerebral than Dick, and Dick learned to be brainy and a detective from the longest time being with Bruce. New52 Dick is still a random circus boy (not even the so called "best" but just "circus") but Tim is BOTH an top athlete AND smart that's leagues better than both Dick and Jason, plus both parents. That's why it didn't work for Tim. But elevating Dick's status i think can help because that way, he wouldn't be so insecure about who he is outside of Batman. Something to fall back on, and less power imbalance. Unless he is the ONLY Robin ever which allows for development alongside Bruce, i just feel like he HAS to be a Boy Wonder even before he's Robin. Early era Dicks didn't see that class imbalance, and he was able to be healthy and good to others after him.

Golden Age and Silver Age Bruce is a wealthy socialite and sometimes he's even broke. 70s Bruce is a millionaire. Post-crisis Bruce is "i have a butler and my family is the richest" billionaire rich, 2010 Bruce is "i fund the entire JL and the hero world and my family is the founding family of Gotham, and also i have lots friends and cousins and grandfathers, Robin who" rich, but his ******* ness to his kids increased the more "elite" he got. "My parents are dead"being such a trauma is a post 2000 thing. he's more depressed the rich kid way the richer he got too. Which doesn't really need to be changed. Dick of all Robins remained un-updated and that's a problem.

[CPSparkles]

Dick doesn't need to be an Olympic athlete. I hate that idea. The flying Graysons are iconic. That works just fine. Olympic athlete smacks of insecurity and overcompensation that's why no one liked it when it was given to Tim.

Tim I would change the way he discovered B&R identity to something that involves brain cells if that's meant to show how smart he is. Also less stalking and intruding on a family in mourning. In fact I'd give Tim a completely fresh origin and not like the Tynion one where he becomes robin not because there's no one else but because he's the only one that can do it. Nightwing isn't good enough to do it it has to be him because reasons. That's an awful origin and makes Tim look like a psycho.

I'm also not a fan of Duke being the 1st batkid. That's stupid.

[Tzigone]

Tim I would change the way he discovered B&R identity to something that involves brain cells if that's meant to show how smart he is. Also less stalking and intruding on a family in mourning.

I'm not sure what I'd use. The stalking and disturbing view of Batman and Robin at first is creepy to me, but I'm not sure I'd want to remove all of it. For the creepy aspect (of thinking Dick should give up his life to serve the role of Robin again), there does need to be something that makes him fixate on Batman, I think. I don't mind removing creepy aspect, but do want to be careful not to make character too perfect/never-wrong (though there does seem to a large number of people who don't find it creepy the way I do). I'd prefer less Jason-bashing, from everyone. You'd think that'd be tied to Jason's issues with the family, but honestly I'm not at all sure the unfair perception of young Jason has ever been addressed in any depth.

I've considered the notion of Tim already living next door and seeing the Batmobile too often. If he was an adult, him traveling in similar circles and noticing Bruce's absences from party circuit (or injuries) and matching them up to Batman's big battles could work, but that's harder to sell with a kid, who wouldn't be at such events. Maybe he could go to the same school as Jason, and maybe get tipped off that way?

I'm also not a fan of Duke being the 1st batkid. That's stupid.

Yes, it is. I tend to forget Duke met Bruce previously (still wouldn't make him first if Dick was the age he was supposed to be). Just have him meet later when he and other kids have their group, IMO.

Golden Age and Silver Age Bruce is a wealthy socialite and sometimes he's even broke. 70s Bruce is a millionaire. Post-crisis Bruce is "i have a butler and my family is the richest" billionaire rich, 2010 Bruce is "i fund the entire JL and the hero world and my family is the founding family of Gotham, and also i have lots friends and cousins and grandfathers, Robin who" rich, but his ******* ness to his kids increased the more "elite" he got. "My parents are dead"being such a trauma is a post 2000 thing. he's more depressed the rich kid way the richer he got too. Which doesn't really need to be changed. Dick of all Robins remained un-updated and that's a problem.

I kinda think Bruce has gotten too rich. I mean, moon-base rich is ridiculous to me (I looked up potential real-world cost, though admittedly alien/advanced tech may change that in DCU). But also, it enables him to make everyone else indebted to him (knowingly or unknowingly) such as when he bought the Daily Planet. It's too easily used to make other heroes indebted to him or give him an upper hand with them - at least from an audience perspective, he has the power to kick them out of their jobs or their satellite or whatnot and they've never repaid that kind of thing (as they financially can't).

[Aahz]

I know right. I don't much care for the ages so long they make some sort of sense and Dick grayson came to live with Batman when he was young. It's important that they have a strong special bond. Different from Bruce and the other Robins. Red Robins and Signals.

I think it is as important for Jason and Damian.

Jasons whole motivation in "Under the Red Hood" revolves around their Father Son relation, that simply if have Jason become Robin when he is almost an adult, and kill him already of after a few month, the whole thing doesn't really work.

Damian would imo be a quite different character when would have been much older when he became Robin, and it would also age all the other characters massively up.

For Tim, Duke and the Girls the ages are imo less important.

[Tzigone]

Jasons whole motivation in "Under the Red Hood" revolves around their Father Son relation, that simply if have Jason become Robin when he is almost an adult, and kill him already of after a few month, the whole thing doesn't really work.

I agree Jason needs to be 13 or younger, and have at least a year with Bruce.

For Tim, Duke and the Girls the ages are imo less important.

True, Tim simply didn't have a child/parent relationship with Bruce for the bulk of his early days, so him being a big older doesn't matter too much - especially since he aged relatively quickly until his own series started, so we saw little of him at 13, comparatively speaking. Steph was really Tim's supporting character at first, so it's only in being tied to him (and to a degree, Cass) that her ages matters to me. Cass was young, but adultish in functioning (having been on her own so long) when we met her, and I'd probably tie her age to Tim and Steph. Duke is less important, IMO, especially if he moves more along to his own book (as the mini might have indicated). I'd actually probably say being just a couple years older than Damian is nice, but not essential to keep a certain dynamic. His relationship with Bruce is less important to me. I actually prefer the version of Barbara where she was already an adult when becoming Batgirl and was not Batman's protege, but I will say that while I like her older, I think an audience will accept her anywhere from the 7 years older than Dick of the 1970s to a few years younger than him. DickBabs shippers tend to like a closer age (I ship them, but like the age gap), but shippers aren't the most important segment and are easily enough not alienated even with the bigger gap, so long as Dick is grown.

[Aahz]

When it comes to other changes of the Background.

If you would really drop the circus from Dicks background, I would make him probably an teen actor (or some sort of social media star) with a strong background in Gymnastics and Martial Arts.

With Tim my idea would probably add something to his background, like that he was as a kid on some sort of High Society event where Bruce and Dick were also present, that got robed by some Supervillain, and he witnessed than how they vanished before Batman and Robin appeared. That could have even happened several times, I mean getting attacked by a Supervillain is probably part of the schedule of most High Society events in Gotham .

Duke's origin is btw. also very problematic when you go back to a more pre flashpoint like timeline, because if you just put Zero Year somewhere in the pre Robin part of Batman career, Duke could have been either just a Toddler back than, or he would be close to Dicks age.

[Aahz]

True, Tim simply didn't have a child/parent relationship with Bruce for the bulk of his early days, so him being a big older doesn't matter too much - especially since he aged relatively quickly until his own series started, so we saw little of him at 13, comparatively speaking.

Tim was Highschool student for almost his whole time as Robin, you could have probably have him become Robin at the age of 15, without changing much appart from compressing the time line even more.

Steph was really Tim's supporting character at first, so it's only in being tied to him (and to a degree, Cass) that her ages matters to me. Cass was young, but adultish in functioning (having been on her own so long) when we met her, and I'd probably tie her age to Tim and Steph.

Cass pre flashpoint roughly two years older than Tim, and had her 18th Birthday relativly early in her Solo series. But you could probably put her age anywhere from 15 to 18 (or maybe even up to 20) and it wouldn't really change much. Due to her upbringing she acts anyway not like someone else of her age, and she has anyway not really a live outside of Batgirl.

[nhienphan2808]

If you would really drop the circus from Dicks background, I would make him probably an teen actor (or some sort of social media star) with a strong background in Gymnastics and Martial Arts.

This is nice. Exactly what i would look for.

Dick doesn't need to be an Olympic athlete. I hate that idea. The flying Graysons are iconic. That works just fine. Olympic athlete smacks of insecurity and overcompensation that's why no one liked it when it was given to Tim.

Im starting to get frustrated with how ideas in this thread keep being their pre 2000 narrative.

Tim's advantage was always having fairly well off parents. That overcompensation is pushed into him only after he gone off the rails with all of them killed and his predecessors branded failures with no reason of him to even become Robin. Also he gets more depressed the more "genius" he is. Dick is not like Tim. He needs something to fall back on outside of his Batfam identity. With Bruce much richer and more powerful/ controlling even when he started, Dick needs to be independent in his status. He's the "best" acrobat in the entire world, then you have to show it and show this modern Bruce's respect for that and his need for it He kept getting treated as "random orphan" that's lucky to be with Batman , otherwise completely got lost in the system and forgotten, also the best only because his family is the best, so he kept the "i owe Bruce my life i'm nothing without him" narrative. That worked back in a time when Bruce was nice and impossibly idealistic and not rich and he too, was more confident.

People have said that he COULD be anything, win prices and awards, but he abandoned all and lived a life of danger and herosim and admired him for it. That was a nice thought. But since when in his 80 years is he ever written as that, as COULD be anything else, having other resources, options and ambitions, and CHOSE this life instead ? He was even thrown into a juvie and left to die. I want to see that written, not just speculated. Better if this status is something he worked for too, just like he worked for Robin, and not because he's BORN the best.

[CPSparkles]

This is nice. Exactly what i would look for.



Im starting to get frustrated with how ideas in this thread keep being their pre 2000 narrative.

Tim's advantage was always having fairly well off parents. That overcompensation is pushed into him only after he gone off the rails with all of them killed and his predecessors branded failures with no reason of him to even become Robin. Also he gets more depressed the more "genius" he is. Dick is not like Tim. He needs something to fall back on outside of his Batfam identity. With Bruce much richer and more powerful/ controlling even when he started, Dick needs to be independent in his status. He's the "best" acrobat in the entire world, then you have to show it and show this modern Bruce's respect for that and his need for it He kept getting treated as "random orphan" that's lucky to be with Batman , otherwise completely got lost in the system and forgotten, also the best only because his family is the best, so he kept the "i owe Bruce my life i'm nothing without him" narrative. That worked back in a time when Bruce was nice and impossibly idealistic and not rich and he too, was more confident.

People have said that he COULD be anything, win prices and awards, but he abandoned all and lived a life of danger and herosim and admired him for it. That was a nice thought. But since when in his 80 years is he ever written as that, as COULD be anything else, having other resources, options and ambitions, and CHOSE this life instead ? He was even thrown into a juvie and left to die. I want to see that written, not just speculated. Better if this status is something he worked for too, just like he worked for Robin, and not because he's BORN the best.

Dick doesn't need anything like that to fall back on. YOU need him to have something like that but that is due to your own insecurities.

Why do you need to show that he is the best with medals when everyone accepts that he's the best? Again fan insecurities

So what Bruce is rich and Tim is rich? Dick Grayson doesn't need medals to fall back on he has the fact that he is Dick Grayson.

Why get frustrated? You asked for peoples opinions not for people to pander to you.

[nhienphan2808]

Dick doesn't need anything like that to fall back on. YOU need him to have something like that but that is due to your own insecurities.

Why do you need to show that he is the best with medals when everyone accepts that he's the best? Again fan insecurities

So what Bruce is rich and Tim is rich? Dick Grayson doesn't need medals to fall back on he has the fact that he is Dick Grayson.

Why get frustrated? You asked for peoples opinions not for people to pander to you.

What?
I better stop when this has come to personal attacks.

[nhienphan2808]

As for Jason, i liked what Titans does for his arguments about police that's more relatable , but not sure if it was better for him. I liked the good studious boy he was.

[mikelmcknight72]

I'd leave the pre-Crisis origins largely intact. Here's why:

Dick - The Flying Graysons origin is far to iconic to change at this point. He's also quite good as a detective as amply shown pre-New 52. Along with Alfred, he's the glue of the family.
Jason - The street kid origin works, and making him the "bad boy" of the Robins, as well as the one with the most street smarts, helps set him apart. He was not present at the circus when Dick's parents died.
Tim - Tim's origin of already being essentially an underage private detective helps set him apart. He's the most cerebral and book smart member of the family, and is at least Dick's equal as an investigator. A much younger Tim was present at the circus the night the Graysons died, per his debut origin. By the time of Tim's introduction, his wealthy father is a widower. I'd keep him dying at some point, though I'd have it be a health issue rather than murder. I'd go with ALS. Able bodied when the Graysons died, wheelchair bound at introduction, succumbs after finding out Tim is Robin and Bruce is Batman. Before he dies, he give his blessing to that. He also lets Tim and Bruce know that Bruce adopting Tim has his blessing.
Damian - I don't know which origin applied when. I'd just go with the natural conception/birth/aging. He's the snarky, prickly Robin who is covering some jealousy of Dick and Tim.

As I've written before, the adoptions of Dick, Jason, and Tim need to be in place. It helps soften the Bat Jerk characterization, as it shows that Bruce views them first and foremost as sons rather than soldiers. I'd have Dick and Jason both come into Bruce's care around 12. They undergo about a year of training before going out as Robin for the first time. Tim would spend somewhat less time in training, as he'd already been training on his own before the arc that introduced him.

I've seen some comments referring to Tim as stalkerish in the beginning. Detectives are, by definition, nosy and at least a bit stalkerish when pursuing a case. If you are going to say it about Tim, you have to say it about virtually every member of the Bat family, including Gordon and the Gotham PD.

[Godlike13]

When you start rewarding these characters with fictional medals, paper titles, and overly obvious ‘look how amazing this guy is’ it kind of misses the point. They goal should be not to flat out tell readers that so and so is this good or that great but for readers to infer it for themselves. This is one of the reasons I started to become turned off from Tim. Olympic athlete lacks subtlety, and quite frankly it is kind of boring. It becomes this awesome successful athlete becoming a superhero. Oh, what a journey.

[nhienphan2808]

You are right for Tim. I’m just saying Dick would grow up to be separated with Bruce and be his equal so he better have better foundation outside of Bruce to not always try to get his only resource/family’s approval even when he is Nightwing. Tim is just Robin.
Come to think of it, stuntman works best for everything.