'Spider-Man' Sequel Filming Start Date Revealed; Jon Watts Confirmed To Return

[Frontier]

Peter was already active as a superhero when Tony approached him. It's why Tony approached him - because he saw videos of Peter in action.

Peter had already taken on the Spider-Man identity and was using his powers for good.

It's not completely uncommon for a sidekick character to be active in a Superhero identity before being "brought into the fold" or meet their mentor hero.

Certainly meeting Tony and getting involved with him seemed to legitimize Spider-Man to a degree he wasn't before when he was just a blur in Youtube videos.

As has been pointed out, there's a whole backstory to Peter becoming a hero that predates him ever meeting Tony. We just don't need a whole movie about it because there's already been two movies that cover the same basic information.

But without that backstory it seems to take a backseat to the dynamic and relationship with Iron Man.

Is there a whole backstory to Robin that shows him in action as Robin before meeting Batman? No. Robin is 100% Batman's sidekick. He becomes a superhero when Batman reveals his secret to him and brings him into the fold. Peter is his own man doing his own thing well before Tony enters the picture.

The difference with Robin is that he was a character deliberately introduced as a sidekick in Batman's story, while Spider-Man was introduced in what was basically an Avengers movie with Iron Man as a lead character, so it's definitely not one-to-one.

It's more like how some of the New Team Arrow members were introduced on Arrow, or members of Team Flash where established independent heroes get connected to a bigger name and end up as their sidekicks, or I guess Batgirl.

Peter in Homecoming operates on his own. He doesn't go on missions that Tony assigns him, he doesn't accompany Tony on nightly patrols of the city, he is completely on his own. Tony's involvement amounts to cleaning up messes that occur due to Peter's eagerness and inexperience.

And that's pretty common for modern mentor heroes in sidekick dynamics. Just because Tony allows Peter more autonomy doesn't automatically prevent the pair from falling into a sidekick/mentor dynamic whenever they're actually together.

When Peter screws up so bad that Tony thinks he shouldn't continue to keep using his tech, his solution isn't to take him under his wing and give him proper supervision and make sure he only fights at his side in order to keep a closer eye on him, his solution is to take his stuff back and walk away, assuming that Peter will call it a day.

And he feels he is right to do so because he feels like he has that kind of control and involvement in Peter's life. Batman's "fired" Robin a few times.

That he gets pulled into a cosmic adventure in IW and EG doesn't negate that decision. In comics, Spidey is regularly pulled into bigger conflicts.

But under entirely different contexts from MCU Spider-Man. Comic Spidey is much more independent and established then MCU Spider-Man, especially as a "Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man" and doesn't need to be "saved" by a suit and a mentor hero who he rebuffed in a prior movie and make that prior decision seem pointless.

Not at all. Unless you think that any story where there is an adult and a teenager is automatically following in the mold of Batman and Robin.

It doesn't need to be in the exact mold of Batman and Robin, but the hero/sidekick dynamic is an archetype that goes beyond Batman and Robin.

But they don't. Doctor Strange asking Tony if some young kid is his ward is a snarky dig at Tony, not asking whether Peter is Tony's "sidekick."

I don't think it was a snarky dig, Strange was just kind of incredulous at Tony bringing this kid who acts like you would expect from a "ward" or sidekick character.

[Arsenal]

The decision to turn down the Avengers in HC isn’t negated by IW/EG when Peter is clearly unwillingly being forced to become more than the “Friendly neighborhood” Spider-Man in this movie. His sentiment hasn’t changed, if anything it was only further reinforced. The only thing the Avengers movies demonstrated is that when there’s danger (no matter what kind), Peter will always run towards it instead of away from it when people’s lives are at risk. That’s it.

[Frontier]

The decision to turn down the Avengers in HC isn’t negated by IW/EG when Peter is clearly unwillingly being forced to become more than the “Friendly neighborhood” Spider-Man in this movie. His sentiment hasn’t changed, if anything it was only further reinforced. The only thing the Avengers movies demonstrated is that when there’s danger (no matter what kind), Peter will always run towards it instead of away from it when people’s lives are at risk. That’s it.

I think that would have better come across without the Iron Spider suit getting forced onto him, because at least then we just have it being his choice to get involved with the Infinity Stones fight rather then coming after he had put on the Tony Stark costume he didn't think he needed.

I guess it also doesn't help that with the way they've approached Spider-Man in these movies and how the MCU works we really aren't going to get much "Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man" after Homecoming. That all seems relegated to between-the-movie stuff like what The Avengers do when they're not coming apart at the seams.

[Arsenal]

I think that would have better come across without the Iron Spider suit getting forced onto him, because at least then we just have it being his choice to get involved with the Infinity Stones fight rather then coming after he had put on the Tony Stark costume he didn't think he needed.

I guess it also doesn't help that with the way they've approached Spider-Man in these movies and how the MCU works we really aren't going to get much "Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man" after Homecoming. That all seems relegated to between-the-movie stuff like what The Avengers do when they're not coming apart at the seams.

He chose to swung into a fight between Tony & giant alien, chased after a wizard, followed him into the upper atmosphere and snuck back onto the ship even after Tony tried to send him back. He even says “I can’t be the friendly neighborhood Spider-Man if there’s no neighborhood left to protect”. How does Peter getting the iron spider suit so he doesn’t die take away from any of that?

[Frontier]

He chose to swung into a fight between Tony & giant alien, chased after a wizard, followed him into the upper atmosphere and snuck back onto the ship even after Tony tried to send him back. He even says “I can’t be the friendly neighborhood Spider-Man if there’s no neighborhood left to protect”. How does Peter getting the iron spider suit so he doesn’t die take away from any of that?

Tony forcing it on him doesn't help (I know it was to save him, but still).

I would say that stuff would come off a lot better without the established Tony relationship because there wouldn't need to be that justification.

[Prof. Warren]

It's not completely uncommon for a sidekick character to be active in a Superhero identity before being "brought into the fold" or meet their mentor hero.

Peter didn't become Spider-Man because of Tony Stark.

He wasn't emulating Tony in order to gain Tony's attention.

And he never became Tony's sidekick.

Certainly meeting Tony and getting involved with him seemed to legitimize Spider-Man to a degree he wasn't before when he was just a blur in Youtube videos.

So? He becomes more famous. That tends to happen when you appear on a bigger stage.

In the comics themselves, Spidey has become more legitimized the more he rubbed shoulders with more heroes.

But without that backstory it seems to take a backseat to the dynamic and relationship with Iron Man.

Some fans can't comprehend that a major part of the Sony/Disney deal - really, THE major part - is that Spider-Man can finally be integrated into the Marvel U. That means in every movie created under this deal, we're going to see Peter interacting heavily with other MCU characters. It's kind of the whole fu*king point.

There were five previous Spider-Man films in which Peter was the sole hero in his universe. Making a deal like this means taking aggressive advantage of what it offers, not half-assing it or not even taking advantage at all. If Sony just wanted to keep having Spidey operating solo, they'd still be producing the movies themselves.

Fans need to get over this weird insecurity that some have about Peter sharing screen time with Iron Man or Nick Fury or whoever. It doesn't diminish Peter as a character. It doesn't make him a sidekick. It's supposed to be - shocking, I know - fun. Until the Sony/Disney deal, there's never been an opportunity for Spidey to be in the same world as his Marvel peers. This allows Spidey to play in that larger sandbox.

The difference with Robin is that he was a character deliberately introduced as a sidekick in Batman's story, while Spider-Man was introduced in what was basically an Avengers movie with Iron Man as a lead character, so it's definitely not one-to-one.

It's not a one to one at all. Because Robin is a sidekick to Batman and Peter is not one to Tony.

And that's pretty common for modern mentor heroes in sidekick dynamics. Just because Tony allows Peter more autonomy doesn't automatically prevent the pair from falling into a sidekick/mentor dynamic whenever they're actually together.

Peter is a kid still figuring things out while Tony is a seasoned, savvy adult. Peter looks up to Tony because Tony's older and more experienced. They're not equals. There's no way for them to have any other relationship than that of an experienced, older hero and a younger, more naive one. But that dynamic doesn't make them a team with Peter as Tony's sidekick. They have a friendship.

And he feels he is right to do so because he feels like he has that kind of control and involvement in Peter's life. Batman's "fired" Robin a few times.

He has control over his tech, not Peter. The only thing Tony does is take his stuff away.

He doesn't "fire" Peter. He just doesn't want him creating messes with his tech.

But under entirely different contexts from MCU Spider-Man. Comic Spidey is much more independent and established then MCU Spider-Man, especially as a "Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man" and doesn't need to be "saved" by a suit and a mentor hero who he rebuffed in a prior movie and make that prior decision seem pointless.

It's not pointless. Should Peter ignore a crisis unfolding right in front of him simply because he declined to join the Avengers earlier? No.

And the early comic Spidey was more independent than the MCU Spidey but this is telling a different story, in a different medium, in a different time.

Even by the time Bendis created Ultimate Spidey, Peter was portrayed as more of a kid than he ever seemed in the original books. The MCU is simply continuing that.

If you introduce a young kid into a mix of adult heroes, it's more useful from a dramatic standpoint to emphasize those youthful qualities in contrast to the adults around him.

[Michael Watkins]

this isn't going to feel like a Spider-man universe to me until JJ and/or Norman show up.

[Arsenal]

Tony forcing it on him doesn't help (I know it was to save him, but still).

I would say that stuff would come off a lot better without the established Tony relationship because there wouldn't need to be that justification.

You have to go out of your way to twist the context into something completely different than what is presented on screen for it to be an issue. The fact of the matter is that it doesn’t need to be justified because there is nothing to justify. Peter is only ever involved in that mess because he chose to be there.

[KROENEN]

this isn't going to feel like a Spider-man universe to me until JJ and/or Norman show up.

...or at least one mention of Ben.

[Frontier]

Peter didn't become Spider-Man because of Tony Stark.

He wasn't emulating Tony in order to gain Tony's attention.

And he never became Tony's sidekick.

And my point was that that doesn't necessarily negate that element, just that it doesn't preclude them from having a hero/sidekick dynamic and when Peter became Tony's "protege" he started sliding into that role a little.

I mean, with the way he relates to Tony and how they portray him I definitely think Iron Man was in his head when it came to how he saw himself as a Superhero to some degree. You can't really ignore that in a world where The Avengers are already established and Tony Stark/Iron Man is this big thing.

So? He becomes more famous. That tends to happen when you appear on a bigger stage.

But in the comics themselves, Spidey has become more legitimized the more he rubbed shoulders with more heroes.

I think it was from his own independent actions and career that legitimized him to the other heroes which in turn led to a more legit public rep (although MCU Spider-Man doesn't really have a bad rep to begin with). He's never really rubbed shoulders with other heroes the way he has with Iron Man in the MCU.

Some fans can't comprehend that a major part of the Sony/Disney deal - really, THE major part - is that Spider-Man can finally be integrated into the Marvel U.

So in every movie created under this deal, we're going to see Peter interacting heavily with other MCU characters. It's kind of the whole fu*king point.

There were five previous Spider-Man films in which Peter was the sole hero in his universe. Making a deal like this means taking aggressive advantage of what it offers, not half-assing it or not even taking advantage at all. If Sony just wanted to keep having Spidey operating solo, they'd still be producing the movies themselves.

I'm not advocating for no interactions with MCU heroes or to portray him in his own universe again, I'd just rather they stay truer to the text.

Fans need to get over this weird insecurity that some have about Peter sharing screen time with Iron Man or Nick Fury or whoever. It doesn't diminish Peter as a character. It doesn't make him a sidekick. It's supposed to be - shocking, I know - fun. Until the Sony/Disney deal, there's never been an opportunity for Spidey to be in the same world as his Marvel peers. This allows Spidey to play in that larger sandbox.

I like Spider-Man in a larger sandbox. I just don't enjoy it when it seems to be in terms of his relation to Iron Man and The Avengers and less on his own terms compared to, say, other MCU stars and I think the Iron Man relationship does diminish Spider-Man's standing to some degree.

It's not a one to one at all. Because Robin is a sidekick to Batman and Peter is not one to Tony.

Well, he's not a sidekick to Tony like Robin is to Batman because there are various ways of spinning that archetype.

Peter is a kid still figuring things out while Tony is a seasoned, savvy adult. Peter looks up to Tony because Tony's older and more experienced. They're not equals. There's no way for them to have any other relationship than that of an experienced, older hero and a younger, more naive one. But that dynamic doesn't make them a team with Peter as Tony's sidekick. They have a friendship.

I wouldn't say there's "no way," writers could write whatever kind of relationship between them as they want. Even with that specific dynamic there's probably a variety of different ways you could spin it compared to how the MCU handled it.

He has control over his tech, not Peter. The only thing Tony does is take his stuff away.

He doesn't "fire" Peter. He just doesn't want him creating messes with his tech.

I don't think that's any different from a hero taking away whatever costume or gear they gave their sidekick because they don't want them using it anymore.

It's not pointless. Should Peter ignore a crisis unfolding right in front of him simply because he declined to join the Avengers earlier? No.

I'm not saying he shouldn't either, just that the character arc doesn't jive as well with all that happening almost back-to-back for Spider-Man.

And the early comic Spidey was more independent than the MCU Spidey but this is telling a different story, in a different medium, in a different time.

Comic Spider-Man in general, or most versions of Spider-Man, are more independent then MCU Spider-Man.

Even by the time Bendis created Ultimate Spidey, Peter was portrayed as more of a kid than he ever seemed in the original books. The MCU is simply continuing that.

Holland is definitely probably the most believable take on what a kid as Spider-Man would be like.

He doesn't differentiate his personalities, he's bad with his secret identity, he's not exactly as good at fighting crime from the start, and he needs more adult supervision/assistance.

If you introduce a young kid into a mix of adult heroes, it's more useful from a dramatic standpoint to emphasize those youthful qualities in contrast to the adults around him.

I'm not really arguing against that. I'd just rather it be in a different way from how the MCU has handled it so far.

[Prof. Warren]

I mean, with the way he relates to Tony and how they portray him I definitely think Iron Man was in his head when it came to how he saw himself as a Superhero to some degree. You can't really ignore that in a world where The Avengers are already established and Tony Stark/Iron Man is this big thing.

Yes, all kinds of heroes existed in the MCU before Spider-Man. Peter wasn't specifically modeling himself after anybody.

I'm not advocating for no interactions with MCU heroes or to portray him in his own universe again, I'd just rather they stay truer to the text.

If you want the text, stick to the comics. Spider-Man is always changed when adapted to other media.

I like Spider-Man in a larger sandbox. I just don't enjoy it when it seems to be in terms of his relation to Iron Man and The Avengers and less on his own terms compared to, say, other MCU stars and I think the Iron Man relationship does diminish Spider-Man's standing to some degree.

It doesn't. Should we go over again why Spider-Man is different than other MCU characters?

Other MCU stars are owned by Marvel/Disney. Spider-Man isn't. So if Sony's going to allow Marvel to use him, Marvel has to make it worth Sony's while and deliver something that Sony couldn't do if they were making Spider-Man movies on their own.

I wouldn't say there's "no way," writers could write whatever kind of relationship between them as they want. Even with that specific dynamic there's probably a variety of different ways you could spin it compared to how the MCU handled it.

Yes, there are a variety of ways that anything can be spun. If something wasn't done to your preference, oh well.

Somebody's always looking to armchair quarterback creative decisions and offer their expert alternatives.

Comic Spider-Man in general, or most versions of Spider-Man, are more independent then MCU Spider-Man.

Does it really have to be explained again that MCU Spider-Man is naturally going to be more heavily involved with other characters and why that is?

I'm not really arguing against that. I'd just rather it be in a different way from how the MCU has handled it so far.

Well, you can't make everyone happy. And when the complaints are so often ridiculous, why would anyone even try?

[Frontier]

Yes, all kinds of heroes existed in the MCU before Spider-Man. Peter wasn't specifically modeling himself after anybody.

If you want the text, stick to the comics. Spider-Man is always changed when adapted to other media.

I'm not advocating for being exactly like the comics otherwise I would never watch any adaption ever but I think some adaptions are truer to the spirit of the comics they're adapting from then others, and I don't think much about the Iron Man relationship feels very "Spider-Man."

Somebody's always looking to armchair quarterback creative decisions and offer their expert alternatives.

Well, I've never considered myself an expert, just a passionate fan .

Does it really have to be explained again that MCU Spider-Man is naturally going to be more heavily involved with other characters and why that is?

I guess not, but I do think to some degree it weakens him compared to other portrayals of Spidey.

Well, you can't make everyone happy. And when the complaints are so often ridiculous, why would anyone even try?

I don't think my issues are all that ridiculous, but to each their own .

[Prof. Warren]

I don't think my issues are all that ridiculous, but to each their own .

When someone complains that Tony "forced" a suit onto Peter in IW when he was in fact saving his life, I think it shows how ridiculous the attitude towards Tony and Peter's relationship is with some fans - that any assistance from Tony is perceived as weakening Peter.

It will be interesting to see how Fury's relationship with Peter rubs fans.

[Zeitgeist]

I've never understood the complaints regarding Iron Man in Homecoming, being that
1) Peter has always looked up to elder geniuses throughout various media iterations from Curt Conners in one of the cartoons to Otto Octavius in the PS4 game, the only difference is that it's a hero this time
2) Peter has always looked up to elder statesmen superheroes: a) his hard-on for Cap in particular in the comics is hard to miss b) one of his first acts was trying to endear himself to the Fantastic Four, and c) there's Peter's Civil War ties to Tony

Wasn't one of the big things about Homecoming Stark telling him "not to be the first me, but be the first you"? Am I imagining things? I feel Far From Home will further that.

[boots]

count me as one of those crazies who likes to see how far a concept can be interpreted and reinterpreted. the best cover songs sound different to the original

ymmv on the boundaires of straying too far from the source material