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  1. #106
    Don't Bully a Hurt Dragon Sergard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nhienphan2808 View Post
    It's not about being original, it's that Dick is Dick and Jason is something entirely different. It weakens his character when he, with his anti-hero worldview and circumtances, acts like Dick.
    Well, NOW it's the wrong thread i guess. It's more of a recurring problem with Prime earth Jason under Didio than anything.
    Dick and Jason are different but not entirely. There are differences but they also have some things in common (a statement that's true for a lot of DC characters. I think it's actually difficult to find two characters who don't have anything in common).
    I've already pointed out how in my opinion Dick would have behaved in Event Leviathan #2. But if I interpret your posts correctly, Dick would have had the same reaction as Jason (which is an anti-hero reaction, in my eyes).
    So maybe you could add how - in your opinion - Jason should have reacted in Event Leviathan #2?

  2. #107
    Astonishing Member Dark_Tzitzimine's Avatar
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    No, Jason definitely read like a cypher here. There's nothing really distinct about his characterization and you could've easily replaced him with Dick or Tim and nothing would've changed. Through all of RHATO, Jason has made clear he hates/is not interested in being tangled with the huge events and rather let the JL handle it while he takes care of what he believes is important. So why is he interested on whatever happened to Argus? That's Dick or Tim wheelhouse. The exception is when Bruce asks him to lend a hand, something it didn't happen here.

    Jason is still at odds with Bruce, so the lack of conflict here is strange. Again, replace the token "can we work together" line for something else and it could've been Dick or Tim in his place.

    Jason being the prime suspect is nonsensical to begin with so again, the same BS accusations could be done against Dick or Tim.

    And lastly, Jason reaction of running away is just the kind of generic reaction you'd expect from a story like this.

    Bendis didn't write Jason badly but is more because he wrote a generic scapegoat role to put him in than an actual role.

    Still better than King's attempts with Jason though.

  3. #108
    Don't Bully a Hurt Dragon Sergard's Avatar
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    Why shouldn't Jason be interested in whatever happened to Argus?


    In RH:O #31 it's stated that Jason made anonymous tips about Underlife to the D.E.O., Spyral and A.R.G.U.S. - and shortly after, all these organizations are gone.
    In the same issue Jason sends Wingman, Bunker and Dog to Gotham while Jason says that he'll follow later but he has a few things that he needs to do first.
    In Event Leviathan #2 Bruce asks Jason if he has heard anything from Talia, and Jason answers that he wanted to ask the same question.
    Since Underlife is part of Talia's Leviathan organization it wouldn't be too far-fetched to assume that Jason wanted to confront Talia about Underlife and maybe even Solitary.
    But before Jason could find Talia, all the spy organizations were taken down.




    Something else I have just noticed now: Someone has torn off the Manhunter part of the detective photo on the board. Maybe that's a clue in some way?
    Last edited by Sergard; 07-14-2019 at 01:09 PM.

  4. #109
    Astonishing Member Dark_Tzitzimine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sergard View Post
    Why shouldn't Jason be interested in whatever happened to Argus? In RH:O #31 it's stated that Jason made anonymous tips about Underlife to the D.E.O., Spyral and A.R.G.U.S. - and shortly after, all these organizations are gone.
    Why would he? He also worked together with SHADE in the past and is only until those organizations want something with him that he gets involved. Jason focus has always been tackling down the criminal underworld of whatever he goes, normally one case at the time. Is only when external factors enter in play that he broadens his scope. Just to give you an example, Jason only get involved with the Underlife because Roy asked him for.

    In the same issue Jason sends Wingman, Bunker and Dog to Gotham while Jason says that he'll follow later but he has a few things that he needs to do first.
    This what has to do with Leviathan? If anything is obvious that what Jason needed to do was get in touch with the Su sisters and arrange their move to Gotham.

    In Event Leviathan #2 Bruce asks Jason if he has heard anything from Talia, and Jason answers that he wanted to ask the same question.
    Again, a random line that thanks to the way Talia has been handled in recent years lack any sort of meaningful connection with Jason. Talia is now a criminal mastermind that regularly has encounters with multiple heroes, far from being the reclusive assassin master that Jason could be in touch with.

    Since Underlife is part of Talia's Leviathan organization it wouldn't be too far-fetched to assume that Jason wanted to confront Talia about Underlife and maybe even Solitary.
    Retconned, Underlife was all Solitary and by now is out of business.

    But before Jason could find Talia, all the spy organizations were taken down.
    Again, I don't get what this has to do with Leviathan or how is meaningful in any way. Bruce and Selina only needed to travel through the desert to find Talia in Batman and in Leviathan Rises, Talia is freaking traveling around on a discount SHIELD Helicarrier, hardly what I'd call a low profile. And if you want to take into account recent events in other books, Ra's himself is in Gotham at the moment, further diluting the importance of Jason's previous relationship with Talia.

  5. #110
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    why are people under the assumption any writer cares about lobdell red hood book or if they care about each other book at all. this is dcyou all over again story over continuity and if they're going with continuity it wouldn't be Scott Lobdell version of Jason. When writers that usually writer jason in other books they try to keep some of lobdell version but really they try to go back to basic, take some of winnick vision and keep some of morrison traits.

    i'm going to be honest because of the way bendis is writing this he took it from morrison leviathan, talia and jason are friends they must have patch things up,Damian rope in talia and jason together. when speaking of the group,who would talia let take control of the group and not tell on when ask, who runs leviathan, the obivious choice if not damian or ras is jason

  6. #111
    Astonishing Member Dark_Tzitzimine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redmax99 View Post
    why are people under the assumption any writer cares about lobdell red hood book or if they care about each other book at all. this is dcyou all over again story over continuity and if they're going with continuity it wouldn't be Scott Lobdell version of Jason. When writers that usually writer jason in other books they try to keep some of lobdell version but really they try to go back to basic, take some of winnick vision and keep some of morrison traits.
    For example? Red Hair and Psychosis are out. Being a crime lord and killing criminals are out, hating Bruce and the batfamily are out. Current depictions of Jason are more in line characterization-wise with Lobdell's work than they do with Winnick's or Morrison's. The exact details are wrong of course but is obvious that Lobdell's take is the one used as a basis.

    That said, I'm not arguing about Bendis bothering of keeping continuity with Lobdell because is Bendis, he doesn't care for any continuity but his. I'm simply arguing that even like that (or maybe precisely due that) his take of Jason is superficial, and that he could've easily replaced by another Robin. Is better than I expected from Bendis, but far from being "the best Jason has been written recently" that I've seen some claim.

  7. #112
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redmax99 View Post
    why are people under the assumption any writer cares about lobdell red hood book or if they care about each other book at all. this is dcyou all over again story over continuity and if they're going with continuity it wouldn't be Scott Lobdell version of Jason. When writers that usually writer jason in other books they try to keep some of lobdell version but really they try to go back to basic, take some of winnick vision and keep some of morrison traits.

    i'm going to be honest because of the way bendis is writing this he took it from morrison leviathan, talia and jason are friends they must have patch things up,Damian rope in talia and jason together. when speaking of the group,who would talia let take control of the group and not tell on when ask, who runs leviathan, the obivious choice if not damian or ras is jason
    Jason fans, most of then, hate Morrison's Jason, or at least pre-FP Morrison's Jason. And they do usually like Lobdell's Jason almost or as much as Winnicks. Which makes sense, because at this point he has written the character most time than anyone else. And he has a good take of him despite other flaws you could argue about his work.

    So why ignoring hishistory under Lobdell at all? If you want to draw Jason's fans to the book it's a bad move. Stick to the continuity as if it were a commandment, I can understand how it could be restrictive for creatitivy. But ignore it in favor of materian that people don't want to acknowledge? Eeh... And I liked Morrison's work in Batman, mostly. But Jason there was something else entirely, and easily the weakest part of it all.

    I think Bendis's Jason is ok so far. Weak, but it has an overall right feel, it seems. I disagree with @Dark in that it could be any other Robin. It certainly couldn't have been Damian, or Dick for reasons I already said for me. I don't know Tim as well as the others, but I guess it could've been him too, somehow, if you work the situatipn a bit.

    But this is a matter of opinions entirely, and how each one plays the characters in their heads.
    Last edited by Zaresh; 07-14-2019 at 10:56 PM.
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  8. #113
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    [QUOTE=Zaresh;4457040]Jason fans, most of then, hate Morrison's Jason, or at least pre-FP Morrison's Jason. And they do usually like Lobdell's Jason almost or as much as Winnicks. Which makes sense, because at this point he has written the character most time than anyone else. And he has a good take of him despite other flaws you could argue about his work.

    So why ignoring hishistory under Lobdell at all? If you want to draw Jason's fans to the book it's a bad move. Stick to the continuity as if it were a commandment, I can understand how it could be restrictive for creatitivy. But ignore it in favor of materian that people don't want to acknowledge? Eeh... And I liked Morrison's work in Batman, mostly. But Jason there was something else entirely, and easily the weakest part of it all. ]

    Not all jason todd fans read lobdell or read red hood outlaw. most of his die hard fans who wrote into dc begging for a red hood book, drop off mid new 52 because thats not their jason,roy or kori. than you have some red hood fans that stuck it out because it's the only jason book they have.

    you want continuity lobdell doesn't even know jason shows up in other people book sometimes until it probably goes to print. they're not trying to collab on what their jason should be if they stick to lobdell version it's a miracle.

  9. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark_Tzitzimine View Post
    For example? Red Hair and Psychosis are out. Being a crime lord and killing criminals are out, hating Bruce and the batfamily are out. Current depictions of Jason are more in line characterization-wise with Lobdell's work than they do with Winnick's or Morrison's. The exact details are wrong of course but is obvious that Lobdell's take is the one used as a basis.

    That said, I'm not arguing about Bendis bothering of keeping continuity with Lobdell because is Bendis, he doesn't care for any continuity but his. I'm simply arguing that even like that (or maybe precisely due that) his take of Jason is superficial, and that he could've easily replaced by another Robin. Is better than I expected from Bendis, but far from being "the best Jason has been written recently" that I've seen some claim.
    no he couldn't because only two robins are connected to leviathan and that's jason and damian. damian because talia is his mom and jason because he was apart of leviathan, even as a double agent talia will welcome him back with open arms if he wanted to come back.

  10. #115
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redmax99 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaresh View Post
    Jason fans, most of then, hate Morrison's Jason, or at least pre-FP Morrison's Jason. And they do usually like Lobdell's Jason almost or as much as Winnicks. Which makes sense, because at this point he has written the character most time than anyone else. And he has a good take of him despite other flaws you could argue about his work.

    So why ignoring hishistory under Lobdell at all? If you want to draw Jason's fans to the book it's a bad move. Stick to the continuity as if it were a commandment, I can understand how it could be restrictive for creatitivy. But ignore it in favor of materian that people don't want to acknowledge? Eeh... And I liked Morrison's work in Batman, mostly. But Jason there was something else entirely, and easily the weakest part of it all.
    Not all jason todd fans read lobdell or read red hood outlaw. most of his die hard fans who wrote into dc begging for a red hood book, drop off mid new 52 because thats not their jason,roy or kori. than you have some red hood fans that stuck it out because it's the only jason book they have.

    you want continuity lobdell doesn't even know jason shows up in other people book sometimes until it probably goes to print. they're not trying to collab on what their jason should be if they stick to lobdell version it's a miracle.
    Look at the kind of fanfics. While most are still working with post-Crisis, pre-Flashpoint continuity, most of them, too, add to it New 52 elements, like Roy's friendship. Even cartoon universes fanfics add him to the cast who deals with Jason. Kori, too, pretty often, and Biz and Artemis are recently being added to those, even if the number of them is still small. Morrison's redhead Jason, instead, is almost non existent in fanfics. And I can say almost the same regarding fanart, where his New 52 design and companions, alogside the Batfam, is everywhere.

    So no, I don't think there are a lot of die hard fans that totally discard Lobdell's work entirely. Fans are selective, as everyone else is. And definitely they tend to mix Winnick's, Arkhamverse and Lobdell's works. Even Dini's take in Countdown has more presence by adding Kyle and / or Donna to his cast and background.

    Edit: to input more data to help my point. Out of all the wedding specials, Seeley's (a writer people usually trust) special for Red Hood and Anarky sold about 50k. It was low figures, compared to the other specials. Red Hood fanbase in the comic continuity, who are the comm that matters here, is small. It may be even smaller than Barbara's. That's why I doubt that, even under a new writer, Jason would sell regularly over 30k nowadays. Unless it's an event (like the wedding), a mini or a prestigious writer (which will be the case for both with Johns' Three Jokers). And this applies to every character ever who aren't A or B listers.
    Last edited by Zaresh; 07-15-2019 at 05:49 AM.
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  11. #116
    Mighty Member Rise's Avatar
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    The Red Hood wedding special was reordered month later after it was released which was the only one besides Harley's to get that. Red Hood has fans who are interested in him but refuse to buy his book because they don't like Lobdell's writing.

    Anyway, comics don't matter much anymore and the entire industry is struggling to survive. As for Bendis' take on red hood, there's nothing offensive about it and him mentioning Jason's bond with Roy already prove that he is acknowledging Lobdell's run.
    Last edited by Rise; 07-15-2019 at 06:57 AM.

  12. #117
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rise View Post
    The Red Hood wedding special was reordered month later after it was released which was the only one besides Harley's to get that. Red Hood has fans who are interested in him but refuse to buy his book because they don't like Lobdell's writing.

    Anyway, comics don't matter much anymore and the entire industry is struggling to survive. As for Bendis' take on red hood, there's nothing offensive about it to and the fact that he mention it his bond with Roy already prove that he is acknowledging Lobdell's run.
    I know there are readers who don't buy because of that, yes; but I'm guessing it's not a lot of them, not most. May be wrong, I don't know.

    We're talking about comics, so comics is the thing that matter in this discussion for me. He's pretty popular outside comics, it's easily a character that people demands in videogames as an extra or DLC, I know that. And Under the Red Hood is easily one of the most favourite Batman movies, always besides Mask of the Phantasm. But his fanbase (not people who like him in general) is still relatively small. Whenever I find an adult comic reader, (not a non-stop reader of comics, but the average one) a batman fan even, and I say that I'm a fan of Red Hood, I usually have to explain who he is. Granted, I'm not in the States, but even if our community isn't that big here, I would think our comic crowd are, at least, a good focus group.

    Edit: I checked the numbers for the wedding special. Between June and July it did 54k.
    Last edited by Zaresh; 07-15-2019 at 07:15 AM.
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  13. #118
    Mighty Member Rise's Avatar
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    We are talking about sales and it's relevant to my point that are hardly anyone cares about comics nowdays and even Batman who used to be a big seller is struggling.

    And let's be honest here, Lobdell doesn't have the best reputation which is hurting sales. The readers of RHATO also aren't by any means representative of his fanbase nor they make the majority because most couldn't care less about it. I myself lost interest in his book, but I still like Red Hood and will follow his appearances outside of comics (and I will read a comic with him if someone managed to attract my interest).
    Last edited by Rise; 07-15-2019 at 07:19 AM.

  14. #119
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rise View Post
    We are talking about sales and it's relevant to my point that are hardly anyone cares about comics nowdays and even Batman who used to be a big seller is struggling.

    And let's be honest here, Lobdell doesn't have the best reputation which is hurting sales. The readers of RHATO also aren't by any means representative of his fanbase nor they make the majority because most couldn't care less about it. I myself lost interest in comics, but I still like Red Hood and will follow his appearances outside of comics.
    Question .
    Hum, do you think sales would improve a lot with a change of writer? Would you come back to read his comics?

    (I know a lot of people don't read the book because Lobdell. I was really arguing that it's most of Jason's fans that want to avoid all in that continuity. Maybe I've lost my way through my words)

    Edit: nevermind. My question has been just answered. Thanks!
    Last edited by Zaresh; 07-15-2019 at 07:23 AM.
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  15. #120
    Astonishing Member Dark_Tzitzimine's Avatar
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    I mean, people interested in the characters but not on the comics is a problem at large for the big two. Even the MCU despite being a behemoth in the box office has failed to truly revitalize Marvel Comics, so to say Lobdell is the biggest obstacle for Red Hood to get sales is disingenuous at best. Furthermore, using as proof a tie in for a widely publicized event that was meant to "change Batman Status Quo for the next generation" is meaningless, because it would sell like hotcakes no matter what. They could've printed random scribbles in a napkin and it would've sold, that is just how the market works nowadays.

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