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  1. #31
    Peter Scott/Scott Peter SpiderClops's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Actually Batman has many times been portrayed as being hated by the Gotham PD. Just see the Gotham Central series for some of the animosity between him and the cops. At the same time, I can think of a few times when Spider-Man has also been looked at as "legendary" in-universe in the Marvel U.
    That's why I used the word 'legendary' for Batman. And by the way, he's called 'the dark knight'.

    I also said rarely. Spidey got the legendary treatment a handful of times, Batman and Superman get it all the time.

    You're just seeing what you want to see. Compare Batman's status in Justice League to Spider-Man's status in Avengers. Still think Spidey's more DC than Marvel? Then I can't help you.
    “Indifference and neglect often do much more damage than outright dislike.”
    -Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore, Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiderClops View Post
    That's why I used the word 'legendary' for Batman. And by the way, he's called 'the dark knight'.

    I also said rarely. Spidey got the legendary treatment a handful of times, Batman and Superman get it all the time.

    You're just seeing what you want to see. Compare Batman's status in Justice League to Spider-Man's status in Avengers. Still think Spidey's more DC than Marvel? Then I can't help you.
    You know I don't actually think that Spider-Man is more DC than Marvel, right? Mostly because DC and Marvel are, well, pretty similar. This is just a thought exercise to point out their similarities and their differences.
    Last edited by Zeeguy91; 07-12-2019 at 10:41 PM.

  3. #33
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    People forget that Batman comics borrowed a lot of influence from Spider-Man in the '70s. In the '70s, Steve Gerber, Denny O'Neill and others thought to update Batman, so they moved Batman out of Wayne Manor and into a fancy building in the heart of the city. Bruce Wayne was also made younger looking, and he had this relationship dilemma with Silver St. Cloud (and yes that was the actual name in the comic) where Bruce is torn between his double life as Batman and Bruce and so on, and angsts in a very Peter Parker way. Green Goblin is often seen as a Joker knockoff. But Goblin killed Gwen Stacy over a decade before Joker got to using a crowbar and torturing Barbara. So to some extent, Joker's taken notes from Goblin rather than the other way around.

    And of course you have the Batman Beyond cartoon, where Bruce Wayne in his future retires and his appointed successor is a teenager who has guilt about not being there for his father figure on the night he killed and who lives with his maternal figure while dating a party-going girl who is often confused about his absences and so on...in other words Peter Parker in a batsuit.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Green Goblin is often seen as a Joker knockoff. But Goblin killed Gwen Stacy over a decade before Joker got to using a crowbar and torturing Barbara. So to some extent, Joker's taken notes from Goblin rather than the other way around.
    To be fair, Joker was a homicidal maniac long before the 70s. His first ever appearance in 1940 had him remorselessly murdering a bunch of people. The Silver Age came along and mellowed him out to make him more "kid-friendly" but his roots were always that of a serial killer.
    Last edited by Zeeguy91; 07-12-2019 at 11:20 PM.

  5. #35
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    To be fair, Joker was a homicidal maniac long before the 70s. His first ever appearance in 1940 had him remorselessly murdering a bunch of people. The Silver Age came along and mellowed him out to make him more "kid-friendly" but his roots were always that of a serial killer.
    Yes, but one must not pretend that this was commonly known back in the '70s. That's true now, thanks to the internet where every part of a character's history is online, but that wasn't true back in the '70s. At that time, only a few dedicated comics readers and nerds would know of stuff like this. For most of that time, rumor reigned, grapevine and other stuff, and that meant fan theories and ideas often substituted for hard facts. We owe to this dark age of rumor and misinformation (which a lot of people like to be nostalgic about for some reason) the character assassination of Steve Ditko, who apparently had issues with Norman being the Goblin and so on and other crap over the years.

    The Joker was actually missing in action in Batman comics for the mid-60s because DC's editor Julius Schwartz felt the character didn't work. The Batman TV Show made Joker into a campy clown, albeit Cesar Romero's performance on the whole is fantastic for that version of the character. And that was the version everyone knew and that colored even the views of Schwartz, an editor who went way back (he was Lovecraft's literary agent). It was Neal Adams and Dennis O'Neill who changed things around with a story that came the same year, and maybe a few months after The Night Gwen Stacy Died, "The Joker's Five Way Revenge". The Joker had been missing and he came back strong and returned to murdering glory. Now Adams and O'Neill knew that they were reverting Joker to his original characterization but to the general reader, it would have felt like something dark and edgy.

  6. #36
    Ultimate Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    To be precise, I was under the impression that he was also outed as a former Robin in the same story.
    Nightwing was, not Dick (how else would it make sense that a new hero was leading the established Teen Titans team, and their old leader was just gone? The explanation, of course, is that they're the same person). The public know that Nightwing was the first Robin, but not his civilian identity.

  7. #37
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Regarding the Joker/Green Goblin comparison, my personal take is that Norman Osborn/Green Goblin is what you would roughly get if the Joker's day job was being Lex Luthor, who also cribs from Norman and the Spider-Man mythos in terms of being revamped in the 1980s after Crisis on Infinite Earths as a corrupt billionaire industrialist who passes as a good citizen of the city he lives in and whose schemes revolve around expanding his wealth and sphere of influence (and spiting his red-and-blue-clad heroic nemesis, whose day job is in the news media).
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  8. #38
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    And of course you have the Batman Beyond cartoon, where Bruce Wayne in his future retires and his appointed successor is a teenager who has guilt about not being there for his father figure on the night he killed and who lives with his maternal figure while dating a party-going girl who is often confused about his absences and so on...in other words Peter Parker in a batsuit.
    Spider-Man's also taken his fair share from DC cartoons, whether intentional or otherwise.

    Most people remember Efrem Zimbalist Jr. as Alfred on Batman: The Animated Series, but he was also Doctor Octopus on the 90's Spider-Man show. To this day I still read Doc Ock in his voice.

    I think Steve Blum channeled a lot of Mark Hamill's Joker in his Spectacular Green Goblin. In fact, Mark Hamill was even the Hobgoblin in the 90's show.

    Grey Griffin basically just did her Catwoman voice for Black Cat in the Marvel's Spider-Man cartoon, which I guess goes to show you how much effort they actually put into the character there. I wonder if she played Betty before she did any of the numerous times she's played Lois Lane.

    Mark Rolston is Young Justice and Injustice Lex Luthor and went on to play PS4 Norman Osborn. He was also DCAU Firefly back in the day.

  9. #39
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Spider-Man's also taken his fair share from DC cartoons, whether intentional or otherwise.

    Most people remember Efrem Zimbalist Jr. as Alfred on Batman: The Animated Series, but he was also Doctor Octopus on the 90's Spider-Man show. To this day I still read Doc Ock in his voice.

    I think Steve Blum channeled a lot of Mark Hamill's Joker in his Spectacular Green Goblin. In fact, Mark Hamill was even the Hobgoblin in the 90's show.

    Grey Griffin basically just did her Catwoman voice for Black Cat in the Marvel's Spider-Man cartoon, which I guess goes to show you how much effort they actually put into the character there. I wonder if she played Betty before she did any of the numerous times she's played Lois Lane.

    Mark Rolston is Young Justice and Injustice Lex Luthor and went on to play PS4 Norman Osborn. He was also DCAU Firefly back in the day.
    She voiced Betty Brant (and Sally Avril) in The Spectacular Spider-Man, and reprised Betty in Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes' "Along Came a Spider," the first appearance of Spider-Man in a Marvel animated series not starring him since the finale of X-Men: TAS's Phoenix Saga, where a shadow could be seen shooting a web-line to save some vulnerable people in the midst of the cataclysm being caused by the M'Kraan Crystal sucking everything into itself.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  10. #40
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    Over the decades, many DC characters have become more Marvel-ish and many Marvel characters have become more DC-ish. It's unfortunate all around, making for a more homogeneous genre and industry.

    In particular, I don't think the plethora of similarly powered spin-off characters serves the Marvel Universe well. The teen sidekicks, female counterparts and Earth-2 counterparts are so very DC. As is all of the super-heroes being buddies and knowing each other's secret identities.

  11. #41
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    In particular, I don't think the plethora of similarly powered spin-off characters serves the Marvel Universe well. The teen sidekicks, female counterparts and Earth-2 counterparts are so very DC. As is all of the super-heroes being buddies and knowing each other's secret identities.
    I think as far as Spider-Man is concerned the spinoff characters don't really serve the inherent narrative of Spider-Man well unless you kill Peter off.

    Otherwise you do what the PS4 game did and make it more of a DC thing. I mean, PS4 Miles is more Wally West then he is Miles Morales in my opinion.

  12. #42
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Regarding the Joker/Green Goblin comparison, my personal take is that Norman Osborn/Green Goblin is what you would roughly get if the Joker's day job was being Lex Luthor, who also cribs from Norman and the Spider-Man mythos in terms of being revamped in the 1980s after Crisis on Infinite Earths as a corrupt billionaire industrialist who passes as a good citizen of the city he lives in and whose schemes revolve around expanding his wealth and sphere of influence (and spiting his red-and-blue-clad heroic nemesis, whose day job is in the news media).
    Businessman Lex was modeled on Frank Miller's Kingpin in his Daredevil run.

    You want a good sense of who Lex was before, then read Superman Vs. The Amazing Spider-Man, he's basically a bald dude without personality.

  13. #43
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Businessman Lex was modeled on Frank Miller's Kingpin in his Daredevil run.

    You want a good sense of who Lex was before, then read Superman Vs. The Amazing Spider-Man, he's basically a bald dude without personality.
    And he's a complete maniac willing to annihilate the planet and all the human race. I do remember that part.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  14. #44
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    And he's a complete maniac willing to annihilate the planet and all the human race. I do remember that part.
    And extremely petty. Especially when it comes to Superman .

  15. #45
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    And extremely petty. Especially when it comes to Superman .
    Much like Norman Osborn with Spider-Man, and they both wear green and purple in their battle attire.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

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