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  1. #16
    Astonishing Member Tuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiderClops View Post
    Spider-Man is as Marvel as you can get.
    Yeah, he's pretty much the least DC character at Marvel.

  2. #17
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    In terms of character, the most DC character is Captain America.

    In terms of the books, the consistent elements and traits of the books, you can make a case for Spider-Menace being more like a DC flagship.

  3. #18
    Mighty Member KangMiRae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Well, personally, I'd actually put Superman's rogues up there as well. Not as well-developed as Spider-Man's or Batman's, but I'd say in the same league. I mean, not to get too off-topic, but Superman counts Lex Luthor, General Zod, Brainiac, Bizarro, Mr. Mxyzptlk, Cyborg Superman, Mongul, Doomsday, Metallo, Parasite, Silver Banshee, and Darkseid among his foes, and there's more than that too. That...is impressive. So, I just sort of made the link that having an impressive rogues gallery made Spider-Man more like Batman and Superman, who just both happen to be DC heroes.

    Though, if anything, I think the fact that Batman, Spider-Man, and Superman all have well-developed villains speaks to the reality that, for several decades, those three were basically the holy trinity of superheroes. They were the three most popular superheroes in comics and pop-culture. So, obviously, DC and Marvel respectively wanted to invest more in those specific franchises.
    I admittedly don't know too much about Superman and his mythos, but I still recognize some of those names so I think I'm inclined to agree with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    So, I just sort of made the link that having an impressive rogues gallery made Spider-Man more like Batman and Superman, who just both happen to be DC heroes.
    Lol, exactly. Spider-Man's just up there with the greats.
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  4. #19
    Really Feeling It! Kevinroc's Avatar
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    Only because DC took notes on Spider-Man. Spider-Man is one of the most influential characters in the medium.

  5. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Just to be clear, I'm not advocating for a rights swap. That's not happening here. I was just watching Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse on Netflix and this random thought popped into my head. There's at least a few things that make Spider-Man somewhat unique in the Marvel Universe that aren't that unique in the DC Universe. So, I guess this is me just listing them out as a little thought exercise to see if you agree.

    Reason #1: He Still Has His Secret Identity

    This one's probably the most obvious. Spider-Man, unlike a lot of Marvel heroes, still has his identity hidden from the public. I'm pretty sure this has been pointed out before, but it is something that makes him more like a DC hero in that regard. The majority of Marvel's A-list heroes have their identities out there: The Fantastic Four, almost all of the main X-Men (Cyclops, Jean Grey, Wolverine, Storm, etc.), Captain America, Iron Man, Hulk, Thor (ever since they ditched Donald Blake years back), Punisher, Black Panther, Luke Cage, Captain Marvel, Hank Pym, Hawkeye, Black Widow, Dr, Strange, and then some. The only real exceptions I can think of to that are Daredevil and Moon Knight. That is, unless Matt's identity is finally out there.

    Contrast that with the DC Universe. Batman and the entire Batfamily, Superman, Flash (except when Wally West's identity was public knowledge), at least 3 of Earth's Green Lanterns (Hal, Kyle, and Simon; don't know if Jessica's ID is out there), Captain Marvel/Shazam, Green Arrow, the Question, etc. are all currently maintaining their secret identities. The main exceptions to that, the ones who have their identities out there, are Wonder Woman, Aquaman, the other three (or two) Earth Lanterns, Animal Man, Jay Garrick, Alan Scott, the Doom Patrol, and some of the Titans.

    So, the fact that Spider-Man still has his (even though some, including myself, have advocated for his identity being maybe a little bit more open) does make him a bit more DC.

    Reason #2: That There are Multiple Prominent Alternate Universe Versions of Him

    Marvel does toy around with the multiverse with its other heroes, yes, but not to the extent that DC has in the past. DC kind of invented the Elseworlds game, with Superman and Batman alone having dozens of alternate universe versions of themselves. Superman has everything from All-Star to Red Son to Speeding Bullets to Kingdom Come and then some. And Batman has everything from Gotham by Gaslight to DKR to Batman 66 to Holy Terror Batman to Golden Gates of Gotham Batman to Batman Year 100 to Batman Beyond and more. So, the fact that Peter also has at least a few more multiverse counterparts out there than the other Marvel heroes again makes him more similar to a DC hero.

    Reason #3: His Amazing Villains

    This may not be universal as an opinion and I don't even subscribe to the notion, but it is an adage that DC has at least somewhat better villains than Marvel. Outside of the Spider-Man rogues gallery, there are at least a few of great Marvel villains that are almost universally known and have been considered iconic for decades: Dr. Doom, Magneto, Galactus, Loki, I could see an argument for Red Skull, Apocalypse, and Thanos. But needless to say, those ranks would be considerably thinned without Spider-Man's villains.

    Contrasting that with DC, we see that there's the entire Batman rogues gallery, with Joker, Catwoman, Ra's al Ghul, Two-Face, and the rest. However, even outside of Batman's villains, there's Superman's villains with Lex Luthor and Zod and Mongul and Brainiac and Doomsday. The Flash's villains are considered iconic and well-beloved. Green Lantern has Sinestro at the very least. Aquaman's got Black Manta. Wonder Woman has Cheetah and Ares. Then there's Darkseid, Deathstroke, Black Adam, Vandal Savage, the Anti-Monitor, etc.

    So, I don't know. Does the fact that Peter's got one of the best rogues galleries make him more DC-like?

    Reason #4: He Has an Elderly Family Member who Raised Him

    Aunt May, meet Alfred...and Ma and Pa Kent (from before Flashpoint).

    Reason #5: He Has One Main Love Interest

    Yeah, he's had other relationships, but Peter's love life has largely focused on Mary Jane Watson. Gwen Stacy in the modern age tends to simply be a memory of trauma and the typical example of a fridged female character instead of a real love interest for Peter. The rest of the Marvel heroes have largely abandoned a lot of their classic Silver Age romantic partners. For a long time, Jane Foster wasn't even seen in Thor comics, even though she's prominent now. Pepper Potts was also largely absent from Iron Man's world for years and only really resurfaced when the MCU came along and then I think disappeared again. I don't even know if Betty Ross is a love interest for Bruce at the moment in the Immortal Hulk title (still behind; need to catch up). The only classic Silver/Bronze Age Marvel pairings that are still relevant are, well, Peter and MJ, Steve and Sharon, and I could see an argument for either Scott and Jean or Jean and Logan.

    Contrast that with DC. Lois and Clark are probably the ultimate couple in comics, so much so that their marriage survived a reboot and then reinserted itself into the timeline. Barry and Iris. Hal and Carol (who has only recently disappeared again). Arthur and Mera. Ralph and Sue Dibny. Hawkman and Hawkwoman. Ollie and Dinah. And, yes, all of these heroes have had other love interests. However, most of them at least, have always come back to their main love interest. The only exceptions to this are Wonder Woman and, interestingly enough, Batman, who has had at least a few serious love interests from Silver St. Cloud to Vicki Vale to Julie Madison, but even then, he largely vacillates between Catwoman and Talia.

    So, the fact that its largely been about MJ for Peter for, well, decades does move him a little further in the DC direction.

    Anyway, this has been fun. Let me know your thoughts.
    Going through these one by one...

    1) Secret identities are more of a trope of superhero comics. There were some DC heroes without secret identities like the Challengers of the Unknown, so it's not really a division. Didn't Dick Grayson also really get outed as Robin?

    2) Fair enough, although this is largely because of his popularity. We're also seeing alternate versions of Wolverine.

    3) When you're comparing two companies, quality of a category doesn't really work all that much. There are plenty of DC heroes with relatively lame rogues galleries (Green Arrow)

    4) That's not really a DC VS Marvel thing, but more about heroes often being orphaned (see also Rick Jones, Daredevil and the Storms.) Alfred's status as the guy who raised Bruce wasn't always set in stone.

    5) His other relationships have been prominent, and his best known story might be "The Night Gwen Stacy Died"

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    Going through these one by one...

    1) Secret identities are more of a trope of superhero comics. There were some DC heroes without secret identities like the Challengers of the Unknown, so it's not really a division. Didn't Dick Grayson also really get outed as Robin?
    Yes, there's obviously nuance. But, Marvel has mostly abandoned the notion of secret identities, with only a few exceptions, at least when it comes to their A-list roster of heroes. DC's A-list roster, on the other hand, has not for the most part.

    Also, I'm not sure what you're referring to with Dick Grayson. The current situation in his book is one I'm not familiar with. But he hasn't been Robin for decades.

    2) Fair enough, although this is largely because of his popularity. We're also seeing alternate versions of Wolverine.
    Well, yeah, it could also be a sign that Marvel promotes Spider-Man in a similar way to how DC promotes Superman and Batman.

    3) When you're comparing two companies, quality of a category doesn't really work all that much. There are plenty of DC heroes with relatively lame rogues galleries (Green Arrow)
    Fair enough.

    4) That's not really a DC VS Marvel thing, but more about heroes often being orphaned (see also Rick Jones, Daredevil and the Storms.) Alfred's status as the guy who raised Bruce wasn't always set in stone.
    Yeah, but I think it is something that makes him and Batman (and Post-Crisis Superman) unique among comic book characters. They have elderly parental figures that require their attention. I'm trying to think of others that share that and I can't really think of any.

    5) His other relationships have been prominent, and his best known story might be "The Night Gwen Stacy Died"
    I mean, Lana Lang was also a prominent love interest for Superman. So was Fiona Webb for Barry Allen. All comic heroes have had multiple love interests but something that seems prevalent in the DCU is the propensity to return to their classic love interests, while Marvel heroes have largely moved on. For the majority of his history as a character, Spider-Man's portrayals in the comics and other media have had Mary Jane serve as his principal love interest. Rightfully so, in my opinion.

    I guess the point here is that Spider-Man is closer to Superman and Batman at least than he is like the other Marvel heroes. That would make sense since, for a long time, they were the only three superhero franchises that really had high visibility among the public and were inevitably marketed in similar ways.
    Last edited by Zeeguy91; 07-11-2019 at 11:55 AM.

  7. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    His other relationships have been prominent, and his best known story might be "The Night Gwen Stacy Died"
    The Night Gwen Stacy Died is a story that ends with setting up Peter and MJ as the important romance, so I don't see how that takes away from the argument that MJ has been Peter's most prominent, featured, and often adapted love interest.

  8. #23
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiderClops View Post
    Spider-Man is as Marvel as you can get.
    This, he is Marvel through and through, IMO.
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  9. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The Night Gwen Stacy Died is a story that ends with setting up Peter and MJ as the important romance, so I don't see how that takes away from the argument that MJ has been Peter's most prominent, featured, and often adapted love interest.
    It suggests that casual fans are aware of Gwen Stacy as a love interest..

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Yes, there's obviously nuance. But, Marvel has mostly abandoned the notion of secret identities, with only a few exceptions, at least when it comes to their A-list roster of heroes. DC's A-list roster, on the other hand, has not for the most part.

    Also, I'm not sure what you're referring to with Dick Grayson. The current situation in his book is one I'm not familiar with. But he hasn't been Robin for decades.



    Well, yeah, it could also be a sign that Marvel promotes Spider-Man in a similar way to how DC promotes Superman and Batman.



    Fair enough.



    Yeah, but I think it is something that makes him and Batman (and Post-Crisis Superman) unique among comic book characters. They have elderly parental figures that require their attention. I'm trying to think of others that share that and I can't really think of any.



    I mean, Lana Lang was also a prominent love interest for Superman. So was Fiona Webb for Barry Allen. All comic heroes have had multiple love interests but something that seems prevalent in the DCU is the propensity to return to their classic love interests, while Marvel heroes have largely moved on. For the majority of his history as a character, Spider-Man's portrayals in the comics and other media have had Mary Jane serve as his principal love interest. Rightfully so, in my opinion.

    I guess the point here is that Spider-Man is closer to Superman and Batman at least than he is like the other Marvel heroes. That would make sense since, for a long time, they were the only three superhero franchises that really had high visibility among the public and were inevitably marketed in similar ways.
    The problem with comparing A-listers is that it's really small sample sets, trying to get a wider significance from a handful of characters. It's also looking at modern trends.

    Grayson's unmasking occurred a few years ago. https://www.dccomics.com/blog/2013/1...twing-unmasked

    Superman was also outed for about an year. https://comicbook.com/2015/08/26/sup...uted-superman/

    I think it's more that the major companies promote their top characters in a particular way than that a similarity between Spider-Man and Batman/ Superman means he's more like them, if we're also seeing alternate versions of Wolverine, to say nothing of all the Iron Man spinoffs, or multiple Hulks.

    If post-Crisis Superman does something similar to Silver Age Spider-Man, that's not really Spider-Man being more DC.

    I'm honestly not sure who Fiona Webb is. A major distinction with Lois Lane is that she was the main love interest from the beginning. Spider-Man had several love interests before MJ showed up and after. Hell, one of them Black Cat has a new title right now.

  10. #25
    I'm at least a C-Lister! exile001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    I'm honestly not sure who Fiona Webb is.
    Few do, which is kind of funny as she was the reason that The Flash famously killed Professor Zoom.

    Zoom was responsible for classic Flash wife Iris West's murder, vibrating his hand through her skull. But Barry moved on, got engaged to Fiona Webb and Zoom returned, on their wedding day, to do the same to Fiona. Flash and Zoom raced around the Earth and ultimately Barry snapped Zoom's neck to save his new love. I think he then jilted her and she went insane, IIRC.
    Just. Be. Nice.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    The problem with comparing A-listers is that it's really small sample sets, trying to get a wider significance from a handful of characters. It's also looking at modern trends.

    Grayson's unmasking occurred a few years ago. https://www.dccomics.com/blog/2013/1...twing-unmasked

    Superman was also outed for about an year. https://comicbook.com/2015/08/26/sup...uted-superman/
    Oh yeah, I remember that. But, in both cases, it was reversed pretty quickly and they got their secret IDs back. Most A-list Marvel characters have gone like decades without a secret identity.

    I think it's more that the major companies promote their top characters in a particular way than that a similarity between Spider-Man and Batman/ Superman means he's more like them, if we're also seeing alternate versions of Wolverine, to say nothing of all the Iron Man spinoffs, or multiple Hulks.
    Well, yeah, exactly. For a long time, Batman, Superman, and Spider-Man were the top characters in comic books. So of course they were promoted similarly.

    I'm honestly not sure who Fiona Webb is. A major distinction with Lois Lane is that she was the main love interest from the beginning. Spider-Man had several love interests before MJ showed up and after. Hell, one of them Black Cat has a new title right now.
    Well, its not like MJ showed up decades later. Some characters' main love interests literally weren't around or weren't their love interests until like 20 or 30 years after they first debuted. That's true of Green Arrow/Black Canary and of Aquaman/Mera. They're still the main love interests. MJ showed up only about 3 years after Spider-Man's debut, and was created by the original creators. Yes, Ditko technically did create MJ because she shows up in ASM #25 in a partial appearance where her face is covered. One could even argue that she was being set up as the main love interest from the beginning as its obvious that Aunt May approves of her and has intentions to set them up in ASM #15.
    Last edited by Zeeguy91; 07-12-2019 at 10:09 AM.

  12. #27
    Ultimate Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    Going through these one by one...

    1) Secret identities are more of a trope of superhero comics. There were some DC heroes without secret identities like the Challengers of the Unknown, so it's not really a division. Didn't Dick Grayson also really get outed as Robin?
    Dick Grayson has been Nightwing since the late 80s. Damian Wayne and Tim Drake are the current Robins, though Tim's about to get a new identity. And neither have had their secret identities busted.

  13. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    Dick Grayson has been Nightwing since the late 80s. Damian Wayne and Tim Drake are the current Robins, though Tim's about to get a new identity. And neither have had their secret identities busted.
    To be precise, I was under the impression that he was also outed as a former Robin in the same story.

  14. #29
    Peter Scott/Scott Peter SpiderClops's Avatar
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    DC usually treats their popular heroes as in-universe loved(Superman) or legendary(Batman), one of the greatest or powerful. Spider-Man has rarely been treated like that. Superman and Batman are larger than life. Spider-Man most certainly is not.
    “Indifference and neglect often do much more damage than outright dislike.”
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  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiderClops View Post
    DC usually treats their popular heroes as in-universe loved(Superman) or legendary(Batman), one of the greatest or powerful. Spider-Man has rarely been treated like that. Superman and Batman are larger than life. Spider-Man most certainly is not.
    Actually Batman has many times been portrayed as being hated by the Gotham PD. Just see the Gotham Central series for some of the animosity between him and the cops. At the same time, I can think of a few times when Spider-Man has also been looked at as "legendary" in-universe in the Marvel U.
    Last edited by Zeeguy91; 07-12-2019 at 09:38 PM.

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