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  1. #31
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inversed View Post
    Honestly I'd compare Frieza more to someone like Doctor Doom, especially once you get to the Broly movie which follows up that arc, and he's right back to pure villainy and genocide.

    I'm on the side of Vegeta being Otto, because they both have their very closed off and angry personalities, believing their way to be the best and only options, but have grown to still want to do the right thing in the end. Also, they may not be a pairing at the moment, but Anna Maria can very much be seen as the Bulma in this situation.
    Maybe someday Otto will become like Vegeta but I, for the time being, still see him as Dragon Ball Super Frieza. I feel he hasn't reformed enough yet to be modern Vegeta perhaps Android/Cell Saga Vegeta but not modern Vegeta. He needs his noble sacrifice moment plus a meaningful reconciliation with Peter before he can make the leap from villain turned somewhat reluctant anti-hero to fully realized anti-hero.

    PS The Broly movie was great, IMO.
    Last edited by Celgress; 07-13-2019 at 09:05 PM.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  2. #32
    Super Member GSman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    Maybe someday Otto will become like Vegeta but I, for the time being, still see him as Dragon Ball Super Frieza. I feel he hasn't reformed enough yet to be modern Vegeta perhaps Android/Cell Saga Vegeta but not modern Vegeta. He needs his noble sacrifice moment plus a meaningful reconciliation with Peter before he can make the leap from villain turned somewhat reluctant anti-hero to fully realized anti-hero.

    PS The Broly movie was great, IMO.
    I think why I can't see Otto as Frieza is that he's actually trying to do good with the second chance he's been given, take Frieza on the other hand who after being revived didn't repent or feel any remorse for his actions and went straight back to being a genocidal maniac, the thing that got him killed 2 times before. So really the main difference between Otto and Frieza, and why I can't equate them together is because Frieza will never ever admit he's wrong or feel sympathy for his crimes. While Otto can and has admitted he's wrong for his actions, not to someone else to convince them of his goodness, but himself in his self monologuing. That's more than Frieza who's completely irredeemable could do.

  3. #33
    Extraordinary Member Tendrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GSman View Post
    I think why I can't see Otto as Frieza is that he's actually trying to do good with the second chance he's been given, take Frieza on the other hand who after being revived didn't repent or feel any remorse for his actions and went straight back to being a genocidal maniac, the thing that got him killed 2 times before. So really the main difference between Otto and Frieza, and why I can't equate them together is because Frieza will never ever admit he's wrong or feel sympathy for his crimes. While Otto can and has admitted he's wrong for his actions, not to someone else to convince them of his goodness, but himself in his self monologuing. That's more than Frieza who's completely irredeemable could do.
    Has he really admitted they're wrong, though? Sure, he SAYS he's changed, but he's still reflexetively using mental illness, or declaring that his plans were 'more nuanced' than that, or 'just trolling'. Otto wants to do better but does he even know what 'better' looks like or is he just going through what the motions of a superhero look like?

    That he's /trying/ to do better is certain but it's far less clear if he knows what better looks like beyond playing the superhero.

    I thinks his frustration is going to come down to the accolades feeling hollow in the face of a little dose of self knowledge.

  4. #34
    Super Member GSman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tendrin View Post
    Has he really admitted they're wrong, though? Sure, he SAYS he's changed, but he's still reflexetively using mental illness, or declaring that his plans were 'more nuanced' than that, or 'just trolling'. Otto wants to do better but does he even know what 'better' looks like or is he just going through what the motions of a superhero look like?

    That he's /trying/ to do better is certain but it's far less clear if he knows what better looks like beyond playing the superhero.

    I thinks his frustration is going to come down to the accolades feeling hollow in the face of a little dose of self knowledge.
    I do remember that self monologue he had in Superior Octopus, though it was about Anna he admitted he was accused of many crimes and is guilty of them. Though it was a passing comment, it still shows he knows he was in the wrong in some capacity. Though he uses the "mental illness" excuse to try and brush of his crimes to other people, and perhaps himself, deep down he knows he did bad things, he's just not willing to admit it to anyone else, as if yet.

    And Otto I'd say is doing what a hero should be doing and what's most important, saving lives, he's not doing it to bathe in some sort of glory, and even though he's finally attained that glory, it still doesn't satisfy him it seems, but I don't believe he's doing heroics for some selfish reason, I do think he's trying to improve. And with Anna being his probation officer, she really is a huge influence on him, encouraging him to be more social, and not think of people as beneath him which paid off with that dinner Otto attended, or with him consoling a child about his dead mother, or being honest and upfront with Emma instead of deceiving her like he did Anna. So I'd say perhaps Otto doesn't know how to be better by himself but the people around him can definitely help him change. Which coincidentally, relating back to the DBZ discussion we had before is how Vegeta became a better man from the cold ruthless killer he was before.
    Last edited by GSman; 07-13-2019 at 11:11 PM.

  5. #35
    Extraordinary Member Tendrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GSman View Post
    I do remember that self monologue he had in Superior Octopus, though it was about Anna he admitted he was accused of many crimes and is guilty of them. Though it was a passing comment, it still shows he knows he was in the wrong in some capacity. Though he uses the "mental illness" excuse to try and brush of his crimes to other people, and perhaps himself, deep down he knows he did bad things, he's just not willing to admit it to anyone else, as if yet.

    And Otto I'd say is doing what a hero should be doing and what's most important, saving lives, he's not doing it to bathe in some sort of glory, and even though he's finally attained that glory, it still doesn't satisfy him it seems, but I don't believe he's doing heroics for some selfish reason, I do think he's trying to improve. And with Anna being his probation officer, she really is a huge influence on him, encouraging him to be more social, and not think of people as beneath him which paid off with that dinner Otto attended, or with him consoling a child about his dead mother, or being honest and upfront with Emma instead of deceiving her like he did Anna. So I'd say perhaps Otto doesn't know how to be better by himself but the people around him can definitely help him change. Which coincidentally, relating back to the DBZ discussion we had before is how Vegeta became a better man from the cold ruthless killer he was before.

    Okay, but being nice to kids is a pretty low bar.


    I'm saying it, it's ambiguous and I think the story is better for it, so far.

  6. #36
    Super Member GSman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tendrin View Post
    Okay, but being nice to kids is a pretty low bar.


    I'm saying it, it's ambiguous and I think the story is better for it, so far.
    True, consoling children isn't the epitome of heroics, but for Otto, that's probably one of his most defining moments as a hero, in my eyes anyway, which shows he's actually trying, and can even relate to a child. Big change from the Otto we had 7 years ago.

  7. #37
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tendrin View Post
    Has he really admitted they're wrong, though? Sure, he SAYS he's changed, but he's still reflexetively using mental illness, or declaring that his plans were 'more nuanced' than that, or 'just trolling'. Otto wants to do better but does he even know what 'better' looks like or is he just going through what the motions of a superhero look like?

    That he's /trying/ to do better is certain but it's far less clear if he knows what better looks like beyond playing the superhero.

    I thinks his frustration is going to come down to the accolades feeling hollow in the face of a little dose of self knowledge.
    Exactly, this is why I can't see Otto as a Vegeta type especially a modern Vegeta analog but to each their own.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  8. #38
    Fantastic Member tbaron's Avatar
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    I read the Superior Spiderman series from a few years ago. Is this a new one? Is this Doc Ock as Spiderman again? How did he come back?
    Favorite teams. Avengers, West Coast Avengers, Justice Society of America, Legion of Superheroes.

  9. #39
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbaron View Post
    I read the Superior Spiderman series from a few years ago. Is this a new one? Is this Doc Ock as Spiderman again? How did he come back?
    He's a time-displaced Otto from Spider-Verse (from before Goblin Nation) who put his consciousness into a bot before being sent back, then the Living Brain, then a bot again, then a new version of his original body, then a hybrid clone body of his and Peter's DNA, then he joined Hydra as Superior Octopus, then he left Hydra, then he went to the West Coast, then he become Spider-Man again

    Spider-Verse, then Clone Conspiracy, then ASM's Secret Empire tie-ins, then Amazing Spider-Man #800, then Spider-Geddon, then this new book

  10. #40
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    Okay. Okay. OKAY.

    This book has not one, not two, but THREE out of nowhere guest stars!

    spoilers:
    Peter Parker, the Spectacular Spider-Menace!
    end of spoilers

    spoilers:
    The Terrifying Turner D. Century!
    end of spoilers

    And saving the best for last...

    spoilers:
    The Spine-Tingling SPIDERS-MAN!!! (And Norman)
    end of spoilers

    But yeah, this issue was 10x more dope than I anticipated. This book is the shit.

  11. #41
    Y'know. Pav's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    Okay. Okay. OKAY.

    This book has not one, not two, but THREE out of nowhere guest stars!

    spoilers:
    Peter Parker, the Spectacular Spider-Menace!
    end of spoilers

    spoilers:
    The Terrifying Turner D. Century!
    end of spoilers

    And saving the best for last...

    spoilers:
    The Spine-Tingling SPIDERS-MAN!!! (And Norman)
    end of spoilers

    But yeah, this issue was 10x more dope than I anticipated. This book is the shit.
    This issue in particular, I think, stood out a little more than others recently. The pathos of Otto/Elliot felt honest and believable, and it's the first thing in a while that has me really interested to see where Otto's path leads next..

    Thinking long-term, if Otto really does gain this newly-developing selflessness -- and the requisite doubt and fear that comes with it -- well, not to be a spoilsport but it makes me salivate at the thought of Otto's eventual tragic turn back to villainy.

    Of all the Spiders we got this issue, I'm most excited about our creepy friend from Spidergeddon. Honestly, during the whole "Spider-Talk," I couldn't stop thinking about how much more I'd prefer to see Ben and Kaine as support in this book. (You'd think they'd want to keep an eye on Otto naturally, especially Kaine.)

    So here's me wishing that eventually we get a couple of Scarlet Spiders keeping tabs (aka spying) on the so-called Superior Spider-Man. I think that'd make for some fun stuff.

    -Pav, who loved the surprise guest villain as well...
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  12. #42
    Incredible Member Jman27's Avatar
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    spoilers:
    How did Peter pay money to San Francisco? But Im glad he show up to give Otto some support as the OG he should take care of his Spider-family
    end of spoilers Great issue
    "He's pure power and doesn't even know it. He's the best of us."-Matt Murdock

  13. #43
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jman27 View Post
    spoilers:
    How did Peter pay money to San Francisco? But Im glad he show up to give Otto some support as the OG he should take care of his Spider-family
    end of spoilers Great issue
    spoilers:
    Judging by the ending, the implication is that it was really Spiders-Man all along, impersonating Peter to slip under Otto's guard and spy on him for Spider-Norman.
    end of spoilers
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  14. #44
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    spoilers:
    Judging by the ending, the implication is that it was really Spiders-Man all along, impersonating Peter to slip under Otto's guard and spy on him for Spider-Norman.
    end of spoilers
    spoilers:
    Yeah, to be honest that sounds a little more believable then Peter going well out of his way to help Otto and "take care of his Spider-Family" (which he barely ever acknowledges).
    end of spoilers

  15. #45
    Incredible Member Jman27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    spoilers:
    Yeah, to be honest that sounds a little more believable then Peter going well out of his way to help Otto and "take care of his Spider-Family" (which he barely ever acknowledges).
    end of spoilers
    spoilers:
    damn it you guys are probably right. Why is Peter so cheap! But it did seem like something he would do though
    end of spoilers
    "He's pure power and doesn't even know it. He's the best of us."-Matt Murdock

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