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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    I loved all three of those stories but I think the simple fact that all three of those, and all of Johns old run iirc, are currently out of print means that they have been forgotten unfortunately.
    Ahh, I thought you were referring to their quality rather than popularity. Even so, while I will grant you Up, Up, and Away isn't very well circulated, Last Son and Brainiac are. Both are still available to purchase in one trade collection: https://www.amazon.com/Superman-Last...s%2C157&sr=8-1

    And Brainiac was adapted into a standalone animated movie. Plus, the DC App highlights both stories as major Superman stories on the comics section of their app. Both are very easy to find. So I wouldn't call either of them forgotten.
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  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Hush features a ton of elements that also rather date it, but it manages to still be a popular ďintroĒ Batman story (although I think Snyderís New 52 run has displaced it somewhat). It has President Lex Luthor, Harley Quinn as Jokerís GF, Tim Drake Robin, Talia on the outs with her father and not at all villainous, etc. I donít think a story has to necessarily be totally standalone to stand the test of time. I think a lot of Supermanís problems stem from the lack of outside media adapting his storylines. Up, Up, and Away or Ending Battle I think are quite easily adaptable as standalones, but the people in charge arenít interested in Superman at all so it never happens. Under the Red Hood the comic is frankly an awful storyline imo, but the movie did a fantastic job of cleaning out the crap and taking the interesting ideas that were always there. Thatís why I would still love to see a New Krypton adaption because I believe it has interesting ideas that just need proper execution.
    Well, one of the greatest pros of standalone stories is not only that they can serve as an introduction to the characters (the plot of Hush simply doesn't make sense, but it has pretty pictures and Batman's entire rogues gallery), but also that in a lot of cases they allow a writer and an artist to introduce a very unique and recognizable version of the character in a very compact way. I think that this is one the reasons DC is heading towards DC Zoom, Kids, Black Label or whatever they want to call them.

    Also: one of the many, many reasons of Batman's overwhelming success in comparison to Superman is that we have things like Dark Knight Returns, The Killing Joke, Arkham Asylum, The Long Halloween, and many, MANY others. That is, very recognizable, powerful stories, which are extremely well-written and drawn (you can't get more iconic than DKR) and can make an occasional reader understand how hugely diversified the potential of Batman can be. With Superman you are not so lucky - you get All-Star Superman (which is perfect, don't get me wrong, and you can read it 100 times in a row without getting tired - by the way, has anyone ever noticed how intriguing Frank Quitely's Metropolis is?), For All Seasons, and then.... The list is already pretty short and most of it consists of retellings of the origin and the Death of Superman story (with which I have several problems, too). I mean, you can include things like Last Son (which is basically a thinly masked adaptation of Superman II with elements from Superman Returns and Supergirl the movie) and Brainiac, but they are not nearly as powerful as some of the aforementioned minis or maxis.

    It's not just a matter of comic books, though. Standalone stories are the very first thing producers and directors use as a basis for movies or videogame adaptations (and IMHO they are the very first thing they check to see IF a character is worth an adaptation). And adaptations are incredibly important, not only in terms of money. Adaptations are what helps a character survive and renew itself. In adaptations, the director has to "trim the fat" - understand what about that character works and what doesn't in a context which is not the printed page - and, if the director is good, he/she can also add a lot of elements which become iconic. Tim Burton basically created the gothic Gotham City we all know and read about in today's Batman comics, for example. Basically, adaptation is one of the most powerful means to allow writers and editors to think about a character's narrative universe and make them understand how to make it work and click in all of its components. In Batman's universe, almost everything clicks: we have things like Arkham, the Batcave, GCPD, the Manor, with many characters which can become protagonists in their own stories. But also single elements (Batman's detective skills, Batman's mission, his psychology, the Robins) are very powerful and strong.

    Superman's world is not an equally well-oiled machine. We have a lot of fragmented components and almost every attempt at making them all work has resulted in a failure. One of the problems I have with Jon Kent is that IMHO there were many, MANY other things in Superman's universe they should have dealt with before introducing a character whom writers basically cannot avoid and whose presence affects every single Superman story. But Jon aside, the versions of Superman you can take inspiration from for an adaptation are embarassingly few. Something is wrong when - in New Krypton days - writers have to hark back to a 40-year-old movie to get inspiration for new stories and new movies (was there really a request for Marlon Brando Jor-El and Reeve Superman in the Superman comic series?). I mean, while they were at it they could have revamped the Fleischer cartoons, which are even older and they would have been infinitely more interesting (mechanical monsters and things like that). Yes, we had Zack Snyder's Man of Steel, but they used the wrong standalone story as a source of inspiration (Earth One) and better not talk about that.
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  3. #48
    Astonishing Member Doctor Know's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myskin View Post
    Well, one of the greatest pros of standalone stories is not only that they can serve as an introduction to the characters (the plot of Hush simply doesn't make sense, but it has pretty pictures and Batman's entire rogues gallery), but also that in a lot of cases they allow a writer and an artist to introduce a very unique and recognizable version of the character in a very compact way. I think that this is one the reasons DC is heading towards DC Zoom, Kids, Black Label or whatever they want to call them.

    Also: one of the many, many reasons of Batman's overwhelming success in comparison to Superman is that we have things like Dark Knight Returns, The Killing Joke, Arkham Asylum, The Long Halloween, and many, MANY others. That is, very recognizable, powerful stories, which are extremely well-written and drawn (you can't get more iconic than DKR) and can make an occasional reader understand how hugely diversified the potential of Batman can be. With Superman you are not so lucky - you get All-Star Superman (which is perfect, don't get me wrong, and you can read it 100 times in a row without getting tired - by the way, has anyone ever noticed how intriguing Frank Quitely's Metropolis is?), For All Seasons, and then.... The list is already pretty short and most of it consists of retellings of the origin and the Death of Superman story (with which I have several problems, too). I mean, you can include things like Last Son (which is basically a thinly masked adaptation of Superman II with elements from Superman Returns and Supergirl the movie) and Brainiac, but they are not nearly as powerful as some of the aforementioned minis or maxis.

    It's not just a matter of comic books, though. Standalone stories are the very first thing producers and directors use as a basis for movies or videogame adaptations (and IMHO they are the very first thing they check to see IF a character is worth an adaptation). And adaptations are incredibly important, not only in terms of money. Adaptations are what helps a character survive and renew itself. In adaptations, the director has to "trim the fat" - understand what about that character works and what doesn't in a context which is not the printed page - and, if the director is good, he/she can also add a lot of elements which become iconic. Tim Burton basically created the gothic Gotham City we all know and read about in today's Batman comics, for example. Basically, adaptation is one of the most powerful means to allow writers and editors to think about a character's narrative universe and make them understand how to make it work and click in all of its components. In Batman's universe, almost everything clicks: we have things like Arkham, the Batcave, GCPD, the Manor, with many characters which can become protagonists in their own stories. But also single elements (Batman's detective skills, Batman's mission, his psychology, the Robins) are very powerful and strong.

    Superman's world is not an equally well-oiled machine. We have a lot of fragmented components and almost every attempt at making them all work has resulted in a failure. One of the problems I have with Jon Kent is that IMHO there were many, MANY other things in Superman's universe they should have dealt with before introducing a character whom writers basically cannot avoid and whose presence affects every single Superman story. But Jon aside, the versions of Superman you can take inspiration from for an adaptation are embarassingly few. Something is wrong when - in New Krypton days - writers have to hark back to a 40-year-old movie to get inspiration for new stories and new movies (was there really a request for Marlon Brando Jor-El and Reeve Superman in the Superman comic series?). I mean, while they were at it they could have revamped the Fleischer cartoons, which are even older and they would have been infinitely more interesting (mechanical monsters and things like that). Yes, we had Zack Snyder's Man of Steel, but they used the wrong standalone story as a source of inspiration (Earth One) and better not talk about that.
    Another stellar post, Myskin. A lot of salient points.

    Supes really needs more accessible standalone stories. The likes Batman, Spider-Man and the X-Men are filled with. Easy jumping on points for new readers and readers in general. I frequently make the mocking statement that writers on Supes are primarily interested in only 4 stories. Superman Origins (a dime a dozen at this point), Superman Dies (Death of Supes numerous adaptations, Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow, Nuperman, All Star), Superman Evil (Red Son/other elseworlds, most stories against Darkseid, Injustice), Superman Donner (Johns late 2000 run, Returns, Supergirl TV, Matthew Vaughn's pitch for MOS 2).


    For accessible stories, I direct people to All Star (naturally), Byrne's run (for consistency and more day to day adventures), Superman/JLU/LOSH animated series, early New 52 stories, and event/JL titles (Kingdom Come, Cosmic Odyssey, Panic in the Sky, COIE).


    Supes has the mythos, character cast and brand strength to do more. I think TPTB are just focused on keeping a narrow vision of the character in place. Something safe and marketable. Should they need to hit the reset button on something they don't like. Look at how many disposable Supergirls and Superboys there have been.


    Also, Z. Snyder's inspiration for MOS was primarily from Birthright, with Krypton's look being from Byrne's revamp. Both of which I like and add personality to his world. With BvS. Snyder was of course inspired by TDKReturns, Death of Superman and Injustice.

  4. #49
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    I would disagree that everything in Batman’s world fits together. Red Hood for example completely breaks Batman’s world. Jason runs around killing people at his worst, and even at his best when he’s not killing people he is still using guns and wearing the Bat-Symbol. That really does not work with the portrayal of Batman as being absolutely anal about no guns and no killing.

    Joker as he is right now is an absolute hole of logic. He’s got a kill count in the thousands, he does not meet any definition of insanity, someone should have simply shot him by this point but then DC couldnt tell more Joker stories so it never happens. Batman’s world doesn’t fit together in a logical way, but it’s fun and entertaining so people don’t really care.

    Superman’s problems stem from the fact that ever since they put out Birthright they’ve been constantly trying to reinvent him, and every writer who comes onboard seems to be under the delusion that they will be the ones who will finally “make it work”. You can’t build on a character if you are constantly burning everything to the ground to start over. Now so far Bendis hasn’t really redone the origin and he is using things from Rebirth like Jor-El and Jon, so right now we haven’t gotten another scorched Earth approach. We’ll see how long that holds.

    And while I agree that standalone stories are important I think you’re missing my point. Under the Red Hood as it exists in the comics is NOT a standalone story. Jason Todd comes back because Superboy-Prime punches reality, which they completely reworked for the movie to make it less stupid by using a Lazarus Pit. A good adaption can take a story in the comics that is all tied up in continuity nonsense and get rid of those ties or rework them. For Up, Up, and Away for example, you just need to have Superman lose his powers for a while at the start, and there are a ton of ways to do that. You don’t need Lex to have been President, you can easily simply have the story start off with Supes finally exposing Lex’s Crimes and then having him get arrested. A good adaption cuts to the core features of the story.

    Also the movies aren’t really using standalone stories. Aquaman used Johns New 52 Aquaman run but put their own spin on it. WW 1984 is using Cheetah and if rumors are to be believed, Maxwell Lord. Cheetah does not really have any standalone stories with Diana, and WW as a whole does not have anywhere near as many standalone stories as Superman, yet she is experiencing greater success then he did. Diana is doing well not because of the comics but because Patty Jenkins understands and respects the character whereas Zack Snyder did not understand Superman at all and was frankly a terrible storyteller. I do not think we can blame DCEU Superman’s failure on comic book continuity problems, it is solely a failure of the man who was in charge and is now thankfully gone.

  5. #50
    Mighty Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    I would disagree that everything in Batman’s world fits together. Red Hood for example completely breaks Batman’s world. Jason runs around killing people at his worst, and even at his best when he’s not killing people he is still using guns and wearing the Bat-Symbol. That really does not work with the portrayal of Batman as being absolutely anal about no guns and no killing.
    Agree.

    Joker as he is right now is an absolute hole of logic. He’s got a kill count in the thousands, he does not meet any definition of insanity, someone should have simply shot him by this point but then DC couldnt tell more Joker stories so it never happens. Batman’s world doesn’t fit together in a logical way, but it’s fun and entertaining so people don’t really care.
    So much agreement on the first part. Joker's actions are so "big" now. I liked him better when he killed only a few people at at time. I feel like he's often just used for grossness and shock value now, and I don't even want to read anything with him because I'm just not into that flavor or scope of gruesome. I admit, I do kinda have a dream a Gotham cop just putting a bullet in him one day, because cop happens to be present when Joker is attacking someone. Jason won't do it, and I'm sick of the villain, and that would be a no-fuss, low-key way to get rid of him. Alas, it will never happen, because he's popular and iconic. And no one stays dead anyway.

    I do agree I'm tired of the Superman movie references. I liked the movie, though. But it using those visuals was really jarring in the New Krypton storyline.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 07-14-2019 at 10:26 AM.

  6. #51
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    Maybe someone can help me with this. I just started the 3rd New Krypton trade and Superman and Alura are referring to a conversation they had previously about Zod being part of New Krypton, which I have no memory of. In fact, the 2nd trade ended with the Zod reveal, which Superman wasn't present for, so he shouldn't even know about Zod. I feel like I missed a tie-in issue that didn't make the trade. Is that the case?
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  7. #52
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    Maybe someone can help me with this. I just started the 3rd New Krypton trade and Superman and Alura are referring to a conversation they had previously about Zod being part of New Krypton, which I have no memory of. In fact, the 2nd trade ended with the Zod reveal, which Superman wasn't present for, so he shouldn't even know about Zod. I feel like I missed a tie-in issue that didn't make the trade. Is that the case?
    Yes I believe that conversation happened in Mon-El vol. 1. I was totally confused too and unfortunately the library had all the New Krypton trades except for the Mon-El ones so I was SOL. Beyond that one reference though it doesn’t come up again.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    I would disagree that everything in Batman’s world fits together. Red Hood for example completely breaks Batman’s world. Jason runs around killing people at his worst, and even at his best when he’s not killing people he is still using guns and wearing the Bat-Symbol. That really does not work with the portrayal of Batman as being absolutely anal about no guns and no killing.

    Joker as he is right now is an absolute hole of logic. He’s got a kill count in the thousands, he does not meet any definition of insanity, someone should have simply shot him by this point but then DC couldnt tell more Joker stories so it never happens. Batman’s world doesn’t fit together in a logical way, but it’s fun and entertaining so people don’t really care.
    The fact that Batman's world clicks together doesn't mean that it is realistic or that there aren't some occasional flaws. There have been so many talented writers in the past that have reconstructed and rebuilt the character that now even contradictions are part of his charm. In the 1980s there have been several stories about Batman being as crazy as his enemies, so it doesn't sound so weird that his crusade often appears purely egotistical or obsession-driven rather than heroical, or that sometimes Batman can also be biased or flawed. The same could be said for the Joker. There have been stories about the Joker being a creature who constantly reinvents himself, stories about Batman literally needing the Joker to have a reason to live, and soon we will also have a three Jokers story. It has been an extremely long work which started in the 1970s, lots of writers kept on dealing with this Bat-machine but now it works extremely well, and the proof is that a lot of inner contradictions about the character aren't ignored, but have literally become the basis of many stories.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Superman’s problems stem from the fact that ever since they put out Birthright they’ve been constantly trying to reinvent him, and every writer who comes onboard seems to be under the delusion that they will be the ones who will finally “make it work”. You can’t build on a character if you are constantly burning everything to the ground to start over.
    Well, I think that I agree... Mostly. However, it is true that the character needs some tinkering or we wouldn't have had so many attempts at reinventing him (and I could talk about Superman's narrative problems for days, and in fact that's what I did in one of the previous incarnation of CBR forum). But yes, they should stick with one direction and build upon it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    And while I agree that standalone stories are important I think you’re missing my point. Under the Red Hood as it exists in the comics is NOT a standalone story.
    Yes, but the Superboy prime thing is so stupid that nobody remembers it, not even Didio I guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    A good adaption can take a story in the comics that is all tied up in continuity nonsense and get rid of those ties or rework them. For Up, Up, and Away for example, you just need to have Superman lose his powers for a while at the start, and there are a ton of ways to do that. You don’t need Lex to have been President, you can easily simply have the story start off with Supes finally exposing Lex’s Crimes and then having him get arrested. A good adaption cuts to the core features of the story.
    Well, the problem is that you can't have a movie whose foundations are so strongly rooted in a pre-existing knowledge of the background of the character if you don't have a pre-established, usable version of Superman... And we haven't had one since 1978 (if you count Reeve, which I don't particularly like to be fair).
    But hey, we are living in a world where they have created a Pennyworth TV series, so you never know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Also the movies aren’t really using standalone stories. Aquaman used Johns New 52 Aquaman run but put their own spin on it. WW 1984 is using Cheetah and if rumors are to be believed, Maxwell Lord. Cheetah does not really have any standalone stories with Diana, and WW as a whole does not have anywhere near as many standalone stories as Superman, yet she is experiencing greater success then he did. Diana is doing well not because of the comics but because Patty Jenkins understands and respects the character whereas Zack Snyder did not understand Superman at all and was frankly a terrible storyteller. I do not think we can blame DCEU Superman’s failure on comic book continuity problems, it is solely a failure of the man who was in charge and is now thankfully gone.
    Well, I'd say that both Wonder Woman and Aquaman were somehow in advantage in comparison to Superman because they were basically a blank slate; also, they had some specific traits that allowed them to live in relatively independent universes. Aquaman, for example, has much more to do with classic fantasy movies like Conan the Barbarian rather than Batman or Superman. It's basically a classic hero's journey where the outcast becomes the king - a classic trope. Superman is in a way more fragile position especially because you have to deal with a lot of pre-existing, extremely dated versions of the character and the whole 'champion of oppressed', 'symbol of hope', 'mild mannered reporter' thing is very delicate and incredibly difficult to be adapted in a convincing way. To put it short, Superman needs way more work than Aquaman or even Wonder Woman (even I'm not particularly fond of their movies, either).
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  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Know View Post
    Another stellar post, Myskin. A lot of salient points.
    Thanks. If you want an updated "history of what went wrong with New Krypton", just check the previous page.


    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Know View Post
    Also, Z. Snyder's inspiration for MOS was primarily from Birthright, with Krypton's look being from Byrne's revamp.
    I'd say that it was mostly Earth One with a pinch of Byrne. I don't see many details from Birthright in MOS (except for one single flight scene). But hey, if it's true, Snyder completely missed the best part of the story, that is Clark Kent in Africa.
    Educational town, Rolemodel city and Moralofthestory land are the places where good comics go to die.

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  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Yes I believe that conversation happened in Mon-El vol. 1. I was totally confused too and unfortunately the library had all the New Krypton trades except for the Mon-El ones so I was SOL. Beyond that one reference though it doesn’t come up again.
    Ehh, that's a pain. Because it probably also informs Superman's headspace here. The more I read, the more glaring it becomes. He shows up at the beginning of vol. 3 ready to start a new life on New Krypton, but Lois hasn't been mentioned once, and you have to wonder what the hell his wife is thinking about this decision he made and how the hell he sold her on it. It just seems like something was seriously missing.
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  11. #56
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myskin View Post
    The fact that Batman's world clicks together doesn't mean that it is realistic or that there aren't some occasional flaws. There have been so many talented writers in the past that have reconstructed and rebuilt the character that now even contradictions are part of his charm. In the 1980s there have been several stories about Batman being as crazy as his enemies, so it doesn't sound so weird that his crusade often appears purely egotistical or obsession-driven rather than heroical, or that sometimes Batman can also be biased or flawed. The same could be said for the Joker. There have been stories about the Joker being a creature who constantly reinvents himself, stories about Batman literally needing the Joker to have a reason to live, and soon we will also have a three Jokers story. It has been an extremely long work which started in the 1970s, lots of writers kept on dealing with this Bat-machine but now it works extremely well, and the proof is that a lot of inner contradictions about the character aren't ignored, but have literally become the basis of many stories.



    Well, I think that I agree... Mostly. However, it is true that the character needs some tinkering or we wouldn't have had so many attempts at reinventing him (and I could talk about Superman's narrative problems for days, and in fact that's what I did in one of the previous incarnation of CBR forum). But yes, they should stick with one direction and build upon it.


    Yes, but the Superboy prime thing is so stupid that nobody remembers it, not even Didio I guess.


    Well, the problem is that you can't have a movie whose foundations are so strongly rooted in a pre-existing knowledge of the background of the character if you don't have a pre-established, usable version of Superman... And we haven't had one since 1978 (if you count Reeve, which I don't particularly like to be fair).
    But hey, we are living in a world where they have created a Pennyworth TV series, so you never know.


    Well, I'd say that both Wonder Woman and Aquaman were somehow in advantage in comparison to Superman because they were basically a blank slate; also, they had some specific traits that allowed them to live in relatively independent universes. Aquaman, for example, has much more to do with classic fantasy movies like Conan the Barbarian rather than Batman or Superman. It's basically a classic hero's journey where the outcast becomes the king - a classic trope. Superman is in a way more fragile position especially because you have to deal with a lot of pre-existing, extremely dated versions of the character and the whole 'champion of oppressed', 'symbol of hope', 'mild mannered reporter' thing is very delicate and incredibly difficult to be adapted in a convincing way. To put it short, Superman needs way more work than Aquaman or even Wonder Woman (even I'm not particularly fond of their movies, either).
    Being a blank slate helps WW and Aquaman, I would agree with that. But frankly in the lead up to MoS people were excited at the prospect of Supes being reinvented just like Batman was. The problem is that Snyder is nowhere near as competent as he thinks he is, and a lot of the storytelling choices were simply bad ones. That’s not really something I think can be blamed on the comics.

    And Aquaman wasn’t that much of a blank slate. People constantly made jokes about how lame he was, just like how people complain about Superman being boring and overpowered. But Wan is a good storyteller where Snyder is not, and Wan was able to take from the best Aquaman stories where Snyder chose to take from the worst. I don’t really buy there being some greater inherent storytelling problems with Supes when WW and Aquaman have both also had multiple reboots. The current Arthur is completely different from 90s “Orin” for example.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    Ehh, that's a pain. Because it probably also informs Superman's headspace here. The more I read, the more glaring it becomes. He shows up at the beginning of vol. 3 ready to start a new life on New Krypton, but Lois hasn't been mentioned once, and you have to wonder what the hell his wife is thinking about this decision he made and how the hell he sold her on it. It just seems like something was seriously missing.
    They definitely should’ve included that conversation in the vol. 3 as an intro, I agree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Being a blank slate helps WW and Aquaman, I would agree with that. But frankly in the lead up to MoS people were excited at the prospect of Supes being reinvented just like Batman was. The problem is that Snyder is nowhere near as competent as he thinks he is, and a lot of the storytelling choices were simply bad ones. That’s not really something I think can be blamed on the comics.
    Well, I was one of those who were hopeful, to be fair. Yes, Snyder has his demerits, but probably they also chose the wrong source material (Earth One). Or maybe it was Goyer's fault. Or maybe they simply tried too hard to make it similar to The Dark Knight. If they had let Snyder go free with his ridiculously over-the-top approach (ŗ la Sucker Punch) maybe the movie would have been sillier, but also more entertaining.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    And Aquaman wasn’t that much of a blank slate. People constantly made jokes about how lame he was, just like how people complain about Superman being boring and overpowered.
    They made jokes, but it was mostly because they had the SuperFriends version in mind. Relatively few people knew about the Peter David version which served as the basis for the movie. However, it's a relatively simple take because there are few, but interesting standalone stories (including the old Time and Tide TP and the first issues of the Aquaman series) which could serve as a reference for an Aquaman movie.
    But again, it's a relatively simple take once you contextualize the character in a classic hero's journey. There have been dozens of examples (in movies or elsewhere) of fantasy movies which are pretty close to what the final Aquaman movie was. Basically Aquaman has his own personal aim and everything revolves around his destiny and his birthright within his kingdom. It's a story which has been told before. Superman is in an infinitely more slippery position. There is no real manifest destiny in his story - he is saved thanks to Jor-El, but all the other details - why he should become Superman, how he should do his "job", the limits of his mission, his relationship with human beings and the people around him, the villains, EVERYTHING basically - needs to make sense and should be recontextualized. In comic books AND movies. And this takes a lot, and I mean A LOT of work.
    Last edited by Myskin; 07-14-2019 at 02:51 PM.
    Educational town, Rolemodel city and Moralofthestory land are the places where good comics go to die.

    DC writers and editors looked up and shouted "Save us!"
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  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    They definitely should’ve included that conversation in the vol. 3 as an intro, I agree.
    Yeah, I found the three issues with the missing events on DC Universe. It definitely helped put things into context as far as Clark's motivation goes, which helps me understand what the hell he is thinking in the World of New Krypton issues. It was definitely a mistake not to include them.
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  14. #59
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    Yeah, I found the three issues with the missing events on DC Universe. It definitely helped put things into context as far as Clark's motivation goes, which helps me understand what the hell he is thinking in the World of New Krypton issues. It was definitely a mistake not to include them.
    Which issues were those if you can recall?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Which issues were those if you can recall?
    Superman 684, followed by Action Comics 874, then back to Superman 685.

    As you said, I think it was all collected in the first Mon-El trade, but I found the single issues on the DC Universe app. Frankly, though it sets up the Mon-El status quo, it would have made way more sense for them to be in the New Krypton collection.
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