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  1. #76
    Mighty Member RedBird's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonTodd428 View Post
    Because Jason was set up here and the fact that they found Bat-like tech at the scene is the proof. Clearly someone wants this group to believe Jason was the one behind it so as to distract them from the real culprit. Its mystery 101.
    The thing is, even IF the bat-like tech was a legitimate piece of evidence and most certainly NOT just a false trail, that's still not enough evidence to automatically find specifically Jason as guilty, so far there's nothing directly linking him to Leviathan. No direct evidence whatsoever. The only thing presented to link Jason was that he was currently grieving for Roy and that that would be probable cause or a suspected motive and without any other substantial evidence, that's feels a little weak.

    There's literally nothing but character history that's fueling this suspicion, there's not even enough circumstantial evidence. And whilst its honestly understandable in suspecting that Jason may have something to do with this justice movement that Leviathan is leading, and keeping an eye on him. I don't think it really warranted this dramatic 'gang up on em' reaction just yet.

    There's wasn't even a question of IF he did it, everyone just leap to conclusions with remarks and convictions like you're clearly grieving, that's why you've done this, and immediately demanding to know Where Babs and Waller are?

    It feels like they went from 'hmmm, well he does have a morally grey background with a dissonant sense of justice, he could be capable of this sort of plan.' to 'THAT'S HIM! GET EM BOYS!', real quick.

    This abrupt conclusion, lends itself to the 'Jason is just a Red Herring' theory, and maybe it will come up in the next issue but I feel like Bendis could have at least added a little more credibility to the scenes and suspicions. Unless this is part of Bendis's plan and that the 'Jason is a red herring' section of the story is actually a red herring to deter people from realizing that Jason is actually Leviathan. Shyamalan voice: 'What a twist' :P

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedBird View Post
    The thing is, even IF the bat-like tech was a legitimate piece of evidence and most certainly NOT just a false trail, that's still not enough evidence to automatically find specifically Jason as guilty, so far there's nothing directly linking him to Leviathan. No direct evidence whatsoever. The only thing presented to link Jason was that he was currently grieving for Roy and that that would be probable cause or a suspected motive and without any other substantial evidence, that's feels a little weak.

    There's literally nothing but character history that's fueling this suspicion, there's not even enough circumstantial evidence. And whilst its honestly understandable in suspecting that Jason may have something to do with this justice movement that Leviathan is leading, and keeping an eye on him. I don't think it really warranted this dramatic 'gang up on em' reaction just yet.

    There's wasn't even a question of IF he did it, everyone just leap to conclusions with remarks and convictions like you're clearly grieving, that's why you've done this, and immediately demanding to know Where Babs and Waller are?

    It feels like they went from 'hmmm, well he does have a morally grey background with a dissonant sense of justice, he could be capable of this sort of plan.' to 'THAT'S HIM! GET EM BOYS!', real quick.

    This abrupt conclusion, lends itself to the 'Jason is just a Red Herring' theory, and maybe it will come up in the next issue but I feel like Bendis could have at least added a little more credibility to the scenes and suspicions. Unless this is part of Bendis's plan and that the 'Jason is a red herring' section of the story is actually a red herring to deter people from realizing that Jason is actually Leviathan. Shyamalan voice: 'What a twist' :P

    I really do not think setting up Jason as a red-herring is Bendis’s aim. Jason is being written as extremely sympathetic here. His reactions are all appropriate, his priority is Barbara, he is the one to suggest the truce and he asks a bunch of smart, sensible questions. Uncharacteristically he doesn’t lose his temper at all, and his response to being accused is just weary resignation. Batman is repeatedly drawn looming over him and putting him in the position of inferiority, as are the detectives when they come on the scene. He is accused not only of being the villain responsible for all these potential deaths, but of being so crazy that he does not even realize he is doing it and he is just resigned and even polite about it. We get seven separate panels in that two page spread showing him becoming more hurt and withdrawn as their accusations build up. That is a lot of very deliberate decisions in the opposite direction from the choices you would make if you were trying to make him look guilty. It is not hard to make Jason look guilty.

    This could all be a feint because he really is Leviathan, it could be a ‘driven into the grasp of the enemy scenario’ where at the end of the day BatmanÂ’s actions compel Jason to take up Leviathan’s cause, or it could be all a set up, reverse-mole scenarios because Batman thinks one of the Detectives is a plant and Jason is going undercover, but I think whatever happens this isnÂ’t written with the priority of ‘ooh let’s make the audience think he is guilty’ in mind. Bendis is working to a different set of yet-to-be-revealed priorities.
    Last edited by Swallowtail; 07-11-2019 at 04:25 AM.

  3. #78
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    My take is: They accuse him, but he is in it just to distract the real Leviathan. Basically a fake accusation...

  4. #79
    Anyone. Anywhere.Anytime. Arsenal's Avatar
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    If they have only a couple hours left to figure out who Leviathan is and stop them, wasting time intentionally chasing down somebody you know isn’t Leviathan seems like a bad plan.

  5. #80
    Mighty Member RedBird's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swallowtail View Post
    Uncharacteristically he doesn’t lose his temper at all, and his response to being accused is just weary resignation. Batman is repeatedly drawn looming over him and putting him in the position of inferiority, as are the detectives when they come on the scene. He is accused not only of being the villain responsible for all these potential deaths, but of being so crazy that he does not even realize he is doing it and he is just resigned and even polite about it. We get seven separate panels in that two page spread showing him becoming more hurt and withdrawn as their accusations build up.
    Gosh yes, I was just re-reading the issue and thinking about this. Hats off to the artist for the effective way they displayed Jasons increasingly resigned body language in that scene. Doesn't even fight it, knows no one will be willing to reason with him. It comes off as kinda sad honestly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swallowtail View Post
    but I think whatever happens this isnÂ’t written with the priority of ‘ooh let’s make the audience think he is guilty’ in mind. Bendis is working to a different set of yet-to-be-revealed priorities.
    Agreed, I'm not sure if this is meant to be a direct response to my position, but rest assured, I don't think Bendis is trying to convince us as an audience of Jasons guilt, this issue definitely has had the opposite effect, and like you said Jason comes off as sympathetic, even reasonable in this difficult position. But I still would have liked there to have been more suspicious 'proof' for the detective group to feel justified with when hunting him down, cause within the narrative they honestly just come off as irrational in their stance.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arsenal View Post
    If they have only a couple hours left to figure out who Leviathan is and stop them, wasting time intentionally chasing down somebody you know isn’t Leviathan seems like a bad plan.
    Not if they already know who Levithan is. Or if they think Roy is Leviathan.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swallowtail View Post
    Not if they already know who Levithan is. Or if they think Roy is Leviathan.
    So if they know (or atleast suspect) who Leviathan is, what would team Detective gain by chasing Jason around? Even if it is Roy or somebody who would care about his well being, he would have no reason to reveal themself to save Jason because he’d never be in any real danger even if they do capture him.

  8. #83
    D*mned Prince of Gotham JasonTodd428's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedBird View Post
    The thing is, even IF the bat-like tech was a legitimate piece of evidence and most certainly NOT just a false trail, that's still not enough evidence to automatically find specifically Jason as guilty, so far there's nothing directly linking him to Leviathan. No direct evidence whatsoever. The only thing presented to link Jason was that he was currently grieving for Roy and that that would be probable cause or a suspected motive and without any other substantial evidence, that's feels a little weak.

    There's literally nothing but character history that's fueling this suspicion, there's not even enough circumstantial evidence. And whilst its honestly understandable in suspecting that Jason may have something to do with this justice movement that Leviathan is leading, and keeping an eye on him. I don't think it really warranted this dramatic 'gang up on em' reaction just yet.

    There's wasn't even a question of IF he did it, everyone just leap to conclusions with remarks and convictions like you're clearly grieving, that's why you've done this, and immediately demanding to know Where Babs and Waller are?

    It feels like they went from 'hmmm, well he does have a morally grey background with a dissonant sense of justice, he could be capable of this sort of plan.' to 'THAT'S HIM! GET EM BOYS!', real quick.
    I agree with all your points. At the moment there is absolutely nothing connecting Jason to Leviathan beyond his past history so this gang up makes no sense. There is no explanation as to why they came to the conclusion that Jason must be Leviathan or at the very least must be involved in the scheme somehow. Then again Bendis does have a tendency toward having a lot of stuff happen off panel without giving any kind of real explanation as to what events lead up to what we see on the page so it could very well be yet another case of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by RedBird View Post
    This abrupt conclusion, lends itself to the 'Jason is just a Red Herring' theory, and maybe it will come up in the next issue but I feel like Bendis could have at least added a little more credibility to the scenes and suspicions. Unless this is part of Bendis's plan and that the 'Jason is a red herring' section of the story is actually a red herring to deter people from realizing that Jason is actually Leviathan. Shyamalan voice: 'What a twist' :P
    Oh, I hope it doesn't turn out that way and that Jason's resignation and his taking these accusations in stride were genuine responses to them and not him playing a part for the sake of throwing people off because he is actually Leviathan. I think it would be far more interesting to see Jason trying to discover who is behind this (in his own way of course) rather than to have him actually be the villain here. I also think it would have more of an emotional punch if it does turn out that Roy is the one behind this to have Jason not be Leviathan.
    Last edited by JasonTodd428; 07-11-2019 at 08:10 AM.
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  9. #84
    D*mned Prince of Gotham JasonTodd428's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedBird View Post
    Gosh yes, I was just re-reading the issue and thinking about this. Hats off to the artist for the effective way they displayed Jasons increasingly resigned body language in that scene. Doesn't even fight it, knows no one will be willing to reason with him. It comes off as kinda sad honestly.
    I think its very sad and the way things are conveyed here makes me feel that his reaction to these accusations is genuine and not some act he's putting on to deter them from believing he's guilty. He doesn't even put up a fight, not even verbally, which is something he might have done in the past if he was accused as he is here.

    Quote Originally Posted by RedBird View Post
    Agreed, I'm not sure if this is meant to be a direct response to my position, but rest assured, I don't think Bendis is trying to convince us as an audience of Jasons guilt, this issue definitely has had the opposite effect, and like you said Jason comes off as sympathetic, even reasonable in this difficult position. But I still would have liked there to have been more suspicious 'proof' for the detective group to feel justified with when hunting him down, cause within the narrative they honestly just come off as irrational in their stance.
    I agree. Even just a panel or two with Batman and these other detectives discussing their suspicions that Jason might be Leviathan and why they came to that conclusion would have been sufficient enough to make it feel like their suspicions where justified. But we got nothing and in all honesty that really just makes these "so-called" detectives look extremely stupid and naive, which none of them should be.
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  10. #85
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    And I agree with all of you, about the sadness of Jason, about his resignation and him being sympathetic, about the art depicting said sadness beautifully, and about all those heroes ganging out over him being a bit, well, disproportionate and probably maybe not baseless but weak-based.
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  11. #86
    D*mned Prince of Gotham JasonTodd428's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaresh View Post
    And I agree with all of you, about the sadness of Jason, about his resignation and him being sympathetic, about the art depicting said sadness beautifully, and about all those heroes ganging out over him being a bit, well, disproportionate and probably maybe not baseless but weak-based.
    Honestly I think their accusations, while not necessarily entirely baseless, are based more on the fact that Jason has past ties with Talia than anything else which makes it circumstantial at best. I don't see them accusing Damian of being Leviathan for example and he certainly has more of a connection to Talia than Jason does being a blood relative. I do have to wonder what Damian's purpose in pointing a finger at Jason is though. What was his motivation behind it? Does he honestly think Jason is Leviathan or is there something more afoot here?
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  12. #87
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    When was the last time Jason and Talia interacted? Whereas Damian, Bruce even, have had more contact with her in recent years. And while certainly not a fan of her more dubious actions, she did resurrect/heal him (whichever is now in continuity) and introduce him to the All Caste.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    When was the last time Jason and Talia interacted? Whereas Damian, Bruce even, have had more contact with her in recent years. And while certainly not a fan of her more dubious actions, she did resurrect/heal him (whichever is now in continuity) and introduce him to the All Caste.
    I don't think Talia and Jason have been on the same panel since Batman Inc ended.

  14. #89
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    They have been together in a few flashbacks in RHATO but nothing in the present.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arsenal View Post
    I don't think Talia and Jason have been on the same panel since Batman Inc ended.
    Oh that's right. He cruises in on his bike and then Kathy Netz shoots Talia in the head.

    Yeah ... they've thank Christmas really downplayed the Talia part of his resurrection. I mean it happened, and she did it, for her weirdo reasons, to help or hurt Bruce, and then he was apparently amnesiac and assassin training for a few years, but like ... I feel like Lost Days is probably retconned right the heck out of existence. And probably some of those daffy Chosen One New 52 decisions, too.

    I do think he'd be perfectly motivated to toss her out a window in an airship. He knows enough about the Leviathan structure from assassin experience and the final showdown in Incorporated to make a play at it. And Leviathan's speech patterns feel youthful, like a younger gen DCU hero or villain, not an older one. But Dick still fits the bill better, because he's the DCU's master-spy, even if he's all messed up status quo right now and writers haven't paid much mind to Agent of Spyral since Seeley left the book.

    But I'm an easy mark. I still think Bendis's claim that Huntress was in Action because he couldn't use Nightwing because of Ric Grayson was a balls out lie.
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