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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myskin View Post
    They made jokes, but it was mostly because they had the SuperFriends version in mind. Relatively few people knew about the Peter David version which served as the basis for the movie. However, it's a relatively simple take because there are few, but interesting standalone stories (including the old Time and Tide TP and the first issues of the Aquaman series) which could serve as a reference for an Aquaman movie.
    I guess if you look at Momoa he's kind of like PAD's Aquaman without all the trauma and history if he was thrust into the Johns run .

  2. #62
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    I've some, completely unrequested, food for thoughts which I wasn't able to include in some of my previous posts, so I'll post it here.
    I agree that at this point the origin story has been told so many times that it has become pretty thin and it would be risky to do this entire thing all over again - yes, we have Year One right now (and I like it so far), but that's not in continuity, apparently. However, I admit that all the Superman origin stories told in the latest years (including Snyder's MOS) had ALL an important roles in redefining the character's mission and the writers were all relatively coherent in developing plots from that starting point.
    For example, some chapters of Birthright were strongly focused on the "strange visitor who doesn't fit in" (it was a thing in those days) and we had stories like Godfall, For Tomorrow and Lex Luthor: Man of Steel (and the so-called, basically aborted SUPERSTORM project) which are strongly rooted in this specific idea.

    The "strange visitor" thing was part of Johns' Secret Origin as well, but that specific story came out at the end of the Johns/Busiek era; the very first, defining story of the new Johns/Busiek continuity was Last Son (yes, we had also had Up, up and away, but there are no clear references to a new origin there and that specific story could have belonged to the Birthright continuity as well). Well, in Last Son we have Superman divided between his human identity and his Kryptonian heritage... And the climax of it all is New Krypton.

    Again. One key moment shared by Earth One and Snyder's MOS both is what I call the "Jesus in the Gethsemane" moment. At one point, Clark doesn't know whether he should stay in the shadow or reveal himself to the world, until a villain comes up and forces him to become a hero. That's the reason of controversial moments like Pa Kent's demise. I am not saying that it is a particularly good or well-developed take on the character (IMHO it isn't, mostly because both Earth One and MOS are mediocre works as far as I am concerned). My point is, what the authors want to achieve is relatively clear even if they are not particularly successful at developing those specific plots.

    So...The point is, the origin story IS important and I think that DC writers haven't been entirely unreasonable in their attempts at focusing on it so many times. However, at the present moment they have put themselves into a corner: the basic concepts ("Doomed Planet. Desperate Scientists. Last Hope. Kindly Couple") are ALWAYS the same (only Morrison tried a slightly different approach with the rocket's POV) and the most interesting parts (Clark in Africa, Clark and the Legion etc.) never find enough space to "breathe".

    On the other hand, I think the redefinition of the mission is one of the things Superman desperately needs these days both in comic books AND movies. IMHO the DC characters who are at their weakest - and they have been for years - are Superman (in movies and comics) and Wonder Woman (the comic book; the movie was successful, but I'd say that it has several problems as well). Maybe WW is in a slightly healthier position thanks to few, relatively isolated runs like Rucka's (and Azzarello's, as far as I am concerned), but everything fell apart as soon as those specific writers left the title. The problem with these two specific characters is that they have become - for lack of better words - vague. With other heroes, everything is simpler. The Flash and GL are both cops/soldiers - their mission is being law enforcers (in different but well-defined contexts and with possible different outcomes, of course). Aquaman has his own personal hero's journey and Batman, well, we all know about that. But for Superman and Wonder Woman nothing is that clear, mostly because they have to create their own mission for themselves, "along the way" (yes, Wonder Woman has her own Amazon creed, but it is not that comprehensible or relatable, quite frankly). Of course, Superman inspires people and fights villains selflessly, but that's something ALL heroes do; and I'd say that Batman has so many disciples that you could consider him way more successful at inspiring people. All the different origins we had so far were all desperate attempts at spicing Superman's mission up by updating it. It's also a problem of readers' expectations. Both Superman and WW have become symbols in their own account and now a lot of readers expect them to behave like saints rather than characters. Basically, it's as if they are not supposed to have real human flaws.

    Superman in particular is almost paralyzed. We have had a ton of "inspirational" speech moments in the latest decades, but I have been thinking for years that the "inspiration" part is just another desperate way to force the character into becoming an example rather than letting him act or DO heroical things. In general, I'd say that Superman is way more interesting when he DOES something rather than when he SPEAKS (something that Morrison had understood very well in All-Star). I think that most motivational speeches in Superman are dull and simplistic (and yes, I include Pa Kent's speeches among them), but when Superman DOES something heroical in a non-generic, non-vague way (I am thinking about the "human chain" moment in Yang's and Pak's The Truth) he can be pretty awesome.
    Last edited by Myskin; 07-15-2019 at 04:51 AM.
    Educational town, Rolemodel city and Moralofthestory land are the places where good comics go to die.

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  3. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myskin View Post
    However, there were problems from the very first moment. Last Son had HUGE delays, mostly due to Adam Kubert (I think), for never revealed reasons. The continuity, especially for some specific characters (Luthor and Superman himself) was a mess. The Supergirl series was a complete, utter and unbelievable chaos (it had been from the inception, to be fair; way before Johns and Busiek started their run) until Gates came on board. There were several fill-in stories. I think that it was at this point that DC did their best to erase Superboy/Conner from their books for copyright issues after killing him in Infinite Crisis (never officially confirmed as far as I remember, but that's what everybody thinks/suspects). At one point, Busiek left the title (the official reason was that he had to write the Trinity weekly series) and was replaced by James Robinson. Johns stayed on board until New Krypton started and was replaced by Rucka (apparently the original choice was Mark Waid though, and he refused). Plans for New Krypton changed (it would have involved Wells in some capacity, but she disappeared from the series). There were some plans for stories which were never published; I think that at one point Johns was planning a Mxyzptlk issue and a Doomsday one, but it never came to fruition; Busiek once confirmed on his site (it was an answer to a mail of mine and it was published in the Astro City mail column, but unfortunately I can't find it anymore, sorry) that there had been some discussions/vague ideas about a "Toyman war" which would have involved Schott, Nimball and the mechanical Toyman introduced in Up, up and away.

    However... Even if Robinson's and Rucka's run had already been partially compromised (and Robinson's writing was weaker than it used to be), I have to give them credit that they really did their best to preserve a lot of the original ideas and they tried to give a very unique, distinctive atmosphere to the Super-universe. I don't think that Johns left the title for editorial reasons - it is more likely that at that point he was simply more interested in his Green Lantern series (which was becoming hugely popular) and possibly in the DC Cinematic Universe; as far as I remember, James Robinson and Johns were close friends and Robinson kept a lot of Johns' original plan intact. In general, I'd say that Johns' shadow looms large on the entire New Krypton saga (even if some ideas were clearly Rucka's or Robinson's) whereas most of Busiek's concepts are simply forgotten after his departure (except for some rare reference, like Squad K).
    Just a couple of corrections to this...

    Mark Waid almost replaced James Robinson, not Busiek or Johns. This was relatively early in Robinson's tenure with Superman, and apparently had something to do with some argument he and Didio had that almost caused him to quit the book. Apparently Didio had Waid on stand-by to take over before (I believe) Johns intervened and was able to mediate the issue, keeping Robinson on the title through the conclusion of New Krypton. I never heard that Waid refused (although it's certainly possible), just that he was the first and only known choice to take over if Robinson had actually stepped down.

    And while it's possible Robinson kept most of Johns' ideas for New Krypton in tact, Busiek has stated that the story deviated (implied to be substantially) from what he and Johns had discussed/mapped out. So maybe Johns had major differences in how he wanted New Krypton to go versus Busiek?

    I know there was a reason Johns left Action right at the beginning of New Krypton. I want to say he had some other project he was working on but I just don't remember. Rucka took over because he was told he would get Wonder Woman: Earth One, which DC ultimately gave to Grant Morrison, causing a rift between Rucka and DC for a period of time.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingaliencracker View Post
    Mark Waid almost replaced James Robinson, not Busiek or Johns. This was relatively early in Robinson's tenure with Superman, and apparently had something to do with some argument he and Didio had that almost caused him to quit the book. Apparently Didio had Waid on stand-by to take over before (I believe) Johns intervened and was able to mediate the issue, keeping Robinson on the title through the conclusion of New Krypton. I never heard that Waid refused (although it's certainly possible), just that he was the first and only known choice to take over if Robinson had actually stepped down.
    The Waid thing is something I read about on Bleeding Cool (or Lying in the Gutters, if I remember it well; maybe it was the pre-BC era). As I said, memories are foggy (it was 10 years ago!), but as far as I remember the main reason for Waid to step down was that he should write Nightwing/Flamebird rather than Superman. Also: World of New Krypton's writer was supposed to be Andrew Kreisberg before Robinson and Rucka took over.

    The Robinson/Didio argument thing is familiar, too. In my mind I always linked the incident to James Robinson's relationship with J G Jones's wife Jann Jones, who at that time was one of Didio's collaborators and later became Robinson's wife. Of course there is zero proof to this, it is just a speculation of mine (I personally suspected that this specific incident was one the reasons JG Jones stopped drawing Final Crisis).

    Quote Originally Posted by kingaliencracker View Post
    And while it's possible Robinson kept most of Johns' ideas for New Krypton in tact, Busiek has stated that the story deviated (implied to be substantially) from what he and Johns had discussed/mapped out. So maybe Johns had major differences in how he wanted New Krypton to go versus Busiek?
    Well, we'll never know for sure. The preview for New Krypton which appeared in Action Comics 850 was very similar to the story which we had, except for the look of the Kryptonians and the presence of Kristin Wells.
    However, many things were in flux for Johns, too. At the end of Last Son, Zod mentions "another horror" of the Phantom Zone, but this specific subplot was never mentioned again in later stories (the Aethyr, maybe?). Another thing which changed was Kandor - it was strongly implied in Last Son and some of the later stories that Kandor was not a city, but rather Krypton's lunar colony; when Jax-Ur (the first Phantom Zone prisoner) destroyed Krypton's moon, everybody thought that Kandor was lost, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by kingaliencracker View Post
    Rucka took over because he was told he would get Wonder Woman: Earth One, which DC ultimately gave to Grant Morrison, causing a rift between Rucka and DC for a period of time.
    100% correct.
    Last edited by Myskin; 07-15-2019 at 07:26 AM.
    Educational town, Rolemodel city and Moralofthestory land are the places where good comics go to die.

    DC writers and editors looked up and shouted "Save us!"
    And Alan Moore looked down and whispered "No."

  5. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myskin View Post
    The Waid thing is something I read about on Bleeding Cool (or Lying in the Gutters, if I remember it well; maybe it was the pre-BC era). As I said, memories are foggy (it was 10 years ago!), but as far as I remember the main reason for Waid to step down was that he should write Nightwing/Flamebird rather than Superman. Also: World of New Krypton's writer was supposed to be Andrew Kreisberg before Robinson and Rucka took over.

    The Robinson/Didio argument thing is familiar, too. In my mind I always linked the incident to James Robinson's relationship with J G Jones's wife Jann Jones, who at that time was one of Didio's collaborators and later became Robinson's wife. Of course there is zero proof to this, it is just a speculation of mine (I personally suspected that this specific incident was one the reasons JG Jones stopped drawing Final Crisis).
    Maybe they're two separate situations in which Waid almost took over the Superman titles? I remember definitively that he almost took over for a disgruntled James Robinson shortly after Robinson had taken over for Busiek. It's very likely that after this, and when New Krypton was really about to take off, Waid was in talks to replace Johns when the latter was stepping down.


    Well, we'll never know for sure. The preview for New Krypton which appeared in Action Comics 850 was very similar to the story which we had, except for the look of the Kryptonians and the presence of Kristin Wells.
    However, many things were in flux for Johns, too. At the end of Last Son, Zod mentions "another horror" of the Phantom Zone, but this specific subplot was never mentioned again in later stories (the Aethyr, maybe?). Another thing which changed was Kandor - it was strongly implied in Last Son and some of the later stories that Kandor was not a city, but rather Krypton's lunar colony; when Jax-Ur (the first Phantom Zone prisoner) destroyed Krypton's moon, everybody thought that Kandor was lost, too.
    Well we know for sure that, per Busiek, the story drifted from what he thought it was going to be. That's according to him. As I said, it's possible that once Busiek left Johns decided to go in a different direction than what Busiek and he worked on.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingaliencracker View Post
    Maybe they're two separate situations in which Waid almost took over the Superman titles?
    Yes, that what was thinking about. I guess that at one point Waid may have been a replacement choice for both titles. Again, it was a long time ago, but I remember that I was quite surprised when I read the gossip because I had liked Birthright and I was quite surprised that Waid had never got a chance to write the Superman titles (and I think that Waid was disgruntled too). At one point there were rumors about some kind of Waid embargo (for reasons I don't know he was basically forbidden from writing Superman or something like that) and I was quite surprised when I read that they ad approached him for what was basically a long fill-in.
    Educational town, Rolemodel city and Moralofthestory land are the places where good comics go to die.

    DC writers and editors looked up and shouted "Save us!"
    And Alan Moore looked down and whispered "No."

  7. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myskin View Post
    Yes, that what was thinking about. I guess that at one point Waid may have been a replacement choice for both titles. Again, it was a long time ago, but I remember that I was quite surprised when I read the gossip because I had liked Birthright and I was quite surprised that Waid had never got a chance to write the Superman titles (and I think that Waid was disgruntled too). At one point there were rumors about some kind of Waid embargo (for reasons I don't know he was basically forbidden from writing Superman or something like that) and I was quite surprised when I read that they ad approached him for what was basically a long fill-in.
    Waid was blacklisted from writing the mainstream Superman for a period of time due to the Superman 2000 pitch that he and the others presented when some editor was out-of-town and it gave the appearance they were going over that editor's head with the pitch.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingaliencracker View Post
    Waid was blacklisted from writing the mainstream Superman for a period of time due to the Superman 2000 pitch that he and the others presented when some editor was out-of-town and it gave the appearance they were going over that editor's head with the pitch.
    Yes, but Birthright was written in 2003-2004, years after the incident. So the Superman 2000 thing can't be the real reason - again, I always thought that it mainly depended on some personal argument between Didio and Waid (and since Waid can be pretty inflammable, it didn't surprise me).
    Educational town, Rolemodel city and Moralofthestory land are the places where good comics go to die.

    DC writers and editors looked up and shouted "Save us!"
    And Alan Moore looked down and whispered "No."

  9. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myskin View Post
    Yes, but Birthright was written in 2003-2004, years after the incident. So the Superman 2000 thing can't be the real reason - again, I always thought that it mainly depended on some personal argument between Didio and Waid (and since Waid can be pretty inflammable, it didn't surprise me).
    Well Birthright wasn't necessarily supposed to be canon, at least not initially. Plus it came out in 2003/2004 when Didio had taken over and the old Superman guard had departed.

    Waid and Didio had a solid relationship, at least initially. It wasn't until "52" came out that their relationship soured and Waid left DC.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingaliencracker View Post
    Waid was blacklisted from writing the mainstream Superman for a period of time due to the Superman 2000 pitch that he and the others presented when some editor was out-of-town and it gave the appearance they were going over that editor's head with the pitch.
    It probably wasn't the editor (Berganza was onboard and behind them from all accounts ). From what we know from Oral History of Wildstorm and how triggerhappy he was in exercising the editorial veto during this period that it was probably Paul Levitz himself. Which would certainly explain why Millar had such a hatred for the man after he went over to Marvel.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingaliencracker View Post
    Well Birthright wasn't necessarily supposed to be canon, at least not initially. Plus it came out in 2003/2004 when Didio had taken over and the old Superman guard had departed.
    .
    Yep, that's my point - the "Waid being forbidden from writing Superman" incident I mentioned before happened after Birthright, not before it. Sorry for not being clearer.
    As for the canonicity of Birthright, well, that's another problem. Over the years I have heard all kinds of stories about it - that it was supposed to be a "Ultimate Superman" thing or a possible pitch for a Superman movie. The original plot for Birthright (with Brainiac as one of the main villains) diverged even more from Byrne continuity, so there may be some truth behind it.

    I think that at least at one point in earlier stages it was supposed to be canon (I remember reading an interview where Waid was asked if after Birthright he was supposed to write Superman and he half-jokingly answered: "Well, I better be!" or something like that). At one point there was a short story, "Young Luthor in Smallville", in Superman/Batman Secret Files (2003), written by Waid, which is clearly in continuity with Birthright (it also partially retcons some plot points of Birthright!); but at that point it was already clear that Birthright had become canon (Birthright Jor-El and Lara appear on the first page of Superman/Batman 1).

    My personal guess is that they simply hadn't a precise plan in mind and they made things up along the way. The years which followed were probably the most chaotic period in DC's history as far as I know (I remember this utterly bizarre mini by Giffen, Ambush Bug Year None, full of incomprehensible and almost sinister in-jokes about the state of DC in 2008-2009).
    Educational town, Rolemodel city and Moralofthestory land are the places where good comics go to die.

    DC writers and editors looked up and shouted "Save us!"
    And Alan Moore looked down and whispered "No."

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Wayne View Post
    It probably wasn't the editor (Berganza was onboard and behind them from all accounts ). From what we know from Oral History of Wildstorm and how triggerhappy he was in exercising the editorial veto during this period that it was probably Paul Levitz himself. Which would certainly explain why Millar had such a hatred for the man after he went over to Marvel.
    Neither. The editor who prevented Superman 2000 from becoming a reality was Mike Carlin.
    https://sites.google.com/a/deepspace...storynevertold
    Educational town, Rolemodel city and Moralofthestory land are the places where good comics go to die.

    DC writers and editors looked up and shouted "Save us!"
    And Alan Moore looked down and whispered "No."

  13. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Wayne View Post
    It probably wasn't the editor (Berganza was onboard and behind them from all accounts ). From what we know from Oral History of Wildstorm and how triggerhappy he was in exercising the editorial veto during this period that it was probably Paul Levitz himself. Which would certainly explain why Millar had such a hatred for the man after he went over to Marvel.
    Actually the editor at the time was Mike Carlin.

    If I remember right, the team went straight to Jenette Kahn, bypassing Carlin and Levitz when Carlin was out of town on vacation or something. Kahn initially approved it, until Carlin came back and complained to Levitz, who wound up getting it squashed.

  14. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myskin View Post
    Neither. The editor who prevented Superman 2000 from becoming a reality was Mike Carlin.
    https://sites.google.com/a/deepspace...storynevertold
    Ha! Beat me to it!

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myskin View Post
    Neither. The editor who prevented Superman 2000 from becoming a reality was Mike Carlin.
    https://sites.google.com/a/deepspace...storynevertold
    No.

    https://***********/@bobproehl/men-of...l-9044a49ba521

    Carlin has been people's favorite candidate. But other creators I believe has said he wasn't the one who canned it.

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