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  1. #1
    Ol' Doogie, Circa 2005 JDogindy's Avatar
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    Default Does anyone hate MCU films?

    I mean, just general hatred of the Marvel Cinematic Universe? The excessive use of comedy during scenes where you need to lay off the yuks? The disposable antagonists? The way the films are shot in a uniform pattern?

    I consider myself one of the card carrying members of this group, after originally finding embarrassment in feeling more enjoyment out of watching DC movies.

    This isn't me trying to be a hipster for the sake of being counterculture, or one of those subhuman slobs who are hating on films since I apparently find the notion of movies using women and minorities in positions of power and influence to be alarming to my masculinity and my dick, but rather coming from someone looking at this from a perspective of this being a long term project and wondering what is so special about everything.

    Naturally, there will be those coming in, and trying to destroy my arguments, but I'm not making these to say these films suck; I'm making these arguments to explain why I personally can't stand them.

    1. The Villains. This is my big one, and has always been, and always will be. So, it's going to be the bulk of the argument. For one, they die. A lot. In your standard cinema structure, the antagonist usually dies at the end of the film since there is no intention of them redeeming themselves as a means of getting their karmic retribution for all their wrongdoings throughout the film, and in the comic book movies from Tim Burton's Batman all the way through the Sam Raimi Spider-Man trilogy and even The Dark Knight Rises, they adhered to this formula in spite of comic books screwing around with characters cheating certain death given that unlike the comics medium (though there have been villains in Marvel and DC that have died and have stayed dead), films have to be finite and conclusive unless you plan on doing sequels, and even then, you rarely carry on the villain of the film unless said villain is the attraction (see virtually any horror franchise). I mean, pre-MCU, one exception to this rule was the Scarecrow from Batman Begins, who was reduced to a cameo in The Dark Knight since, well, that film had a much bigger antagonist. The reason why I am such a stickler and an asshole about this villainous death count is that the MCU is meant to be this overarching franchise meant to carry on for years and years, much like its comic book counterpart, and it would be like introducing an antagonist in each issue, and then killing the villain at the end of the issue, which while not sounding like the most apt comparison, typically has that feeling. The other problem I dealt with is that the villains fall into one of two categories; either they exist just to get punched, or they are fortunate enough to motivate the plot. While people can gush about villains motivating the plot, I personally believe only a small portion have been lucky enough to do so. Loki was the first one as he did something unheard of in the MCU; he lived through his first movie, and was used as the main threat in the first Avengers film, where even after the Avengers team was able to take him down, he was still kicking, and it wasn't until his run-in with Thanos that finally killed him. As much as I complained about Thanos's accomplishments ultimately meaning nothing in the grand scheme (which I still do believe, change my mind) given how the majority of Endgame is about reversing his actions and ensuring he doesn't exist anymore, the fact that he loomed for so long and was given the opportunity to be given his glory helped establish something. The only other villain remotely capable of being considered in this class I believe was Killmonger, who unfortunately, is in the "one and done" class, as his character was a villain, but rather than just being homicidal for the sake of evil's sake, his character was that of one who approached it from a world-weary perspective and didn't want to be pushed around. The vast majority of the other villains, however, fall into the former, where they exist as punchable objects that show up, make a comment or two about why they are doing their thing, get into the big fight, and die. Malekith, Ronan, Yellowjacket, Hela (yeah, she's a constant gush for the latter, but I firmly consider her as merely a punchable object), Red Skull... they don't get much time to establish themselves as threats, and the ones that remotely do only do so in that obligatory sense that reminds me of some Japanese shonen series where our hero has to get a power boost to take out this new villain. In comics, it's okay to focus more on the heroes, in my opinion, as they are the ones to drive the story, while the villains serve as the obstacle, while in the films, the opposite occurs; the villains are the ones that drive the story, as they are the ones that create the conflict, and if you have a bland or perishable baddie waiting (or even a good baddie that you know ain't leaving this film alive), it just drives me away from watching.

    2. Inappropriate comedy. Comedy is subjective, I know. That being said, I feel like comedic situations during scenes of drama or intense conflict take you away from the immersion and are only there for memetic purposes so the average person can go on Twitter or Facebook and go, "I liked it when they broke up the action and made the joke". Now, having a film with too little comedy winds up giving you a depressing slog, but again; if you have a serious moment, don't break up the moment just to sneak in a bit of humor to loosen the tension. Ideally, you use the comedy after the serious part is over to soften the blow of what just happened.

    3. Processed factory cinematography. The films are generally shot the same way, and produced the same way. I look at this more of a Disney decision than of those directing the films, as Bob Iger has made it clear he wants to minimize the risk in blockbuster films. And yet, it's due to this that these films just wind up giving that same monotony that "if you've seen one, you've seen them all".

    I don't know; I'm probably just some ignorant rube who doesn't appreciate fine art.

  2. #2
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    "Does anyone else" questions always have the same answer: yes. Plenty of people don't like these movies. You can find several of them on the X-Books, Spider-Man and DC boards on this forum for instance.

  3. #3
    Astonishing Member Tuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDogindy View Post
    2. Inappropriate comedy. Comedy is subjective, I know. That being said, I feel like comedic situations during scenes of drama or intense conflict take you away from the immersion and are only there for memetic purposes so the average person can go on Twitter or Facebook and go, "I liked it when they broke up the action and made the joke". Now, having a film with too little comedy winds up giving you a depressing slog, but again; if you have a serious moment, don't break up the moment just to sneak in a bit of humor to loosen the tension. Ideally, you use the comedy after the serious part is over to soften the blow of what just happened.
    Comic relief is a long-standing tool in drama. It's perfectly legitimate. And some of what you're criticizing falls under that.

    There is a problem in the MCU with bathos.


  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuck View Post
    Comic relief is a long-standing tool in drama. It's perfectly legitimate. And some of what you're criticizing falls under that.

    There is a problem in the MCU with bathos.

    Yeah. That's one of my favorite videos on what was wrong with Marvel movies post-Avengers 1. Although I do think he misses the point of some jokes. Like in the scene where the Guardians all stand up to show they're going to fight. Rocket Raccoon makes a joke because he is not on board with this and isn't as ready to risk his life as the others are. It's an important character moment because it shows that he isn't there yet and is only standing up because he's been shamed into doing so. It takes a whole other movie for him to reach that point.

  5. #5
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuck View Post
    Comic relief is a long-standing tool in drama. It's perfectly legitimate. And some of what you're criticizing falls under that.

    There is a problem in the MCU with bathos.

    Yeah, I've kind of had this same problem.

    Especially with Ragnarok.

  6. #6
    New old guy Surf's Avatar
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    Hate is a strong word. I feel hate comes from 2 sources, 1- contempt bred out of exception for a perceived better way of doing or behaving some other way or 2- Sheer jealousy. Out of what looks another way, seems acceptable but where the principal doesn't and couldn't have the same outcomes. People can hate black folks in many cases because of what perceptions they have regarding what they are able to accomplish, do and feel under the harshest of conditions. Contrasting with one own life with more accesses and permissions, they are not able to produce half of what they perceive said black folks have in terms of whatever.

    I'm a Colts fan. I hate the Titans, I don't wanna hear shit about them so I'm in hate box 1. The Tennessee Titans are hardly the MCU so I'm not real sure which leans you one war or another as far as the actual origins of the hate stem.


    Quote Originally Posted by JDogindy View Post
    coming from someone looking at this from a perspective of this being a long term project and wondering what is so special about everything.
    So special is relative. I have a fondness for comic characters, I did through long boxes still looking for old issues, love doing that. Even if I didn't and went straight to the new stuff, that is which the MCU emanated from. That part at the root is still kinda special. Beyond that it's a serialized set of movies. If you hate all movie serials going back to the black and white days of The Shadow and Captain Marvel and Batman, that's fine but the MCU is fruit from the same tree. I miss MCU (and DC) movies in chunks, maybe I catch up on streaming, maybe I buy a physical or more than likely I don't get to it at all but part of me still finds it novel to see Iron Man take off in the air on a big screen. Granted that was way cooler before the all the movies are filmed on a green screen but whatev. I feel you can be a part of a fan community of capes without ever going to the movies so it seems out of place to take aim and shoot so broadly.


    Quote Originally Posted by JDogindy View Post
    1. The Villains.2. Inappropriate comedy. 3. Processed factory cinematography.

    I don't know; I'm probably just some ignorant rube who doesn't appreciate fine art.
    For sake of argument let's say pretty much most movies DON'T suffer from the above (they can and do). Homogenized or standardized entertainment is not up front and center to everybody. Growing up in the broadcast TV days and going into the VHS days, I wasn't a Disney kid. I'm not a Disney adult. One of the parents my kid goes to daycare with, her brother married a chick who insisted they get hitched in Disney World and he did it and she's a grown ass women(again, perception). Fuck... I wouldn't want to even be invited to something like that. I'm more of a Hasbro kind of guy fwiw. Someone invites me to a function set to look like Cybertron... ehhh, I'd think about it pretty tough. So, I would argue that the real focus of your ire is the Disney sheen. I feel you've said something akin in the past, forgive me if I'm wrong. If that is the case than I can rock with it on some level. Having that suit tailored to the Marvel brand is tough no doubt. Disney is the poster of all ills of corporate overlord conglomeration. Hate is a strong word, I'd ask where does it really come from.
    Beefing up the old home security, huh?
    You bet yer ass.

  7. #7
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    It’s like Burger King or McDonalds. They are very generic, consistent, fill you up at the time, but you know it’s not the best and too much isn’t a good thing..

  8. #8
    BANNED Beaddle's Avatar
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    I don't hate MCU movies, I enjoy most of their films. they are entertaining but at the same time they are very juvenile and immature. Doesn't mean that constitutes hate if you know what is intended. I think hate only happens if you were mislead into a film or a film got so much hype and you were disappointed.

  9. #9
    Ol' Doogie, Circa 2005 JDogindy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surf View Post
    Hate is a strong word. I feel hate comes from 2 sources, 1- contempt bred out of exception for a perceived better way of doing or behaving some other way or 2- Sheer jealousy. Out of what looks another way, seems acceptable but where the principal doesn't and couldn't have the same outcomes. People can hate black folks in many cases because of what perceptions they have regarding what they are able to accomplish, do and feel under the harshest of conditions. Contrasting with one own life with more accesses and permissions, they are not able to produce half of what they perceive said black folks have in terms of whatever.

    I'm a Colts fan. I hate the Titans, I don't wanna hear shit about them so I'm in hate box 1. The Tennessee Titans are hardly the MCU so I'm not real sure which leans you one war or another as far as the actual origins of the hate stem.
    I hear that argument a lot, that saying "hate" is a strong term and that it does come from a place of jealously or deep-seated contempt. I don't feel jealous about the success of the films. They operate on a formula, and the formula works. I just don't happen to care for the formula. I said I admitted that I like DC movies, but that doesn't make me a DC fanboy, as I absolutely hate Man of Steel, Suicide Squad, and Batman vs. Superman from this decade, and find Justice League interesting but flawed, with the key issue being that Warner Bros. (like so many studios) deciding to put all their eggs into the "expanded universe" basket, expecting that people would be interested in exploring more of the world and then wondering what happened when people weren't interested in the end result, like how Universal's "Retro Monsters" universe effectively died after one film.


    For sake of argument let's say pretty much most movies DON'T suffer from the above (they can and do). Homogenized or standardized entertainment is not up front and center to everybody. Growing up in the broadcast TV days and going into the VHS days, I wasn't a Disney kid. I'm not a Disney adult. One of the parents my kid goes to daycare with, her brother married a chick who insisted they get hitched in Disney World and he did it and she's a grown ass women(again, perception). Fuck... I wouldn't want to even be invited to something like that. I'm more of a Hasbro kind of guy fwiw. Someone invites me to a function set to look like Cybertron... ehhh, I'd think about it pretty tough. So, I would argue that the real focus of your ire is the Disney sheen. I feel you've said something akin in the past, forgive me if I'm wrong. If that is the case than I can rock with it on some level. Having that suit tailored to the Marvel brand is tough no doubt. Disney is the poster of all ills of corporate overlord conglomeration. Hate is a strong word, I'd ask where does it really come from.
    The Disney aspect is one large part of it. I mean, when I was growing up, I didn't care for the Disney brand as a kid. That's kind of one way the corporation likes to get people to become consumers for life, by having them start young by investing into their products, but for whatever reason, I did not like the "Disney formula". The vintage movies done by Walt and the Nine Old Men during the company's salad days and it's first prime didn't hook me in, and the movies of the 90s that Michael Eisner helped bring the company back from the brink as an antiquity and into a juggernaut, which was the decade I was a child, either frightened me or bored me. For whatever reason, the groups I was interested in were those that tended to spoof the establishment. Now, today, that kid who was turned off by Disney grew up to be a cynical adult who isn't as interested in Disney's conglomeration and manifest destiny, considering that I no longer have the interest in things I once had now that they're now under the Mouse Ears. I mean, Star Wars, for example. I don't like the Sequel Trilogy just as much as the MCU, but unlike the MCU, the issues tend to boil down to how TFA was majorly a shot-for-shot remake of A New Hope and TLJ being TLJ, not to mention the Expanded Universe becoming non-canon Legends and something that's only used to cherry pick assets and not explored as a testing ground for new writers before working on the actual stuff.

    That being said, I wanted to explore my disdain from a technical perspective and not just from a corporate perspective, as this project started before Marvel was bought, with the Disney backing and resources allowing them to go all-in with the long game. My issue, though, is every time I wonder about this, do I dislike these films because they're made by Disney, or in spite of it? Am I being too hard on the films for having impossible standards, or is it due to me just not being the kind of person who is a moviegoer to begin with? I practically fold whenever I explore this, knowing the responses I will get, and yet it just amazes me how whenever a new MCU film comes out, I just groan and roll my eyes at it, like an internal defense mechanism.

  10. #10
    Astonishing Member Powerboy's Avatar
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    The obvious answer to the title question is: Yes. Someone hates them. There are plenty of people who hate them. You could ask the reverse question: Is there anyone who loves them? Yes. Plenty of people. It's ironic that I finally watched Spiderman: Homecoming just before I read this because spoilers:
    The Vulture has real motives for what he does to the point that I am not entirely sure I consider him the villain and think he may be right that Stark, like any rich guy, doesn't even think about the fact that he's destroying other people's livelihoods by just taking over and I wish that had been explored more or that he had been confronted with it. There was also the fact that Spiderman comes across like, well, Spiderman. Where Iron-Man, Batman and now even Superman in the movies kill people and IM and BM seem to do it without even a thought or a questioning of it, Spider-Man saves his villain even at the risk of exposure. And, again, is Adrian Toomes really even the villain?
    end of spoilers

    I sincerely hope that what I said in spoilers does become a new/ old direction for the Marvel heroes on the big screen. But they have their popcorn elements and their more meaningful elements and, yes, I know, the jokes. But they seem to work for most people and temper the drama just right a lot of the time. Not in Ragnarok obviously but most of the time.
    His name is CAPTAIN MARVEL.

  11. #11
    King of Wakanda Midvillian1322's Avatar
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    Of course there are people who hate the MCU that's a silly question to ask. Just on this forum I can think of two posters off the top of my head who literaly hate every MCU movie ever but continue to watch them and them comment how it's another awful MCU movie when a new one comes out.

    Another thing I find silly is the constant talking point of people who passionately hate the MCU that the masses who love them are wrong. We are brainwashed and just think they are good movie but it's a trick. Marketing and some magic Marvel formula twist are brains and make us think the movies are soemthing more then they are. Instead of just accepting the truth that for whatever reason these movie arent for you. You can complain the comedy is objectively bad when way more people will argue its not. The CGI is awful but way more people think its great(Yes I've seen some bad CGI in the MCU but the good outways the bad by alot compared to some other big franchises. Just saw Far From Home and it was beautiful looking move), that they are unfaithful adaptions but one of the biggest praises about the MCU is how they capture the essence of they're characters for these adaption. I can keep going but the point is Yes people hate it. Probaly way more people then you think. Which is fine they arent for you they're are plenty other movies out there too watch. But most of the complaints about these movie are presented as objective truths and the masses would disagree.

    I really dont see how this thread can be beneficial to any real conversation just change the title to People who hate the MCU. And then let people who dislike the MCU voice theyrr opinion about stuff with like minded members without people ganging up on them. But I'm pretty sure they'res a Reddit somewhere for that exact thing.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midvillian1322 View Post
    Of course there are people who hate the MCU that's a silly question to ask.
    On this forum it may seem like a silly question, but given how Marvel movies are received when they come out and how they do at the box office, one could think that they're universally loved. The various movie fan/critic sites on youtube that I watch all seem to love the MCU unabashedly--they couldn't be more pro-Marvel/Disney if they were being paid to be. In a world where everyone loves the Marvel movies, someone who doesn't is likely to question their own response and wonder if they should be loving them, too.

  13. #13
    Astonishing Member Starter Set's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    On this forum it may seem like a silly question, but given how Marvel movies are received when they come out and how they do at the box office, one could think that they're universally loved
    They are appreciated for what they are, Hollywood pop-corn movies. That's what people are expecting from them, nothing more really, and that's what Disney delivers. (in a very efficient manner, commercially speaking)

    I don't think it really says a hell lot about how much the Marvel and Disney brands are "loved" but it does say something about the good reputation Disney has built to itself when it comes to action movies, each new movie surfing on the success of the previous one.

  14. #14

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    As movies, no.

    As a cultural phenomenon kinda. I would prefer more historical epics and just other kind of movies getting that spotlight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Starter Set View Post
    They are appreciated for what they are, Hollywood pop-corn movies. That's what people are expecting from them, nothing more really, and that's what Disney delivers. (in a very efficient manner, commercially speaking)

    I don't think it really says a hell lot about how much the Marvel and Disney brands are "loved" but it does say something about the good reputation Disney has built to itself when it comes to action movies, each new movie surfing on the success of the previous one.

    Thse are adventure or action and adventure movies.

  15. #15
    Mighty Member electr1cgoblin's Avatar
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    They got some things very right. Captain America and Iron Man, both in casting and largely as written, are pitch perfect. I never, never warmed to Ruffalo as Banner/Hulk, or Renner as Hawkeye. On the fence on Scarlet as Widow; she did...OK, but that's about it. Hemsworth did well enough, but they wrote the character so inconsistently and never really understood how to make him regal, hot headed, loyal and yet still intelligent.

    Aside from Loki and Thanos, their villains have been very underwhelming. And yeah, killing most of them off doesn't help.

    I grow very weary of the increasingly "goofy" tone they have. GotG and its success has resulted in Thor being a drunken, de powered clown. Humor in the right places is great, but they've gone way overboard IMO. No, it didn't ruin Endgame, but it did seem weird that there was so much jokey jokey given the situation they were all in. Ant Man should be the comic relief, maybe some snark from Stark, but other than that, let's honor the very, very serious events that led up to this film.

    I have never liked the way the heroes looked. Yeah, I understand having Hawkeye wear his purple eye mask might be a bit much, but between the dark colors and the demystified costumes, I think they kind of "grounded" themselves out of a lot of majesty and grandeur. Comics are larger than life, but they often missed that point in the translation to screen.

    I do think they did a wonderful job of making their heroes imperfect and yet admirable people you really rooted and felt for. Without that nothing else matters, to me.

    I've long said that most of these stories require much, much more time than they were given. Four movies to tell the whole rich history of the Avengers? Three for Cap? No way. A season long mini series on TV would probably have been the best bet for most of these stories, but again, I know the creators have to work within the framework they were given.

    Certainly, whatever they did worked. And I'm definitely glad I lived long enough to experience it. That doesn't mean everything's perfect, though; and what are forums like this if not places to dream?

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