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  1. #61
    FF purist/snob CaptCleghorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    Given that Kirby created both, not really that much of a stretch. The thing the Challengers and FF had that were particularly close was the 4-elements theme. I will grant you the point about the GF and annoying kid brother.
    Depending on how much input Kirby had on the cast. Considering the FF cast was EXACTLY the same as Sea Devils and Rip Hunter, and a set of parents away from Cave Carson, the stretch of a "four elements" theme seems weak. Me, I'm going with the huge blinking neon lights of the first two and the solid neon of Cave Carson.

    About the only advantage the Challs had in being THE FF inspiration was the variety of adventures where the other three teams were limited in adventure scope. Also, keep in mind the FF had underground, time travel, and undersea fights in their first five issues. I remain far from convinced.

  2. #62
    Astonishing Member Güicho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptCleghorn View Post
    Seems silly to assume Challs were the complete inspiration for FF
    "Complete"? Who said or assumed that, but you?
    Last edited by Güicho; 08-03-2019 at 06:31 PM.

  3. #63
    FF purist/snob CaptCleghorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Güicho View Post
    "Complete"? Who said that?
    LOL Nobody suggest or assumed that was the complete inspiration but you.
    Like others Kirby was pulling form many sources for inspiration, and reworking ideas, also including Doc Savages crew, and more.
    Listing one source doesn't mean or suggest it's the extent of it.
    I agree the family dynamic looks lifted from the Sea Devils, and others.
    But it's obvious he was also reworking some ideas from Challengers. Especially where Rocky falls back to earth with the four powers.

    Zorro is sourced for Batman, but you can also clearly see the Shadow (which Kane and Finger took a full story from), the Phantom, Sherlock Holmes and McCulley' (aka C.K.M. Scanlon)'s "The Bat" origin, and more!

    So again, who said it was the complete inspiration?
    That would be anyone who keeps on and on about the Challs and the FF. What you have for similarities are a team of four. You have a SINGLE story where one member gets powers The powers are similar to the FF's powers, but different enough for some disbelief. Plus those powers weren't exactly exclusive to Rocky, or the FF.

    If the one Rocky with powers story is supposed inspiration, then the underground adventures, underwater adventures, and time travel fro the first five issues of FF as inspiration. Were the Challs an inspiration? Sure, but down on the list and using them as THE example presents a false impression.

    Or it was an alternative to JLA as Stan Lee has said. The covers are awfully similar as has been noted by people.




  4. #64
    Astonishing Member Güicho's Avatar
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    (*among other things, in case Cleghorn still doesn't understand listing one source doesn't mean or suggest it's the extent of it.)

    Batman: First appearance Detective Comics #27 1939, origin told Detective Comics #33 1939

    *The Bat: 1934 Popular Detective pulp C.K.M. Scanlon (apparent pseudonym of Johnston McCulley, creator of Zorro); Stories The Bat Strikes ... Shadow of the Bat... and more:
    Detective Dawson Clade goes under cover disguised (hood, and billowing trench coat) as "The Bat", uses typical pulp era gas powered gadgets, leaves "Bat" mark on the criminals he captures, allies with the reluctant(at first) Commissioner Jim Burdoon.
    Origin, as he ponders how to reinvent himself:
    "He would not be able to appear in public unless he was carefully and cleverly disguised ...he must become a figure of sinister import to all .... A strange Nemesis that would eventually become a legendary terror to all of crimedom... In the shadows above his head there came a slithering, flapping sort of sound. As the creature hovered above the lamp for an instant it cast a huge shadow upon the cabin wall.

    "That's it!" exclaimed Clade aloud. "I'll call myself `The Bat!'" "
    Last edited by Güicho; 08-06-2019 at 05:28 AM.

  5. #65
    Extraordinary Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    FF-JLA or Challengers. Why not both. The Story is Goodman and Jack Liebowitz from DC were playing golf and Liebowitz told Goodman how well their team book, JLA, was selling. Goodman then told Stan to create a team book. Lee got together with Kirby, and Kirby brought elements from the Challengers (and other sources) into their new superhero team.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  6. #66
    Astonishing Member Güicho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    It was pointed out to me by Comic Book Historians that Flash Gordon wore an outfit in 1940 that's similar to Barry Allen's 1956 outfit:
    Yeah Alex Raymond would have been a significant go-to source for inspiration and visual guide for may of these young creators...



    Last edited by Güicho; 08-06-2019 at 06:00 AM.

  7. #67
    Boisterously Confused
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    Quote Originally Posted by Güicho View Post
    (*among other things, in case Cleghorn still doesn't understand listing one source doesn't mean or suggest it's the extent of it.)

    Batman: First appearance Detective Comics #27 1939, origin told Detective Comics #33 1939

    *The Bat: 1934 Popular Detective pulp C.K.M. Scanlon (apparent pseudonym of Johnston McCulley, creator of Zorro); Stories The Bat Strikes ... Shadow of the Bat... and more:
    Detective Dawson Clade goes under cover disguised (hood, and billowing trench coat) as "The Bat", uses typical pulp era gas powered gadgets, leaves "Bat" mark on the criminals he captures, allies with the reluctant(at first) Commissioner Jim Burdoon.
    Origin, as he ponders how to reinvent himself:
    Wasn't that pulp character also a model for Dr. Mid-Nite? Got blinded, got better and could see in the dark?

  8. #68
    Astonishing Member Güicho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post

    Quote Originally Posted by Güicho View Post

    *The Bat: 1934 Popular Detective pulp C.K.M. Scanlon (apparent pseudonym of Johnston McCulley, creator of Zorro); Stories The Bat Strikes ... Shadow of the Bat... and more:
    Wasn't that pulp character also a model for Dr. Mid-Nite? Got blinded, got better and could see in the dark?
    The character I cited is from 1934
    You are thinking of the Black Bat from 1939, Black Book Detective
    District Attorney Anthony Quinn becomes the Black Bat after being blinded and disfigured by acid, an operation is done as the bandages are removed Quinn finds that he can not only see normally but can even see perfectly in darkness too. Developed skills of the blind; sharper hearing, more sensitive touch, a better sense of smell, etc.

    Likely influences on as you indicate Doctor Mid-Nite as well as Batman villain Two-Face, and Dare Devil.
    And yes he shared a similar look and theme to Batman, who debuted that same year.

    [

    None of these characters emerged in a vacuum, and were heavily influenced by common reused tropes and ideas of
    the time.
    Last edited by Güicho; 08-06-2019 at 02:26 PM.

  9. #69
    Incredible Member Shalla Bal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptCleghorn View Post
    Don't forget Rip Hunter's crew with the exact same cast relations. One could throw Cave Carson in there as well, but the GF and pesky kid weren't related. The challs were far from what the FF ripped off.
    Yes, as I already noted in my post there were a "whole slew of such groups" . My point was that the proliferation of adventurer-quartets in the late 50s-early 60s was likely due to the immense popularity of Rocky Jones.

    Also, the smallish composition of these particular groups--most had 4 members, and often including an explicit family component such as siblings--probably brought to mind the ideal American family of that time (Eisenhower '50s): two parents, 2.5 (?) kids. So it was a fitting formula for those times.
    Last edited by Shalla Bal; 08-06-2019 at 12:03 PM.

  10. #70
    Incredible Member Shalla Bal's Avatar
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    Carl Burgos's Human Torch. I know Burgos's creation was work for hire and so it belonged to Timely/Marvel...but hell, Stan 'n' Jack even made Johnny Storm a blond, just like Jim Hammond.

    beautiful cover by Alex Schomburg
    Kirby's Torch
    Last edited by Shalla Bal; 08-06-2019 at 11:47 AM.

  11. #71
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    Firefly is a western in space. Just like Star Wars. It just didn't do it quite as successfully. Scifi certainly wasn't the first genre to feature translated cowboy stories, either.
    Every day is a gift, not a given right.

  12. #72
    Astonishing Member Güicho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    ...western in space.

    Scifi certainly wasn't the first genre to feature translated cowboy stories, either.
    Now that's a fun rabbit hole to go down.
    Look out Jaxxon!


    Star Hoppers (Marvel/Lucas' first expanded U tale), was a reworking of Magnificent Seven as a western in space, which in turn was a Western reworking of Seven Samurai.
    And then there was Battle Beyond the Stars!

    Serji-X Arrogantus was Eli Wallach's Calvera redesigned as comic artist Sergio Arragones.

    Further Galaxy Quest was a reworking of Magnificent Seven if they were actors mistaken for real Space heroes, which was somewhat a reworking of Three Amigos which is what if Magnificent Seven where three actors mistaken for three real Caballeros.
    And then A Bugs Life, which is the same story if they were all bugs...
    Last edited by Güicho; 08-06-2019 at 06:32 PM.

  13. #73
    What fresh hell is this? ChadH's Avatar
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    Nevermind...
    Last edited by ChadH; 08-06-2019 at 04:16 PM.
    The Cover Contest Weekly Winners Thread So much winning!!

    "When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis
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    "By all means, compare these s**t-heads to Nazis." - Mike Godwin referring to the protesters in Charlottesville.

  14. #74
    FF purist/snob CaptCleghorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Güicho View Post
    (*among other things, in case Cleghorn still doesn't understand listing one source doesn't mean or suggest it's the extent of it.)
    Well, if it's not the total extent, or even a major part of it, you really may want to come up with other sources of inspiration. But hey, keep going on about an unfortunate phrasing.

  15. #75
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    Fred Allen's radio show had yakkity-yak Senator Claghorn. Later, Looney Tunes had yakkity-yak Foghorn Leghorn. Then it turns out they were both inspired by a yakkity-yak sheriff on another radio show.

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