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  1. #1
    Spectacular Member Banner's Avatar
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    Default Concepts in fantasy you dislike

    In fantasy, and to some degree in science fiction, we have the idea that religious faith and worshipping is itself a power. If you believe in something strong enough, or there is enough followers, things can come to life. Like the great Decreator. In American Gods there are gods who exist because people believe in them and worship them. In Stargate SG-1, which I otherwise liked a lot, there are energy beings that require energy created from worshipping.
    And I think in Terry Pratchett's Discworld faith is even a resource that you can put in the bank. In Grant Morrison's Happy imaginary friends are real because children believe in them, and everybody seems to have one (personally I never had an imaginary friend, and I have never heard about anyone else who had either). There is even a hint of it in Stephen King's stories, like Salem's Lot. A crucifix only works against vampires if you believe it will work. There are a lot of other examples out there.
    ("The Museum of Stolen Memories" by Ralf Isau turned the concept on its head when it turned out it was the ideas and gods that were forgotten and no longer worshipped that were given an independent existence. An interesting idea, but he ruined it when he added some of his own creationistic propaganda.)

    Of course people have different preferences. There are those who like and don't mind these concepts. This is not about being right or wrong. But personally, I am not too fond of it. Partly because nobody has ever been able to come up with a proper explanation for how it actually works.

    I'm not that excited about prophecies either. Mostly because it makes me think of determinism, which I find kind of depressing (and if everything is predicted, the characters are just following an invisible script like marionettes).

    Also villains that are incredible evil because they are evil, their number one motivation for doing evil things. A whole village of men, women and children slaughtered? Of course, the villain is after all evil. Or when cults are worshipping evil gods and demons for unknown reasons. Or tries to trigger the end of times. Sometimes it is because they believe a new and better world will rise from the ashes. But often they simply want to destroy and end the world for no specific reason.
    Last edited by Banner; 07-10-2019 at 06:18 AM.

  2. #2
    Invincible Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Banner View Post
    Also villains that are incredible evil because they are evil, their number one motivation for doing evil things. A whole village of men, women and children slaughtered? Of course, the villain is after all evil. Or when cults are worshipping evil gods and demons for unknown reasons. Or tries to trigger the end of times. Sometimes it is because they believe a new and better world will rise from the ashes. But often they simply want to destroy and end the world for no specific reason.
    "Some men just want to watch the world burn."
    Alfred Pennyworth

    "Now I will tell you the answer to my question. It is this. The Party seeks power entirely for its own sake. We are not interested in the good of others; we are interested solely in power, pure power. What pure power means you will understand presently. We are different from the oligarchies of the past in that we know what we are doing. All the others, even those who resembled ourselves, were cowards and hypocrites. The German Nazis and the Russian Communists came very close to us in their methods, but they never had the courage to recognize their own motives. They pretended, perhaps they even believed, that they had seized power unwillingly and for a limited time, and that just around the corner there lay a paradise where human beings would be free and equal. We are not like that. We know what no one ever seizes power with the intention of relinquishing it. Power is not a means; it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now you begin to understand me."

    George Orwell
    1984
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  3. #3
    Invincible Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    I don't get why henchmen stick around with villains who routinely kill their own men on a whim.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

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    Ultimate Member babyblob's Avatar
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    I really dislike the whole small town boy is the chosen one type of thing. This it seems has been well over done.
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    After reading AG I didn't get the idea that those gods existed because ppl believed in them. They were described as corporeal beings who had sex and offspring and different versions of them. But they did gain power from ppl worshipping them. Shadowmoon used a magic coin without really believing or knowing how it would work. So not sure if the belief as a power to make thing exist or work is really present in that novel.
    Last edited by CliffHanger2; 07-09-2019 at 06:19 AM.

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    The white savior concept. Wasn't really conscious of it as a child but as I got older grew to dislike it.

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    Extraordinary Member Güicho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Banner View Post
    In fantasy, and to some degree in science fiction, we have the idea that ..... __________
    Quote Originally Posted by Banner View Post
    ..... personally, I am not too fond of it. Partly because nobody has ever been able to come up with a proper explanation for how it actually works.
    Cognitive dissonance? Read what you wrote.
    *

    *yes I intentionally chose Yoda to deliver the message because he is the sci-fi/fantasy embodiment of "If you believe in something..."
    Last edited by Güicho; 07-09-2019 at 01:30 PM.

  8. #8
    Spectacular Member Banner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Güicho View Post
    Cognitive dissonance? Read what you wrote.
    Of all the countless stories written about the topic, nobody has even tried to come up with a pseudo-explanation for how faith and worshipping actually works. Perhaps it exist, but I have never seen it. Especially these days when so-called hard or scientific fantasy has become very popular.
    It is also a misconception that just because something is fantasy or sci-fi, you can get away with everything. Everything needs to follow its own logic and consistency. For instance; why can a group who believe in an entity make this entity come to life, but characters in cartoons and comic books does not. Even if children, which presumably can give life to imaginary friends, pay just as much attention to their own favorites. How do you focus all your love on an object? That require that you are able to turn on and off certain emotions by will. Nobody can do it. If humans are able to do that in a fictional story, it should be pointed out. And how exactly do you worship someone or something? Do you need to believe to do so? If they already have an existence of their own and you accept they exist, wouldn't knowledge be stronger than faith? How can you force someone to worship you? Is it enough to simply kneel, or do you need to enter a specific state of mind? Is it enough to look up in the sky and beg for something? Do they separate prayer from worshipping?
    What about those suffering from schizophrenia in these fictional worlds? Shouldn't their creations be real as well? If you write such a story, make sure nobody can make jokes about them the same way the "How it should have ended"-videos on youtube jokes about movies.
    There are many fantasy authors today that feel that everything has to be balanced, and refer to the real world fact that energy can only be converted, not destroyed or created? But how many have played with the idea of going through the whole chain of events by using the motto "follow the energy"? I actually questioned that approach on reddit (or more correctly, I made a comment about how some seemed to assume it should be mandatory in magic systems), and got the same kind of response there as your post, only the opposite one. And of course I was downvoted for daring to ask questions.
    (The only exception is if you are writing stories for small children. Then you can allow yourself pretty much.)

    It was also a reference to the real world. People are talking about believing, but how many can give a proper explanation about what it really is? One guy I knew said "I believe the world is going to end in a giant flood". Why? He had no idea, he just believed it. And probably assumed that was all he needed to say.

    By the way, don't put too much trust in what Yoda says.
    Last edited by Banner; 07-10-2019 at 06:18 AM.

  9. #9
    Oni of the Ash Moon Ronin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Banner View Post
    Of all the countless stories written about the topic, nobody has even tried to come up with a pseudo-explanation for how faith and worshipping actually works. Perhaps it exist, but I have never seen it. Especially these days when so-called hard or scientific fantasy has become very popular.
    It is also a misconception that just because something is fantasy or sci-fi, you can get away with everything. Everything needs to follow its own logic and consistency. For instance; why can a group who believe in an entity make this entity come to life, but characters in cartoons and comic books does not. Even if children, which presumably can give life to imaginary friends, pay just as much attention to their own favorites. How do you focus all your love on an object? That require that you are able to turn on and off certain emotions by will. Nobody can do it. If humans are able to do that in a fictional story, it should be pointed out. And how exactly do you worship someone or something? Do you need to believe to do so? If they already have an existence of their own and you accept they exist, wouldn't knowledge be stronger than faith? How can you force someone to worship you? Is it enough to simply kneel, or do you need to enter a specific state of mind? Is it enough to look up in the sky and beg for something? Do they separate prayer from worshipping? There are many fantasy authors today that feel that everything has to be balanced, and refer to the real world fact that energy can only be converted, not destroyed or created? But how many have played with the idea of going through the whole chain of events by using the motto "follow the energy"? I actually questioned that approach on reddit (or more correctly, I made a comment about how some seemed to assume it should be mandatory in magic systems), and got the same kind of response there as your post, only the opposite one. And of course I was downvoted for daring to ask questions.
    (The only exception is if you are writing stories for small children. Then you can allow yourself pretty much.)

    It was also a reference to the real world. People are talking about believing, but how many can give a proper explanation about what it really is? One guy I knew said "I believe the world is going to end in a giant flood". Why? He had no idea, he just believed it. And probably assumed that was all he needed to say.

    By the way, don't put too much trust in what Yoda says.
    So your problem with Fiction is that its too Fiction-ie? And need needs to have a full explanation of how it works to bog down the story and, stories should work on a fixed set of mandatory systems.

    Anyway, I always thought it was funny when some random hero takes out like 12 people in hand to had combat and 13th guy rushes in like he is gonna be the done to get it done and gets knocked down with one hit.
    Last edited by Moon Ronin; 07-09-2019 at 01:21 PM.
    Surely not everybody was kung fu fighting

  10. #10
    Spectacular Member Banner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    So your problem with Fiction is that its too Fiction-ie? And need needs to have a full explanation of how it works to bog down the story and, stories should work on a fixed set of mandatory systems.
    No. This was about faith and worshipping. It is just an easy way out; "we get our powers from being worshipped" and "gods are real but created by humans through faith". Like that is all you need. Maybe someone have accepted the challenge and tried to do something more about it, and I just haven't heard about the story yet. And read again what I said about my post on reddit.

    But as I mentioned in the main post; these are my personal preferences and what I feel about it. I have no problems that others have different opinions (even if some may have problems with my opinions).

    "Anyway, I always thought it was funny when some random hero takes out like 12 people in hand to had combat and 13th guy rushes in like he is gonna be the done to get it done and gets knocked down with one hit."

    Could have been an interesting twist.

  11. #11
    Ol' Doogie, Circa 2005 GindyPosts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Banner View Post
    In fantasy, and to some degree in science fiction, we have the idea that religious faith and worshipping is itself a power. If you believe in something strong enough, or there is enough followers, things can come to life. Like the great Decreator. In American Gods there are gods who exist because people believe in them and worship them. In Stargate SG-1, which I otherwise liked a lot, there are energy beings that require energy created from worshipping.
    And I think in Terry Pratchett's Discworld faith is even a resource that you can put in the bank. In Grant Morrison's Happy imaginary friends are real because children believe in them, and everybody seems to have one (personally I never had an imaginary friend, and I have never heard about anyone else who had either). There is even a hint of it in Stephen King's stories, like Salem's Lot. A crucifix only works against vampires if you believe it will work. There are a lot of other examples out there. .
    That was pretty much the plot of Dragon Quest VII. The Almighty was in a constant battle with Orgodemir, and then people started losing faith in the Almighty, which weakened him. When you start the game, you know nothing about this since your island is the only island in the world left, but as time goes on, it allows for everything to renew itself as the old islands were restored.

  12. #12
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    The trilogy. It's truly stupid. It's a gimmick based upon The Lord of the Rings which isn't even a trilogy - it's one novel that the publisher decided to market in three parts.

  13. #13
    Invincible Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldSchoolJadedFan View Post
    The trilogy. It's truly stupid. It's a gimmick based upon The Lord of the Rings which isn't even a trilogy - it's one novel that the publisher decided to market in three parts.
    Because $$$$ and $$$$
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  14. #14
    Boisterously Confused
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    Quote Originally Posted by Banner View Post
    Of all the countless stories written about the topic, nobody has even tried to come up with a pseudo-explanation for how faith and worshipping actually works. Perhaps it exist, but I have never seen it. Especially these days when so-called hard or scientific fantasy has become very popular.
    You should try Jim Butcher's Harry Dresden novels. He does some of what you're talking about.

    I have to echo others here tho in being a bit perplexed: as it seems like you don't like core characteristics of the genre, why are you subjecting yourself to it?

  15. #15
    Spectacular Member Banner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    You should try Jim Butcher's Harry Dresden novels. He does some of what you're talking about.

    I have to echo others here tho in being a bit perplexed: as it seems like you don't like core characteristics of the genre, why are you subjecting yourself to it?
    Interesting. Another issue I have with believing is that you are supposed to have blind faith. You are not allowed to doubt or feel scared or nervous, you have to be completely convinced. But of course you will feel a sense of fear that your faith may not the pure or strong enough. And that fear leads to a self-fulfilled prophecy. These are the things that are beyond most humans' control.

    Fantasy is much more than faith, worshipping, evil villains and prophecies. But a story can be good even if there is a prophecy in it, despite your dislike for the concept of prophecies. I don't mind anyone being pure evil for no specific reason as long as we are talking about classics, like Sauron in Lord of the Rings. But these days it has become a cliché that authors should avoid if possible. And I feel most of fantasy don't depend on the concept that you have to believe in something for it to work.

    (Luckily Doom Patrol is much more than cults worshipping their own creations. I saw American Gods because I had heard so much good about the show. Some of the scenes were not bad, but as a whole I wasn't too excited, and have not bothered with season 2. Stargate SG-1 is also about way more than the relatively few episodes dedicated to the concept we're talking about here. So far I have not read any of the Discworld books. As for Salem's Lot; you don't throw your whole ice cream in the trash just because you don't like the cherry on top.)

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