Is the Hobgoblin overrated as a villain?

[kingaliencracker]

Let me start this thread by stating that I was a HUGE Hobgoblin fan when I was younger and first got into Spider-Man. I would say that I still am, although this has been lessened due to the fact that Norman Osborn returned during the end of the Clone Saga.

But I've been rereading the original Hobgoblin arc from Roger Stern's run. I can't help but wonder if perhaps he was overrated to begin with. Now obviously we have the benefit of hindsight knowing the controversy behind the reveal of the Hobgoblin's identity. But even if Stern had stayed on and revealed that Hobgoblin was Roderick Kingsley all along as he intended, I feel like I would have been completely letdown by that, almost as much as I was when it was revealed Ned Leeds was Hobgoblin after he was already dead. I think Tom DeFalco's choice of Richard Fisk would have been the most interesting, especially since Stern used Kingpin during the original Hobgoblin arc and Kingpin was clearly concerned that Hobgoblin could usurp his power. But I guess we'll never know how that would have played out. I'm not even going to talk about the whole "twin brother" angle especially given the fact that Daniel was not Roderick's twin.

I also have an issue with Hobgoblin's motivations, especially given the fact that Kingsley was already well-off and didn't need to steal or blackmail people to maintain his living. The same could be said about Osborn, but Osborn was crazy. With Hobgoblin, his motivations seemingly were just to wreak havoc and defeat Spider-Man for...fun? This kind of flimsy motivation for a villain may have worked in the early days, but by the 1980's there should have been a little more substance behind the motives.

There's also the fact that several writers after Stern H-A-T-E-D the Hobgoblin and refused to use him. John Semper, who wrote and produced the Animated Series, greatly disliked the character and hated the fact that he had to introduce him first before the Green Goblin.

Don't get me wrong. I consider Stern's run with Spider-Man to be quintessential. But I'm definitely questioning how good of a villain the Hobgoblin was and is.

[Hugo Strange]

Unfortunately Hobgoblin worked only with Roger Stern and Tom DeFalco.

[leokearon]

I prefer Hobgoblin to Green Goblin. Kingsley at least has tried to grow and develop with the whole franchise idea, while Osborn just keeps trying to kill a man half his age,even when he gets more power. KIngsley also has become a bit more interesting since his return, unlike Osborn who became overused and overpowered.

[NC_Yankee]

I prefer Hobgoblin to Green Goblin. Kingsley at least has tried to grow and develop with the whole franchise idea, while Osborn just keeps trying to kill a man half his age,even when he gets more power. KIngsley also has become a bit more interesting since his return, unlike Osborn who became overused and overpowered.

Kingsley is NOT overrated, he easily makes the "Dirty Dozen" Rogues Gallery list. In fact, if you think about it, how many of those bad guys would most people rank over him? 1: Ock ( Otto). 2: Green Goblin ( Norm) . 3: Lizard. 4: Venom. 5: Carnage. 6: Mysterio. The other ones I would put there ( in no particular order) are Kraven ( Sergei), Sandman, Rhino, Electro ( Dillion) and Kingpin.

[leokearon]

Kingsley is NOT overrated, he easily makes the "Dirty Dozen" Rogues Gallery list. In fact, if you think about it, how many of those bad guys would most people rank over him? 1: Ock ( Otto). 2: Green Goblin ( Norm) . 3: Lizard. 4: Venom. 5: Carnage. 6: Mysterio. The other ones I would put there ( in no particular order) are Kraven ( Sergei), Sandman, Rhino, Electro ( Dillion) and Kingpin.

He would easily be in my top 5, he may even be just below the "Big 3"

[kingaliencracker]

Unfortunately Hobgoblin worked only with Roger Stern and Tom DeFalco.

Well, he was definitely more effective when you didn't know who he was, and solving the mystery of the character was the majority of the fun. I just don't know if, 36 years later, fans would still have appreciated it.

[Snoop Dogg]

who currently possesses urich's flame-sword

[leokearon]

who currently possesses urich's flame-sword

Unless Osbron took it, maybe either in the hands of the authorities or it's still in Osborn's old hideout

[Obeythemoderators]

Well, he was definitely more effective when you didn't know who he was, and solving the mystery of the character was the majority of the fun. I just don't know if, 36 years later, fans would still have appreciated it.

Perphaps it would have been better if his true identity was never revealed.

Design wise, Hobgoblin looks like Etrigan the Demon with an orange vest and hood.

kirby-demon6.jpg
Hobgoblin.jpg

Ditko's Goblin has the more original design however silly it looks to some people.
.

In fairness Etrigans design was itself taken from the first Prince Valiant story.

[Lukmendes]

He honestly feels underrated if anything.

Kingsley was fun enough since he had a decent amount of pragmatism Spidey villains kinda lacked, and there was how he was still a novice at first trying to improve, since he severely underestimated Spidey and took note of that, but his pragmatism is redundant now that Norman ironically stole this trait from him, and Norman can get more varied stories both because of his more personal story with Peter and being a way bigger businessman, so his position of power can be used in different ways.

It sucks, but there's not much point to Kingsley now, Norman got some of the few stuff that made Kingsley stand out, Norman also got other traits that make him barely have anything in common with his Silver Age self for his threat level to be bigger than just "This douchebag knows Spidey's secret identity!", which does give him more varied stories potential since Norman being able to attack Peter's family and lose his memory got old really fast, but that came at the price of making Kingsley redundant, so yeah.

[PCN24454]

He honestly feels underrated if anything.

Kingsley was fun enough since he had a decent amount of pragmatism Spidey villains kinda lacked, and there was how he was still a novice at first trying to improve, since he severely underestimated Spidey and took note of that, but his pragmatism is redundant now that Norman ironically stole this trait from him, and Norman can get more varied stories both because of his more personal story with Peter and being a way bigger businessman, so his position of power can be used in different ways.

It sucks, but there's not much point to Kingsley now, Norman got some of the few stuff that made Kingsley stand out, Norman also got other traits that make him barely have anything in common with his Silver Age self for his threat level to be bigger than just "This douchebag knows Spidey's secret identity!", which does give him more varied stories potential since Norman being able to attack Peter's family and lose his memory got old really fast, but that came at the price of making Kingsley redundant, so yeah.

This is honestly what made me appreciate BND Norman more.

While pettiness can be entertaining, it shouldn't be a character's sole defining feature.

[Mister Mets]

Unfortunately Hobgoblin worked only with Roger Stern and Tom DeFalco.

I'm not entirely sure that's true, but this does get to one of his strengths: His first appearances were consistently good, especially when written by Stern (ASM 238-239, ASM 244-245, ASM 249-251) or DeFalco (scripted the final issues of ASM 250-251, ASM 259-261, ASM 275-276.) That's pretty rare for bad guys outside the Silver Age.

[SuperiorIronman]

I have a lot of good things to say about Hobgoblin, but yeah he's not the one with the greatest of motivations and that's really an issue of every goblin. That's no excuse for what could use a retcon, but I don't hold it against the character considering none of them really have the best foot forward.
Though to me what makes him rival if not superior to Norman is that they actually went somewhere with him. There was a kind of clear idea of who and what he was even if his origins don't quite work. Hobgoblin might as well do things for kicks, but he had a clear idea on who he was and had a few clever ideas under his belt. To me anyways it's a character that has endured because people know when and where to use him, and for the most part he's been used well.

Norman being back does hurt him a little, but whereas writers don't really know what Norman is outside of "villain" Hobgoblin comes off a bit better.

[Hypestyle]

just don't have him go insane like Norman. Give him another hero to heckle for a while. Go to Dallas. Miami. Denver.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Let me start this thread by stating that I was a HUGE Hobgoblin fan when I was younger and first got into Spider-Man. I would say that I still am, although this has been lessened due to the fact that Norman Osborn returned during the end of the Clone Saga.

Got it in one. The Hobgoblin was finished the minute Norman Osborn returned. He lost his original purpose. Roger Stern didn't want to bring Norman back but he didn't like Harry Osborn as the Green Goblin or anyone who came after, so he came up with a new mystery and identity, with the idea that Roderick Kingsley be a permanent replacement for Norman.

But I've been rereading the original Hobgoblin arc from Roger Stern's run. I can't help but wonder if perhaps he was overrated to begin with.

I think that the reason Hobgoblin had the cult he did (and let's be real, he was always a cult character...Venom and Carnage who followed him were far bigger than he ever was at his height) is that he caught the imagination of kids who were too young to be exposed to the original mystery of the Green Goblin. So Stern was recreating that for younger kids but with melodramatic turns and so on.

The weaknesses with Roderick Kingsley and Hobgoblin is this:

1) Hobgoblin is better because he is sane and Norman isn't. I always had huge problems because the trope rests on the idea that comic book insanity is in any degree comparable to the real kind. In comic books, insanity is just some gothic thing that writers use. It's got nothing real to it.

2) Likewise, here's the thing at the end of the day, Kingsley is a rich dude who endangers his life by going on a glider and wearing a halloween mask. That's not rational under any circumstances. For someone who's supposed to be a pragmatic villain, the thing to do would be to sell his stuff to Uncle Sam or mass market the goblin serum as steroids and so on. Again Kingsley needs more explanations as to why he does stupid self-destructive things than Norman does.

3) Kingsley is a perfume selling corporate magnate and a fashion mogul. Nobody has ever given a satisfying answer how someone without any physics or chemistry background could recreate Norman's serum. This is also a problem with Miles Warren mastering human cloning on an ESU salary but I think everyone's in agreement that the Jackal is a s--ty villain.

4) Kingsley's theme as a fashion mogul and so on could have made him a great theme villain, someone who illustrates New York's fashion industry, and potentially also tie into MJ's story. But that doesn't happen. The only bit was in Defalco's run where MJ, uses her salary while working for Kingsley to bail Peter out and keep him from being chased out. That was good. Ironic and simple. But that's not developed further.

Roger Stern's run still has many great stuff without the Hobgoblin story. It's not the be-all and end-all of his run. I think Hobgoblin will work if he's moved into Miles' story and becomes a villain for Miles. A legacy Goblin versus a legacy Spider-Man. Yeah. That works.