Thought Exercise: Is Spider-Man more of a DC than a Marvel?

[Mister Mets]

Okay. I'm just wondering how that is something that makes Marvel unique, then. After all, there are (unfortunately) also corrupt businessmen like Lex and serial killers like the Joker in the real world as well.

Lex Luthor didn't become a businessman until much later.

This is something I wrote a few years ago.

When “civilians” imagine how typical comic book villains act, they’ll generally think of DC bad guys. These are all the Batman enemies with built-in weaknesses (Riddler’s desire to leave clues, Two-Face’s reliance on his coins), the mad scientists who Superman beats up, or the Flash Rogues who just love hanging out together.

Marvel’s bad guys usually have something closer to real world motivations. Spider-Man and Daredevil tend to fight criminals who just happen to have super-powers, and use those to obtain a combination of money, power or revenge. The Fantastic Four often fight evil kings (the Skrull Emperor, Namor, the Mole Man, the Kree Supreme Intelligence, Annihilus, Doctor Doom). And the X-Men fight terrorists, either mutant supremacists like Magneto, or bigots like the Human Liberation Front.

To some degree, this ties into the idea that the Marvel Universe is supposed to represent the world outside your window. In that case, it makes sense for many of the bad guys to have real world counterparts, even if real bank robbers aren’t as daring as the typical Spider-Man bad guy.

By this reckoning, the current and best version of Lex Luthor, the billionaire scientist warped by his jealousy of Superman, may be DC’s most Marvel-like villain. It’s worth noting that the character has changed significantly since his debut in 1940, when he was a generic mad scientist. The current incarnation didn’t exist until the 1980s, developed by two writers (Marv Wolfman and John Byrne) who had done extensive work for Marvel.

DC’s patchwork format is somewhat responsible for the differences in attitudes, as is the incredible debt Marvel owes to one guy. Subsequent writers would all build on Stan Lee’s approach to superhero comics. And because most great Marvel stories exist within a shared universe, there’s a consistency to how writers handle the antagonists.

As the DC Universe is composed of so many disparate parts and revised so often, there’s slightly less of a core identity. The depictions of particular villains can change rapidly, with Penguin going from bird-loving thief to disreputable night-club owner, as the Joker went from a mass-murderer to prankster, and back again. With all the revamps, writers tend to stick with more iconic themes, often going with what the public is already familiar with. Even if someone wanted to push the DC Universe in a particular direction, subsequent writers and editors could take everything back to basics.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Lex Luthor didn't become a businessman until much later.

That doesn't change the fact that that's who he's been for, well, decades.

When “civilians” imagine how typical comic book villains act, they’ll generally think of DC bad guys. These are all the Batman enemies with built-in weaknesses (Riddler’s desire to leave clues, Two-Face’s reliance on his coins), the mad scientists who Superman beats up, or the Flash Rogues who just love hanging out together.

Dude, I think that's very much an overgeneralization that misses a good amount of the nuances to these villains. Flash's Rogues hang out together because they are petty criminals who have formed a brotherhood with rules and a code of honor. Batman's rogues tend to act out of different forms of mental illness. I mean, you can't just boil down these characters based on surface characteristics.

Marvel’s bad guys usually have something closer to real-world motivations. Spider-Man and Daredevil tend to fight criminals who just happen to have super-powers and use those to obtain a combination of money, power or revenge.

I'm not seeing how that's much different from Batman, to be honest. I mean, there's a reason people point out the strong parallels between Batman's and Spider-Man's rogues.

The Fantastic Four often fight evil kings (the Skrull Emperor, Namor, the Mole Man, the Kree Supreme Intelligence, Annihilus, Doctor Doom). And the X-Men fight terrorists, either mutant supremacists like Magneto, or bigots like the Human Liberation Front.

Yeah, I just don't see how the motives of Annihulus or Dr. Doom or Namor or Magneto are that different from the motives of characters like Sinestro, Black Adam, Darkseid, General Zod, and Ra's al Ghul.

DC’s patchwork format is somewhat responsible for the differences in attitudes, as is the incredible debt Marvel owes to one guy. Subsequent writers would all build on Stan Lee’s approach to superhero comics. And because most great Marvel stories exist within a shared universe, there’s a consistency to how writers handle the antagonists.

As the DC Universe is composed of so many disparate parts and revised so often, there’s slightly less of a core identity. The depictions of particular villains can change rapidly, with Penguin going from bird-loving thief to disreputable night-club owner, as the Joker went from a mass-murderer to prankster, and back again. With all the revamps, writers tend to stick with more iconic themes, often going with what the public is already familiar with. Even if someone wanted to push the DC Universe in a particular direction, subsequent writers and editors could take everything back to basics.

I think you're attributing what you're seeing to the wrong thing. A lot of these variations came about, not because of a "patchwork" approach, but because of outside societal pressure. During the 50s, a lot of people turned against comics because of the likes of Frederic Wertham. So, DC and other comic book publishers were forced to tone down the content of their publications. That's why Joker went from his original depiction as a mass murderer to a goofy prankster and a lot of DC's villains went from scary to campy.

To their benefit, Marvel's characters largely debuted after that panic had died down and they weren't subject to that same scrutiny. Therefore, they were able to revitalize interest in superhero comics, which by that point, had become all but a dead genre.

Though, I will say that DC villains have been more or less consistent in their portrayals for several decades. I mean, I can't really think of a portrayal in the past 30-40 years that had Joker return to the "harmless prankster" trope he was in the Silver Age.

[Speed Force League Unlimited]

Reason #1: He Still Has His Secret Identity


The only real exceptions I can think of to that are Daredevil and Moon Knight. That is, unless Matt's identity is finally out there.

Mark Waid made his identity go public, made Matt have fun with this, and it was no sooner undone.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Mark Waid made his identity go public, made Matt have fun with this, and it was no sooner undone.

Oh, yeah, I remember Waid's run. I was just wondering if Marvel had stopped flirting with the idea and had finally ripped off the bandaid already.

[Falcon16]

Well they do have Black Cat who's basically Catwoman

[Spiderfang]

Spidey has a lot of morals and character that is similar in vein to Bruce Wayne/Batman with the "no kill" policy, however that becomes less impactful when you realize that almost every other "big good" Marvel or DC hero also lives by the same policy (i.e. Captain America, Super-Man, etc.) Aside from having similar thought patterns (both Bats and Spidey are analytical and snarky), traumatic past histories, and moral compasses I don't think Spider-Man is any better suited to be a DC hero than say Swamp Thing is to be a Valkyrie of Asgard (hyperbole aside, it doesn't matter since we have two great comic-book companies that produce some awesome content, which we can enjoy both of without hating the other).

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Spidey has a lot of morals and character that is similar in vein to Bruce Wayne/Batman with the "no kill" policy, however that becomes less impactful when you realize that almost every other "big good" Marvel or DC hero also lives by the same policy (i.e. Captain America, Super-Man, etc.) Aside from having similar thought patterns (both Bats and Spidey are analytical and snarky), traumatic past histories, and moral compasses I don't think Spider-Man is any better suited to be a DC hero than say Swamp Thing is to be a Valkyrie of Asgard (hyperbole aside, it doesn't matter since we have two great comic-book companies that produce some awesome content, which we can enjoy both of without hating the other).

And I would read that crossover comic in a heartbeat.