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  1. #31
    Mighty Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Damian’s origin remains the same. He was conceived shortly before Bruce makes his debut as Batman so his age (give or take a few months) reflects how long Bruce has been batmaning for. Only change I’d make is that Damian never dies but instead is critically injured which leads to Bruce going temporarily off the rails in his attempts to save him.
    That's the one I don't like, because I don't like Bruce involved with, or even knowing about, Ra's, Talia, or the League of assassins back before he became Batman. I hate it when all the villains have prior connections, especially retconned ones. And I don't like Bruce learning from bad guys (his later training with Shiva and Tim's trainer really irk me), because it often leaves the issue of him either being willing to let them do bad while he learned, or doing nothing about them for the next several years after he learned of evil deeds (because they were retconned into history). But without speed-aging Damian, there aren't a lot of options. If you let Bruce be older (which I prefer), maybe Ra's and Talia could enter the scene when Dick is 14ish and Damian be conceived then.

    He finds and rescues out-of-comission Babs and discovered Batman and Robin's identity and also come to them through knowing her,
    I don't think Barbara should need to be rescued by an untrained kid, unless you can really sell it. Would have early in her recovery. And a good explanation of why he's where she is. And how does he learn their identities through her? Was she already doing their tech support or he figured out that way, or did she betray their trust and tell him?

    I'd make Tim less of a replacement for Jason because you can't replace a son with a random kid but also because it minimises the need to blame and vilify the dead victim. Tim's intro was built on trashing Jason so I'd get rid of any comparisons to Jason. Rather have bruce only talk about Jason the son not Jason the sidekick.
    I agree bashing Jason was built into Tim's intro and that is a problem. Also, I found Tim quite creepy at first. He was fixated on "Batman and Robin" with little regard for the actual individuals. He expected Dick to just give up his entire life to fit in the role he thought Batman needed to be the kind of Batman Tim wanted him to be. Rather dehumanizing towards those two, especially Dick. I've head some attribute it to PTSD. I know little about PTSD, and less about comic-book PTSD, and so all I can say is that it was very disturbing to me, and I was glad when that particular element (not seeing them as people) passed. I also never could buy the notion that he actually regularly followed them around taking pictures and they never noticed.

    I did, however, feel that (post-COIE) Jason was much more a replacement for Dick than Tim was for Jason, in-universe (from audience perspective, both were replacements, but Tim more, since Dick has been so long working elsewhere). They had Bruce do a great disservice to Jason in that version. He even called the poor kid Robin instead of by his name when he took him home. Bruce said he took him on as a partner because he missed Dick. I think Alfred even called him a "replacement son" (to Tim). Tim wasn't Bruce's child, and for a lot of (real world) years did not have any kind of parent/child relationship with Bruce.

    Robin is a mantle created to save at risk young boys and give them purpose it wasn't created to endanger safe and stable young boys. That's what Tim's origin turned Robin into.
    I don't think it was created to save those boys. I think it was created to give one boy the opportunity to do what Bruce himself wished he could do at that age, after his own parents were murdered. Later others got it for other reasons.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 07-05-2019 at 05:28 AM.

  2. #32
    Astonishing Member Nite-Wing's Avatar
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    The general theme seems to be making Bruce older to accommodate all the robins when in reality it should be the other way around
    Dick has been in his 20s for the last 30+ years its about time he became a teen again
    Jason could become the first Robin for a time make him older
    Tim is not Robin and doesn't exist
    Babs goes back to being around Bruce's age
    Kate is fine she and Bruce are the same age
    Luke is fine as is
    Duke should be older around Jason's age

    Damian doesn't exist

  3. #33

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    This is probably a controversial opinion, especially for Nightwing fans, but my feeling is and has always been if Robin is going to be part of the Batman mythos, it should be Dick Grayson as a teenager. So with that, I feel the original origin for Dick Grayson is just fine.

  4. #34
    Mighty Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Dick has been in his 20s for the last 30+ years its about time he became a teen again
    This is unacceptable to me because I like Dick better than Bruce. De-aging him is destroying all his hard-won growth and diminishing the character. Demoting him back to sidekick after her earned his own mark as a hero does not work for me. I was very unhappy about both his and Barbara's de-agings (not only in N52, but before that). I do also think the parent/child dynamic is important, and I wouldn't have him older than 13 when his parents die.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    Yeah, how old are Luke and Jean in the canon? Every canon.
    Jean Paul

    Pre Flashpoint:
    - was a Graduate Student when he first apeared
    - was 22 or 23 after the end of No Man's Land
    - not 25 yet shortly before his death
    - that would make him roughly Dicks age

    Post Flashpoint his age is unknown

    Luke Fox

    Was 23 when he became Batwing. (Dick and Barbara were at the Time still supposed to be 21)

  6. #36
    Incredible Member SixSpeedSamurai's Avatar
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    Everyone goes back to their Pre-Flashpoint origins, the end.

    Damian dies as Morrison intended.
    Pulls: Batman, Detective Comics, Flash Forward, and Young Justice.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    This is unacceptable to me because I like Dick better than Bruce. De-aging him is destroying all his hard-won growth and diminishing the character. Demoting him back to sidekick after her earned his own mark as a hero does not work for me. I was very unhappy about both his and Barbara's de-agings (not only in N52, but before that). I do also think the parent/child dynamic is important, and I wouldn't have him older than 13 when his parents die.
    They meant if they were to reset everything. To do that you go all the way back to Dick and set him up as the first.

    For Tim, yeah maybe not "rescue" Babs. im just saying him folllowing them, taking photos in an era of technology and rescuing Batman and Nightwing untrained without them detecting him makes no sense.

    ( this is probably the reason he is so called "smart", i mean modern Bruce needs to update his game on securing their identity, this is not the 90s anymore. You are supposed to believe he was so smart, sleuthing out their identity even with all the security and tec and fake information 2010s Batman has around him, but then you read the actual 80s origin and realise he's just neurotic and creepy and had no dectective skills)

    I 'd let him know her first and be closer to her before he comes to them. She's the other "normal past no tragedy, inspired by Batman" smart and tech support in the fam so she would spot him trying to be a hero. He needs to have something else to his character rather than be Dick Grayson's neurotic fanboy but appearantly so much "better" just because dc wants him to. I'd imagine it's 1 or 2 years after Jason's death and she's finished her therapy but not quite ready to back to work yet and meets him, and that's how he sees the need to become Robin. She along with Dick would help ground him and define his role when he's still wee and not into it yet. I always think it's a waste they never interacted more.
    Last edited by nhienphan2808; 07-05-2019 at 06:42 AM.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    That's the one I don't like, because I don't like Bruce involved with, or even knowing about, Ra's, Talia, or the League of assassins back before he became Batman. I hate it when all the villains have prior connections, especially retconned ones. And I don't like Bruce learning from bad guys (his later training with Shiva and Tim's trainer really irk me), because it often leaves the issue of him either being willing to let them do bad while he learned, or doing nothing about them for the next several years after he learned of evil deeds (because they were retconned into history). But without speed-aging Damian, there aren't a lot of options. If you let Bruce be older (which I prefer), maybe Ra's and Talia could enter the scene when Dick is 14ish and Damian be conceived then.
    Btw. in the original comics Ras didn't appear untill Dick was in collage. Which means based on these comics Dick would need to be 19-20 years older than Damian.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by nhienphan2808 View Post
    He finds and rescues out-of-comission Babs and discovered Batman and Robin's identity and also come to them through knowing her, because obsession with Dick Grayson or rescuing Batman and Nightwing makes 0 sense even if they were grieving.
    Thats also a little bit tricky, since that would need to happen quite while before he becomes Robin. Since (if you don't ret con that) Barbara was not really active as Batgirl during Jasons time as Robin, and was crippled by the Joker before Jason died.

  10. #40
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakiduam View Post
    So Dick gets Tim's origen and Tim gets Carrie's?
    Nah, Dick just gets a totally new origin. Maybe a little of the John Blake character from TDKR sprinkled in there just minus being a cop.
    Follow your inner moonlight, do not hide the madness. -Ginsberg

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    Btw. in the original comics Ras didn't appear untill Dick was in collage. Which means based on these comics Dick would need to be 19-20 years older than Damian.
    Wasn't Damien artificially aged, though, or am I just making that up?
    His current approval rating is 34%, meaning 34% of Americans are still morons.

  12. #42
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    Honestly, I think all their origins are fine for the most part. The main problem seems to be wanting Bruce to have been a father figure to a 20 something Dick Grayson, but never wanting him to age beyond 35. You can't have it both ways, DC.
    His current approval rating is 34%, meaning 34% of Americans are still morons.

  13. #43
    Astonishing Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arsenal View Post
    Dickís origin largely remains untouched. Heís Robin for a few years but eventually decides itís time to become something else so he willingly retires the Robin persona and leaves to discover what that is.

    Babsís origin is largely the same. Her time as Batgirl covers both Dickís and Jasonís tenures as Robin but during Jasonís time she wasnít Batgirling as frequently as she used to. Joker shoots Babs and a month later kills Jason.

    Jasonís origin would remain the same during his first annual patrol in Crime Alley after Dick leaves. Only change Iíd make is some of his better pre-Crisis stories/appearances (the broad strokes atleast) are added into his time his time as Robin until his relationship with Bruce falls apart which ultimately leads to him dying at the hands of the Joker. Due to his upbringing, Jason would never talk about his past so he would never talk about the time he met Talia. Sheís been keeping tabs on him from afar ever since he helped her kill an Untitled so when she gets word that heís wandering the streets of Gotham in a catatonic state she decides to take him in.

    Tim Drake is a Batman & Robin fanboy whose been following them for years. He starts to train himself after hearing Joker killed Robin because Gotham needs a Robin. Either Bruce learns of this new ďRobinĒ or stumbles upon him during patrol. Either way, Bruce quickly attempts to shut Tim down but his attempts are futile upon discovering the boy largely lives on his own. So Tim keeps going out until him and Bruce end up in a situation where they are forced to work together to escape from which results in Bruce reluctantly deciding to properly train and equip Tim to avoid another child dying to this life.

    Cass & Stephís origins remain the same.

    Damianís origin remains the same. He was conceived shortly before Bruce makes his debut as Batman so his age (give or take a few months) reflects how long Bruce has been batmaning for. Only change Iíd make is that Damian never dies but instead is critically injured which leads to Bruce going temporarily off the rails in his attempts to save him.
    Only thing I would change about this; is that I would switch around Babs and Jason for when Joker targeted them. It adds more impact for when Jason returns and the anger he feels towards Joker and frustration at Bruce for not doing something permanently about the clown.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by phonogram12 View Post
    Wasn't Damien artificially aged, though, or am I just making that up?
    That was a retcon the made in the new52, but I'm not sure if that is still canon.

  15. #45
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    Btw. when it comes to Jason being killed by the Joker, I neither like the original Version where Joker is just lucky to get the drop on Jason nor the new 52 Version where Joker has manipulated everyting from the start, I think it would be nice to find some middleground between both.

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