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  1. #226
    Incredible Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    I think Superman Smashes The Klan would be better suited to animation and that Cavill is too old for the jeans n' t-shirt Superman. One of the things I liked best about that incarnation is that Rags drew like he was a kid barely out of his teens, just like Seigel & Shuster were when they created him.
    I think it'd be cool if an animated adaptation went with the look of being a modern Fleischer short.

  2. #227
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    It's because we expect older men to be less reckless and impulsive, and to think their actions through and consider the consequences in a more mature way. It's not the "working class" element so much as the "reckless" one. T-shirt/Golden Age Superman doesn't really hedge his bets; he just barrels into the bad guys without much thought for the ripple effects. Like him tearing down substandard housing and building new, awesome apartments....and not thinking about how he just increased the property's value to a point where the poor people he was trying to help can no longer afford those apartments.

    A young man doing that, people will accept and root for. Even if his actions end up counter to his goals, we'll cheer the effort. A older man doing the same thing, and people will say "Geez, he's kind of an idiot. He should have thought his actions through more."

    That's not to say an older t-shirt Superman couldn't work, we've got older guys in the real world who embody that "working class" vibe and Superman could too. But DC would have to dial back on the recklessness we usually associate with the t-shirt/Golden Age Superman.

    Anyone read Future's End? That had Superman in the t-shirt and a beard, trying to solve hunger in Africa or something right? That's the kind of "working class" vibe an older Superman could rock, but the guy who forces a confession from a businessman and ends up shooting his own mission in the foot? That's a job for a young foolish man.
    And those ripple effects? That's where you find some Good Stories, mate.

    Having working class ethos and taking direct action doesn't make anyone immature, and the reckless thing is being exaggerated. You take action and sometimes it gets messy, but that's okay. Superman is the star of ACTION COMICS. He's not a centrist paradigm, he's a boxer who keeps getting up no matter what.

    Nothing in life is devoid of repercussions, yet it's still really important to do more than punch Parasite around for the umpteenth time. I'd like to see something explore all of that, even the repercussions because that is good storytelling and that's what makes a narrative interesting.

    So let Superman take on the scam of luxury apartments. Let him get in oligarchal faces. Let him slam head first into racism and sexism. Inject a lil sci-fi in, and bam you have comic books or a superhero flick for 2020.

    I would be interested in Jordan playing President Superman....but I don't think know if right now is the time for a heroic politician. It might work in a "this is how it's supposed to be" kinda way, but the fact that Ellis lies to the public about his identity and has robots do his Presidential duties while he's off fighting Lex "I'm not racist!" Luthor seems like a dubious choice at the moment. A few years ago it would've worked great. A few years from now it might work great. Right now? It *might* work great or it might be a huge disaster.

    And Adam Driver....does not look like any Superman at all to me. Good actor, but a Superman? I dunno.....maybe? We've hard worse actors do decently with the role so I'd at least entertain the notion, but he does not look the part in my opinion.
    Nah, I'm talking about Michael B Jordan as Clark Kent/Superman, not President Superman. Driver and Jordan are both terrific actors with a real unique presence.
    Last edited by Flash Gordon; 06-03-2020 at 12:06 PM.

  3. #228
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    I think it'd be cool if an animated adaptation went with the look of being a modern Fleischer short.
    Yes! 100%!

  4. #229
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Again, it's not that you can't have an older jeans n' t-shirt Superman, it's that Morrison & Rags's version was designed to be explicitly younger than Superman is normally portrayed to be.

    Think about it like this, you can certainly do a middle aged Spider-Man, which Spiderverse did to great effect, but the character's themes work better when the character is a teenager/young adult.

    A jeans n' t-shirt Superman in his 30s is fine, but just not as interesting to me as one who's much younger and less experienced. That version of the character is so exciting because of that youth.

    This isn't to say you can't have an angry, crusading, anti-establishment Superman in his 30s, but he would be a different animal than what Morrison and Rags created.

  5. #230
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adekis View Post
    The only animated movies to get full toylines to my knowledge are Superman Doomsday and the post JLW movies based vaguely on the New 52. That's only because Doomsday was the start of the line of movies, and the JLW series was a whole little shared universe. Neither toyline was all that extensive.

    I remember when Morrison's Action Comics run was coming out, people assumed it was going to get an animated adaptation, and that the reason that Superman had different colors of t-shirts was because it'd make for good variant action figures.

    Neither development ever came to pass. There's still no action figure of the t-shirt Superman to this day. I know there's good reason to suspect that WB is in it for the cash-grab, but I don't think it's worthwhile to imagine that toys or a cartoon are inevitable. They aren't.
    Agree that neither are inevitable, but when I mentioned the toyline/DTV thing earlier, I meant movies that spun out of a toyline - JLA Adventures and Batman Unlimited.

  6. #231
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    Double post

    (Sorry mods, please delete)
    Last edited by Flash Gordon; 06-03-2020 at 06:02 PM.

  7. #232
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    So I finally read this the other day, and frankly I have nothing to add that hasn't already been said here - instant classic. One of the best Superman books ever. And I love Roberta/Lan-Shin Lee, great character.

    As for it being animated - doubt it. It doesn't fit the current DTV lines, most fans here are, "This needs to be theatrical or bust," which will never happen - and if it did it'd be Pixar level CGI which I personally don't want, there's charm to the 2D aspect here. So yeah, I have my doubts on it. I'd rather have a DTV that isn't as well animated but still nails the art style and keeps it 2D. My real preference would be a 2D theatrical, but that'll never ever happen.

  8. #233
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash Gordon View Post
    And those ripple effects? That's where you find some Good Stories, mate.
    You misunderstand brother.

    Yeah those ripple effects can be great. Hell Morrison's whole Action run was built off ripple effects. I don't want to get rid of those. What I'm saying is audiences are likely to expect an older Superman to think his actions through more, so you have to approach things differently.

    Sticking with the example of tearing down the slums and building new housing, yeah that's awesome and I love seeing it, and seeing Clark realize that he just made those people homeless by building apartments they can't afford is a great ripple effect/character growing moment. But we'd expect a 30-35 year old Superman to know better, we'd expect him to know that he'd drive up the property value, so the moment doesn't work as well as it would with a 20-25 year old Superman who doesn't think that far ahead.

    So a older working class Superman needs to do things differently. Instead of just tearing down the slums, maybe he intimidates the landlord into locking rent prices in place first, or forces a politician into backing some renters' protection policies, and *then* tears down the slums and builds nice new apartments. You can still get that pissed off, working class hero, but you gotta write him as being capable of thinking more than five minutes ahead because, as a 30+ year old man, there's no damn excuse not to (and the last thing Clark needs is audiences thinking he's a idiot). You can still get those ripple effects and unintended consequences, but they gotta be a little less obvious than "crap I built luxury apartments without realizing that Joe Average can't afford them on his mall security guard salary!" Maybe a viable ripple effect there is that, with new apartments built by the legendary Superman, wealthier people start to move into the "hot new neighborhood" and Clark has unintentionally opened the door to gentrification around town. Maybe he got renter's protections for the people in that one building, but now the whole neighborhood is turning yuppie.

    Nah, I'm talking about Michael B Jordan as Clark Kent/Superman, not President Superman. Driver and Jordan are both terrific actors with a real unique presence.
    They're good actors, and if they could play the role right then okay. But I don't think either of them look anything like Clark and, generally speaking, I don't like race bending; (most of the time) it's not representation, it's pandering and DC trying to have diversity without actually doing any real work for it. But a good actor in a good movie makes just about anything forgivable.
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  9. #234
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    There's also the possibility of someone like the Gambler coming up and exploiting Superman' help in building an apartment block, it doesn't even need to be luxury, the fact that Supes built it has a knock on effect of upping property value. I think a young Clark can do all of those things, make mistakes and be easily forgiven for not thinking ten steps ahead of his actions and the consequences thereof. A Superman in his 30s won't have that luxury with certain portions of the viewing public, they already have lofty expectations of him as it is. Young Superman can go hard on corruption and that's okay but older Superman has to fight smarter.

  10. #235
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    You misunderstand brother.

    Yeah those ripple effects can be great. Hell Morrison's whole Action run was built off ripple effects. I don't want to get rid of those. What I'm saying is audiences are likely to expect an older Superman to think his actions through more, so you have to approach things differently.

    Sticking with the example of tearing down the slums and building new housing, yeah that's awesome and I love seeing it, and seeing Clark realize that he just made those people homeless by building apartments they can't afford is a great ripple effect/character growing moment. But we'd expect a 30-35 year old Superman to know better, we'd expect him to know that he'd drive up the property value, so the moment doesn't work as well as it would with a 20-25 year old Superman who doesn't think that far ahead.

    So a older working class Superman needs to do things differently. Instead of just tearing down the slums, maybe he intimidates the landlord into locking rent prices in place first, or forces a politician into backing some renters' protection policies, and *then* tears down the slums and builds nice new apartments. You can still get that pissed off, working class hero, but you gotta write him as being capable of thinking more than five minutes ahead because, as a 30+ year old man, there's no damn excuse not to (and the last thing Clark needs is audiences thinking he's a idiot). You can still get those ripple effects and unintended consequences, but they gotta be a little less obvious than "crap I built luxury apartments without realizing that Joe Average can't afford them on his mall security guard salary!" Maybe a viable ripple effect there is that, with new apartments built by the legendary Superman, wealthier people start to move into the "hot new neighborhood" and Clark has unintentionally opened the door to gentrification around town. Maybe he got renter's protections for the people in that one building, but now the whole neighborhood is turning yuppie.
    Sure, being a working class hero doesn't equate to just smashing things with his fists all the time. I never said he needed to be an idiot. He can be a smart, intelligent, capable person and still be a working class icon and hero of the people. Superman is a Kryptonian and should operate at high levels of intellect anyway, which is another reason he'd stand in solidarity.

    I think the recklessness is being greatly exaggerated here, and I get if people just want the status quo Rock'm Sock'm Robots superhero stories (not saying you do, I know you and that you also enjoy good ole quality). I think we're on the same page. I don't want Superman to act like a 20 year old, I want the blue jeans and work boots wearing Springsteen Superman but he doesn't have to be rash or an idiot prick causing mass displacement through gentrification by building housing.

    I think that's where I'm taking offense here. The equating of 'working class hero' with 'reckless kid'. Or that being mature, means not taking action against wealthy tyrants. Or combatting racist policies head on. I'm not talking about Morrison's run here (which adressed the ripple effects but never really explored them)- I'm talking about something that uses that aesthetic but is totally new. Morrison's run was great, but it isn't the be all and end all of that idea. There is no weird age limit on being a member of the working class.

    Good stories are what people want.
    Last edited by Flash Gordon; 06-04-2020 at 10:40 AM.

  11. #236
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash Gordon View Post
    Sure, being a working class hero doesn't equate to just smashing things with his fists all the time. I never said he needed to be an idiot. He can be a smart, intelligent, capable person and still be a working class icon and hero of the people. Superman is a Kryptonian and should operate at high levels of intellect anyway, which is another reason he'd stand in solidarity.

    Good stories are what people want.
    So I guess we're saying the same thing but not understanding each other. lol

    Wow. I dunno man, I've been arguing current events and politics so much lately I must not be able to recognize it when people agree with me anymore.

    Should've known better; you and I agree far more often than not.

    And I hope you, and everyone else here, is keeping cool and staying safe.
    Higher, Faster, Further....More.

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  12. #237
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    So I guess we're saying the same thing but not understanding each other. lol

    Wow. I dunno man, I've been arguing current events and politics so much lately I must not be able to recognize it when people agree with me anymore.

    Should've known better; you and I agree far more often than not.

    And I hope you, and everyone else here, is keeping cool and staying safe.
    I hope you're staying safe too, brother. Everyone here.

    I get what you mean, I've been majorly on edge lately with everything going on. I figured we were saying the same thing, just in a round about way. We are usually vibing!
    Last edited by Flash Gordon; 06-04-2020 at 07:09 PM.

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