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  1. #76
    Incredible Member kingaliencracker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myskin View Post
    Yep, that's my point - the "Waid being forbidden from writing Superman" incident I mentioned before happened after Birthright, not before it. Sorry for not being clearer.
    As for the canonicity of Birthright, well, that's another problem. Over the years I have heard all kinds of stories about it - that it was supposed to be a "Ultimate Superman" thing or a possible pitch for a Superman movie. The original plot for Birthright (with Brainiac as one of the main villains) diverged even more from Byrne continuity, so there may be some truth behind it.

    I think that at least at one point in earlier stages it was supposed to be canon (I remember reading an interview where Waid was asked if after Birthright he was supposed to write Superman and he half-jokingly answered: "Well, I better be!" or something like that). At one point there was a short story, "Young Luthor in Smallville", in Superman/Batman Secret Files (2003), written by Waid, which is clearly in continuity with Birthright (it also partially retcons some plot points of Birthright!); but at that point it was already clear that Birthright had become canon (Birthright Jor-El and Lara appear on the first page of Superman/Batman 1).

    My personal guess is that they simply hadn't a precise plan in mind and they made things up along the way. The years which followed were probably the most chaotic period in DC's history as far as I know (I remember this utterly bizarre mini by Giffen, Ambush Bug Year None, full of incomprehensible and almost sinister in-jokes about the state of DC in 2008-2009).
    Well, there were clear indications in the first couple of chapters that Birthright was supposed to be set in the present day, or at least more present day than Man of Steel was. It also clearly and blatantly contradicted post-Crisis continuity, and not in the fanboy quibbling sort of way either. We're taking major contradictions.

    The references to Birthright started popping up at the behest of Eddie Berganza. For example, Jim Lee told of a story of how, when he drew "For Tomorrow" he initially used the Byrne models for the Kryptonians but was directed by Berganza to use the Birthright models instead.

    My feeling is that it was supposed to be an Ultimate/All Star-type story that simply got shoehorned into canon by Berganza. That seems in line with how poorly the story was executed into canon, as well as how quickly it was jettisoned following Infinite Crisis.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Wayne View Post
    No.

    https://medium.com/@bobproehl/men-of...l-9044a49ba521

    Carlin has been people's favorite candidate. But other creators I believe has said he wasn't the one who canned it.
    Heh, who knows. They are just rumors. At this point it is entirely possible that BOTH Levitz and Carlin nixed the idea for different reasons; the vacation rumor concerns Carlin, that's for sure, though, and I still think that the majority of the sources points at him. But again, who knows.
    Educational town, Rolemodel city and Moralofthestory land are the places where good comics go to die.

    DC writers and editors looked up and shouted "Save us!"
    And Alan Moore looked down and whispered "No."

  3. #78
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    Aaand after a long search I found my old mail to Kurt Busiek with some behind-the-scenes of New Krypton... Including the Toyman war thing and a plan for a Lex Luthor story. Enjoy!
    https://busiek.com/site/2009/12/04/t...e-mail-slot-5/
    Educational town, Rolemodel city and Moralofthestory land are the places where good comics go to die.

    DC writers and editors looked up and shouted "Save us!"
    And Alan Moore looked down and whispered "No."

  4. #79
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    we’d talked about doing a “Toy War,” as all three extant Toymen fought it out for the title, with Metropolis as the deadly playing field, but hadn’t gotten around to working out details before I headed off to Trinity-land.
    Yeah I’m crushed we didn’t get this. Wish Busiek would do his Toyman and Brainiac stories as Black Label books since I don’t expect we’ll ever get them any other way. Oh well.

  5. #80
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    I've also found the post in which I asked Rucka about Mxyzptlk in New Krypton:
    https://www.comicbloc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70905
    No reference to a major crossover in Blackest Night style, though. But it was up in the air in those days and there are some mentions about it on comicbloc forum in 2008-2009.
    Now that I think about it, maybe the first real mention of a large-scale intergalactic war was in Bleeding Cool/Lying in the Gutters, but good luck with finding that specific rumor.
    Educational town, Rolemodel city and Moralofthestory land are the places where good comics go to die.

    DC writers and editors looked up and shouted "Save us!"
    And Alan Moore looked down and whispered "No."

  6. #81
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    Welp. I just finished War of Supermen. That ending was...wow...not good. Definitely see what people mean about the reset button. All that work for such an unsatisfying conclusion. The most annoying part though had to be Zod. World of New Krypton made him such an interesting character, but the second Last Stand of New Krypton started, he became a douche bag who would sacrifice his own men without a second thought. I've never been super into Zod, but the middle of this epic story made me see a character who could be fascinating. The end just causally tossed that aside.

    Oh, so I didn't read the Nightwing and Flamebird sections, but am I to understand that Chris was possessed by an entity that turned him into a teenager and then proceeded to have a physical relationship with a woman before being turned back into a 12-year-old? That's really gross. Like really really gross.
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  7. #82
    Astonishing Member Doctor Know's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    Welp. I just finished War of Supermen. That ending was...wow...not good. Definitely see what people mean about the reset button. All that work for such an unsatisfying conclusion. The most annoying part though had to be Zod. World of New Krypton made him such an interesting character, but the second Last Stand of New Krypton started, he became a douche bag who would sacrifice his own men without a second thought. I've never been super into Zod, but the middle of this epic story made me see a character who could be fascinating. The end just causally tossed that aside.

    Oh, so I didn't read the Nightwing and Flamebird sections, but am I to understand that Chris was possessed by an entity that turned him into a teenager and then proceeded to have a physical relationship with a woman before being turned back into a 12-year-old? That's really gross. Like really really gross.
    Yeah, the conclusion was a total cluster cuss. 80,000 Kryptonians killed by Luthor and Sam Lane. 20,000 killed by Brainiac and Supes and Kara are over it in the blink of an eye. The Phantom Zone is back out of nowhere, after Zod destroyed it. The JLA, JSA, TT and Legion do next to nothing to stem the violence or save lives. Why not just shrink new Krypton and take it to the 31st century with the rest of the bottle city worlds?


    As for Chris and Thara, yes. That is what happened.


  8. #83
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    Welp. I just finished War of Supermen. That ending was...wow...not good. Definitely see what people mean about the reset button. All that work for such an unsatisfying conclusion. The most annoying part though had to be Zod. World of New Krypton made him such an interesting character, but the second Last Stand of New Krypton started, he became a douche bag who would sacrifice his own men without a second thought. I've never been super into Zod, but the middle of this epic story made me see a character who could be fascinating. The end just causally tossed that aside.

    Oh, so I didn't read the Nightwing and Flamebird sections, but am I to understand that Chris was possessed by an entity that turned him into a teenager and then proceeded to have a physical relationship with a woman before being turned back into a 12-year-old? That's really gross. Like really really gross.
    That ending was perhaps one of the few times I’ve actually been angry about a comic. They absolutely blew it in every regard, and I’m still mad about it. Yeah the Chris-Thara relationship is one of those “wtf” moments that makes you wonder how the hell editorial approved it.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    That ending was perhaps one of the few times I’ve actually been angry about a comic. They absolutely blew it in every regard, and I’m still mad about it. Yeah the Chris-Thara relationship is one of those “wtf” moments that makes you wonder how the hell editorial approved it.
    I'm guessing they weren't originally planning to turn Chris back into a 12-year-old, but it's still super weird. This is one reason why they shouldn't do age-ups. It was weird with Chris, it was weird with Bart, and it's going to be weird with Jon if they go that route (which they most likely will since most writers seem to be unable to write teenagers without love interests).
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  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    That ending was perhaps one of the few times I’ve actually been angry about a comic. They absolutely blew it in every regard, and I’m still mad about it. Yeah the Chris-Thara relationship is one of those “wtf” moments that makes you wonder how the hell editorial approved it.
    People have been screaming for that particular editor's head for along time (there is a thread made before the wipe calling for his removal over the Perez/Giffen/Jurgns mess on Nu52 Superman). Off the top of my head he is responsible for the entire mess with Superman during New 52 that Perez talked about, Amazons Attack (for WW), all the bts troubles on Wonder Woman and Superman from One Year Later to several years into New 52, War of the Supermen and not to mention all the stuff he was involved in at Marvel. Keeping Berganza of all people on Superman would have been a better option than giving it to that guy.
    Last edited by Bruce Wayne; 07-15-2019 at 04:04 PM.

  11. #86
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Wayne View Post
    People have been screaming for that particular editor's head for along time (there is a thread made before the wipe calling for his removal over the Perez/Giffen/Jurgns mess on Nu52 Superman). Off the top of my head he is responsible for the entire mess with Superman during New 52 that Perez talked about, Amazons Attack (for WW), all the bts troubles on Wonder Woman and Superman from One Year Later to several years into New 52, War of the Supermen and not to mention all the stuff he was involved in at Marvel. Keeping Berganza of all people on Superman would have been a better option than giving it to that guy.
    I understand that it’s not nice to name names, but holy **** one guy was responsible for all of that? Because those are without a doubt some of the worst creative work DC has ever put out. Did he edit the New 52 Static Shock series too?

  12. #87
    Extraordinary Member Zero Hunter's Avatar
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    I have said for years that DC missed a great idea at the end of this story. Instead of just throwing Lor-Lod/Chris Kent back into the Phantom Zone they should have sent him to the future and made him the permanent full time Superboy of the Legion of Super Heroes. It would still keep the time ties to Superman intact while at the same time giving the Legion writers a character they had full control over. It is all moot now with the mess Bendis is creating, but it is still a missed opportunity.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero Hunter View Post
    I have said for years that DC missed a great idea at the end of this story. Instead of just throwing Lor-Lod/Chris Kent back into the Phantom Zone they should have sent him to the future and made him the permanent full time Superboy of the Legion of Super Heroes. It would still keep the time ties to Superman intact while at the same time giving the Legion writers a character they had full control over. It is all moot now with the mess Bendis is creating, but it is still a missed opportunity.
    Isn't that what they were doing with Mon-El back then?
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  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    I understand that it’s not nice to name names, but holy **** one guy was responsible for all of that?
    To be fair, no. These days Berganza is pointed at as the one responsible for everything bad with Superman - mostly because he has been involved in some pretty nasty sexual harassment scandals and it has become almost impossible to defend him anymore. And sure, there have been many problems with his management. However, he was relatively competent elsewhere (Blackest Night went pretty well as far as I know, and it was considered the most successful DC event for a very long time) and had some good intuitions at the beginning of the Loeb/Kelly era. By the way, the editor of Amazons Attack was Matt Idelson, not Eddie Berganza.

    I'd say that the problems with Superman in the latest decades largely depend on a deadly combination of responsibilities shared among Berganza, Didio, other editors, and - probably, partially - the writers themselves. Bad timing, misfortune and copyright issues are probably involved, too.
    Last edited by Myskin; 07-15-2019 at 11:32 PM.
    Educational town, Rolemodel city and Moralofthestory land are the places where good comics go to die.

    DC writers and editors looked up and shouted "Save us!"
    And Alan Moore looked down and whispered "No."

  15. #90
    Incredible Member kingaliencracker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Wayne View Post
    People have been screaming for that particular editor's head for along time (there is a thread made before the wipe calling for his removal over the Perez/Giffen/Jurgns mess on Nu52 Superman). Off the top of my head he is responsible for the entire mess with Superman during New 52 that Perez talked about, Amazons Attack (for WW), all the bts troubles on Wonder Woman and Superman from One Year Later to several years into New 52, War of the Supermen and not to mention all the stuff he was involved in at Marvel. Keeping Berganza of all people on Superman would have been a better option than giving it to that guy.
    So far be it from me to be the one to defend Berganza on anything, but...

    The New 52 mess with George Perez was more Grant Morrison and his refusal to share his storylines for Action with anyone except Rags Morales. This was due to (what he perceived to be) other writers stealing his ideas for Final Crisis prior to that story being released. Now, I suppose it could be argued that Berganza allowed the arrangement so he's responsible for the mess that eventually happened but it's very likely Didio, Lee, and/or Harras would have approved the same arrangement if it meant getting Grant on one of the main Superman titles for New 52.

    Also, I don't think Berganza was involved with Amazon's Attack, but I may be mistaken.

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