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Thread: Make DC better

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    Jason Todd says "No." Damian tries to force him anyway.

    Just coming across this image, another thing I will say is that, generally speaking, the art needs to be better.

    I don't know who drew this, but I don't find it inspiring, exciting, or even pleasant to look at. It isn't "wrong", and it isn't "bad", but it also isn't good, relatively speaking. It's just getting the job done and not doing anything beyond that. I see this type of thing a lot at DC and Marvel. Uninspired art that's just "there". It's done by people who can get the job done, but that's all they're doing. This isn't anything I'd accept in my own comic, and I'm only one person without a budget. If an average joe on the internet can shame you up and down the street, you need to reconsider some things.

    *looks at it again" No, it's not something I'd accept. The coloring is too flat. The pickup truck is okay. It's dynamic and clear, which is good, but somehow, I'm just not excited or giddy to look at this. Something is missing.

    I mean, this is the last thing I did. The difference, in my opinion, at least, is very apparent. I wouldn't publish a lot of the stuff they do:
    Last edited by Vampire Savior; 07-14-2019 at 05:54 PM.

  2. #47
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    mikelmcknight72, I very much agree with almost everything you said. Not quite sure on what exactly is being gotten at for #6. I do have a problem with some of the younger heroes (at least as early as directly post-COIE who aren't allowed to do things their own way, but have to have older heroes pop up to either validate or censure them. They got to develop on their own without the golden age heroes telling them what they could and could not do (because they weren't being used anymore) but they still like they get to control every new kid on the block and that irks. So, while I certainly think older heroes should be listened to, I definitely think new heroes should not need to be validated by them.

    I agree so much with 2, 3, 4, and 7 there are just no words.

    2 - Villains should be mostly bad and heroes mostly good with just a few in the gray area (I know I'm lifting that from someone else I read on this message board, but can't recall who)
    3 - So much yes. Old and tired to do it now. And H-E-D capes comment makes me think of it, too.
    4 - Yes, please. So often this happens. And has for so long. And it's particularly egregious in the "event" books that want to shock. HiC is the recent example where it was basically crafting a story then picking who was available.

    7 - Yes, I agree. Deaths should be very rare and generally permanent. And I am so not into Jor-El and FP Batman, either.

    And I'd add - stop the heel-face-heel-face turn. A character may be redeemed and turn good. But they should then not turn evil again. And if they do turn evil again, and then turn back good, the heroes should not trust them. Though this ties heavily into #4 - they just make the character evil or good as suits a particular story and then all the other characters just treat them as whichever they are this week with no sense of wariness or distrust.

    And - just because a villain or anti-hero is popular with the audience doesn't mean heroes should respect, trust, like or work with them anymore than they would if said character was not particularly popular with the audience
    Last edited by Tzigone; 07-14-2019 at 06:14 PM.

  3. #48
    Fantastic Member mikelmcknight72's Avatar
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    Two additional items:

    You can't and shouldn't make story changes in reaction to everything you may read online from fans. You may even bitterly disagree with or take personally those comments. Nevertheless, you are never to use characters as mouthpieces to take shots at those fans.

    With the exception of certain characters, politics should be kept to near zero most of the time. A lot of people are reading comics or engaging in other forms of entertainment to get a brief respite from the overwhelming flood of politics that we encounter every day. Honor that.

  4. #49
    Fantastic Member mikelmcknight72's Avatar
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    Tzigone,

    #6 was aimed at what they did to the JSA and legacy characters with the New 52, as well as how many marriages were undone. It is a bit of a stretch, but I'd extend it to the treatment this year of Dick Grayson and Wally West. While these characters are young adults in universe, they are long-running characters who represent legacy and growth. They, and the JSA, should be respected as characters instead of destroyed or marginalized to the point that restoring the characters is a huge undertaking.

    Regarding the older heroes, I think there can be a should be a middle ground. New perspective can be good. Perspective informed by experience can be good. Ideally, you get some of both. Stories exploring finding that balance can be very good. The recent Justice League/Titans stories where the Titans were shut down was, however, terrible.

    I agree about the heel-face turns and the face-heel turns. I don't think they should never go there, but they go there way too often. When it has been done well, make it the new status quo and don't undo it. I'm a bit more in favor of heel-face turns, as certain villains are far more interesting pursuing a better path. This is true even when redemption is completely out of the question.

  5. #50
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    #6 was aimed at what they did to the JSA and legacy characters with the New 52, as well as how many marriages were undone. It is a bit of a stretch, but I'd extend it to the treatment this year of Dick Grayson and Wally West. While these characters are young adults in universe, they are long-running characters who represent legacy and growth. They, and the JSA, should be respected as characters instead of destroyed or marginalized to the point that restoring the characters is a huge undertaking.
    Preaching to the choir on Dick Grayson. Haven't read as much Wally, though certainly what recently happened was horrible. Definitely agree on the marriages. Can't say much on JSA, as I only ever read them in the '70s crossovers with JLA. I honestly thought they worked better in another world for the sake of the Earth One characters (Superman still being first hero, etc.), but cannot deny that marginalized them.

    Regarding the older heroes, I think there can be a should be a middle ground. New perspective can be good. Perspective informed by experience can be good. Ideally, you get some of both. Stories exploring finding that balance can be very good. The recent Justice League/Titans stories where the Titans were shut down was, however, terrible.
    I meant more in the context of being able to operate independently and without interference in early days for a standalone hero. Example: Jay Garrick had been turned into an in-universe comic book character when Barry became Flash (well, at first). No one came around and told him he was doing the job wrong or tried to advise or whatnot or even told him he was well on his way to herodom. But titles became more intermixed, and heroes stuck around. Now that's great. But now when when a new hero in a new book starts a career, they seem to have to have at least one older hero to come along and either insult them, teach them, or praise them and say they are worthy. They don't get to just work with no one coming around and acting like a senior manager who gets to either train them or decide if they're worthy of the cape like old heroes got to. I think it works pretty well with teen heroes, but with new adult heroes, it's a bit ...patronizing?
    Last edited by Tzigone; 07-14-2019 at 06:28 PM.

  6. #51
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    Bring back Kahn and Berger. I'm only half joking. But we need management that runs a tight ship. Not someone who wants to turn DC into another Image or their personal fan fiction. DC also needs an Ultimates line aimed at new readers. Earth One started as this but it came out too infrequently. New 52 could have been this but they replaced the mainstream universe with it instead. More stand alone, out of continuity, material in regular stores. Like grocery stores and Wal-Marts. The Wal-Mart books are good start. Use that as a jumping on point to create a whole line aimed at "casual" readers. Something they don't have to pick up every month to enjoy the story. Think of the Archie Double Digests. Speaking of out of continuity stuff, branch out with that. More OGNs. More stuff aimed at younger readers. Sell them at book fairs in schools. Most people don't want to be obligated to read something every month. The future is complete stories. Run with it. Slowly phase out continuity altogether. Treat it as more like a book line. Less Harry Potter more Sherlock Holmes. Books that aren't connected to one another.

    Use other media to push DC characters. Use AT&Ts connections to make cartoons. Push books based on them. Bring back Saturday morning cartoons. They literally have their own network. Use it. The current model has to change. It won't last forever. DC can lead the way in this. We have to be honest with ourselves: Floppies have no future. We'll have to get rid of them eventually. They've gotten up to $4.00 a pop. The cost/benefit of comics as a form of entertainment is waning. Branching out to other media is necessary if comics are going to survive.
    Assassinate Putin!

  7. #52
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    Overall idea: change up editorial leadership, focus on hiring good writers first, and change-up the format to run better with a digital landscape - even tanking profits for a while to change up the market’s expectations.

    So, yeah, this ain’t happening, but here’s a more in-depth idea.

    You’ve got 5-7 true weekly books that never stop being published: these are your “core” properties, like Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, etc. And the idea is to use these as launching points for the other books, rotating between them with your stable of writers in “seasons” to spread the love of great writers around to dozens of spin-off characters, and your focus is the digital market-place, so you lower prices and encourage stuff like DC Universe subscriptions - including making promo and history videos to tie current stories into old ones and encourage over-lap (this was inspired by Linkara pointing out the idea for his Cassandra Caintrospective.)

    So... think of it this way:

    Superman is a core book with spin-offs like Superboy, Supergirl, Legion, Luthor, Steel, and Daily Planet: Superboy runs on the first half of the year and then gives way to Supergirl, etc. because the Supergirl arc features some elements from the Red Lantern Supergirl story, a promo video featuring an actual summary of the story and hyping up the new story is released - think something like a WWE hype video.

    Also, as a side-effect of the “season” style writing, characters will be allowed to go through full life stories and embrace the passage of time before any reboot is brought up - and the system is designed for reboots and restarts because you can break between different continuities if you want to.
    Last edited by godisawesome; 07-14-2019 at 07:36 PM.
    Like action, adventure, rogues, and outlaws? Like anti-heroes, femme fatales, mysteries and thrillers?

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  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Didio has been in charge too long
    He sure did.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    I think its foolish to assert that a lot of the discontent with the New 52 that eventually led to DC walking it back didn't have at least a bit to do with it tossing out decades of continuity and established characters. How many people showed up at conventions and voiced their concerns about how their favorite characters were now MIA? I mean, whereswally became a hashtag that was repeated ad nauseam on Twitter. Many people asked the same things about Stephanie Brown and Cassandra Cain. You can't ignore that because it doesn't fit the narrative that continuity doesn't matter. It obviously does.
    And I think it's foolish to say that changing continuity is why it failed. Sure, long time fans complained, but they always complain about everything, and ultimately I think they wouldn't have minded the continuity changes so much if they had been any good, but they weren't - for example, post-Crisis continuity was like the new 52 reboot of it's day and that stuck. Besides, I'm not saying we do like new 52 and replace one continuity for another in some big ongoing reboot - I'm suggesting ditching the whole big shared continuity that lasts for years and years approach, which is fundamentally different from what the new 52 did or was trying to do. I'm suggesting making the whole DC line essentially a bunch of Elseworld and Black Label and the new kids/teens (formerly Zoom/Ink) series where every story is self contained and can be consumed by itself without needing to know decades upon decades of continuity. Something that is fundamentally easier for newbies to get into, which is what DC needs, to stop catering to long term fans and start getting new blood back. I want self contained stories that don't give a crap if you read any other DC books before with essentially iconic media friendly versions of the characters, and I want them for sell outside of the dwindling direct market. And the new 52 isn't even close to that model.

    (And for the record, I'm talking solely about ditching every story must share continuity with each other crap, ditching continuity is not the same as ditching characters, another reason why new 52 failed that had nothing to do with continuity - playing Didio's favorites with characters.)

    Not really. Yes, there are some big ones that are non-canon, some of the most classic stories told in this medium, but many of the non-canon ones are, for lack of a better term, the "basic" DC stories. The ones that people read when first getting into comics and when they aren't as invested yet. They're also still actually in the minority of what one would call great DC stories. For every DKR and Kingdom Come and All Star Superman and New Frontier, there's Long Halloween, the Judas Contract, Sinestro Corps War, Year One, Tower of Babel, Return of Barry Allen, Killing Joke, etc. And yes, a lot of those stories needed to be in continuity to even make sense
    I always heard Long Halloween and Killing Joke were retroactively made into continuity after the fact because they were so popular - and even if they weren't, there's really nothing in them that predicated they needed to be in continuity to be told. I know, I read them, they are perfectly grand stand alone stories that you can easily separate from continuity and have them work just fine. Being a part of a shared continuity doesn't enrich them in the least. And on a similar note, Year One along with all other origin stories don't need to share continuity either because they're the "first stories" of these characters and don't draw on any previous continuity, you can read them without having read any earlier stories. Just because a story does happen in continuity doesn't mean continuity mattered to that story or was required for that story to be told.

    And I never said there weren't plenty of good, classic in continuity stories either, because obviously there are. However, while you could argue that there are an equal number of in and out of continuity classics, remember there are far, far more in continuity stories as a whole than those out of continuity. That there's so much classic stuff out of continuity when there's relatively so much less out of continuity content in general means a higher percentage of out of continuity stories are likely to be better than in continuity stories. And that higher percentage is a good argument.

    There's like dozens of other examples, but I digress
    Thank you. As is I debated even responding to this post because the length of it was daunting (and I can't promise I'll respond if you do another one, I just don't have the mental stamina for long post debates any more like I used to a few years back)...

    Personally, I think the "death" of comics as an industry is a bit overblown, but its probably the same reason why people also say that newspapers are dying. Last I checked, newspapers don't maintain a shared universe. Print is just not as popular as it once was, especially with TV and film being the primary means of entertainment.
    Which is another reason to make stand alone stories that ape the movies and television shows in style/content (not actually in continuity with those shows or movies, but similar enough a newbie would feel like it's familiar to them) in easy reach and access of consumers. Certainly a shared long form continuity isn't helping the industry expand any either.

    The stories, which are the building blocks of a larger shared universe.
    No, the stories which are good and satisfactory in and of themselves whether they build up a shared universe or not. Just tell good stories, don't worry about building a universe off them.

    Again, as I pointed out, it would be foolish to dismiss the fact that, yes, fans were discontented over the fact that DC chucked out many of their favorite characters and stories. Like, social media was abuzz with people asking for Wally West and Stephanie Brown and Cass Cain and for Tim Drake's original origin to be restored.
    And again, ditching characters is a separate issue from ditching continuity, and making Wally West disappear is not what I'm advocating here. If anything, if continuity changes with each writer and having their runs be self contained, it frees them up to use whichever Flash they want. Hey, the DCAU went against comics continuity and had Wally be the first and only Flash after all.

    But those are gonna be my final thoughts on this subject.
    Works for me.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    When did they start dying? Can anyone point to a year-by-year or even decade-by-decade estimates of inflation-adjusted dollars or units sold for comics? It's something I was looking for earlier, but couldn't find.
    It's not exactly a secret that there's not as many comics sold as in decades past, or that many comic fans are an older crowd. And don't know what else you'd call that if not dying. Diminishing maybe?

  11. #56
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    It's not exactly a secret that there's not as many comics sold as in decades past, or that many comic fans are an older crowd. And don't know what else you'd call that if not dying. Diminishing maybe?
    You misunderstand me - I don't doubt sales are dying/diminishing. I want to follow the history of that and see when the dips occurred and so forth. Mostly to see what I want to attribute the decease in sales to. Did tv make a big difference (it did to radio shows)? VCRs? Video games? Do we have statistic on kids purchasing v. adults purchasing (that's a lot more difficult I know). Did the marketing to older ages alienate younger ones or were younger readers already abandoning comics before that. And so forth and so on.

  12. #57
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    Those suckers aren't cheap, like at all. I wouldn't underestimate that factor when it comes to explain why comic books aren't selling as they used too.

    And, well, maybe people are just speaking with their wallets you know. There would be a lot to say about the quality of DC books, and the overall changes in ambiance and tone, of those last 15 or so years.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by superduperman View Post
    Bring back Kahn and Berger. I'm only half joking. But we need management that runs a tight ship. Not someone who wants to turn DC into another Image or their personal fan fiction. DC also needs an Ultimates line aimed at new readers. Earth One started as this but it came out too infrequently. New 52 could have been this but they replaced the mainstream universe with it instead. More stand alone, out of continuity, material in regular stores. Like grocery stores and Wal-Marts. The Wal-Mart books are good start. Use that as a jumping on point to create a whole line aimed at "casual" readers. Something they don't have to pick up every month to enjoy the story. Think of the Archie Double Digests. Speaking of out of continuity stuff, branch out with that. More OGNs. More stuff aimed at younger readers. Sell them at book fairs in schools. Most people don't want to be obligated to read something every month. The future is complete stories. Run with it. Slowly phase out continuity altogether. Treat it as more like a book line. Less Harry Potter more Sherlock Holmes. Books that aren't connected to one another.

    Use other media to push DC characters. Use AT&Ts connections to make cartoons. Push books based on them. Bring back Saturday morning cartoons. They literally have their own network. Use it. The current model has to change. It won't last forever. DC can lead the way in this. We have to be honest with ourselves: Floppies have no future. We'll have to get rid of them eventually. They've gotten up to $4.00 a pop. The cost/benefit of comics as a form of entertainment is waning. Branching out to other media is necessary if comics are going to survive.
    This is basically what I wanted to say, only a lot more concise and elegant than I could have said it. Thanks!

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    And I think it's foolish to say that changing continuity is why it failed. Sure, long time fans complained, but they always complain about everything
    And that is why the New 52 ultimately failed. Because editors brushed off fans' concerns and ignored them to the point where enthusiasm about DC just plummeted. And the sales reflected that.

    and ultimately I think they wouldn't have minded the continuity changes so much if they had been any good, but they weren't - for example, post-Crisis continuity was like the new 52 reboot of it's day and that stuck.
    I've argued this before, but post-Crisis did not change as much as the New 52 did. A lot of franchises actually picked up right where they left off before COIE as if nothing had really happened or with only minor changes: the Titans, the Flash, Batman to a large extent, Green Lantern, the Justice League acknowledged previous iterations, etc.

    Besides, I'm not saying we do like new 52 and replace one continuity for another in some big ongoing reboot - I'm suggesting ditching the whole big shared continuity that lasts for years and years approach, which is fundamentally different from what the new 52 did or was trying to do. I'm suggesting making the whole DC line essentially a bunch of Elseworld and Black Label and the new kids/teens (formerly Zoom/Ink) series where every story is self contained and can be consumed by itself without needing to know decades upon decades of continuity. Something that is fundamentally easier for newbies to get into, which is what DC needs, to stop catering to long term fans and start getting new blood back. I want self contained stories that don't give a crap if you read any other DC books before with essentially iconic media friendly versions of the characters, and I want them for sell outside of the dwindling direct market. And the new 52 isn't even close to that model.
    That's not going to work in a business that thrives on crossovers and events to sell comics. Didn't we just come off of the huge War of the Realms event? Are we not now in the middle of Event Leviathan? Marvel and DC use stories and events to build their universes. Ultimately, that is what attracts fans, whether you like it or not.

    (And for the record, I'm talking solely about ditching every story must share continuity with each other crap, ditching continuity is not the same as ditching characters, another reason why new 52 failed that had nothing to do with continuity - playing Didio's favorites with characters.)
    And they were only able to get rid of those characters by deleting their stories from the history of the DCU. Characters and continuity are not these wholly distinct things. You're trying to divorce them, but they're linked. Characters are only a part of the DCU because of the stories and history that introduces them. They develop into the characters we know and love because of their past stories.

    I always heard Long Halloween and Killing Joke were retroactively made into continuity after the fact because they were so popular - and even if they weren't, there's really nothing in them that predicated they needed to be in continuity to be told.
    I've only ever heard that about Killing Joke but, regardless, the fact that they were added to continuity should show how fans view the importance of having a universe.

    I know, I read them, they are perfectly grand stand alone stories that you can easily separate from continuity and have them work just fine. Being a part of a shared continuity doesn't enrich them in the least.
    Actually, it kind of does. Kiling Joke has had a massive influence on the Batfamily in the decades since its publication. Without it, Barbara Gordon wouldn't have become Oracle and we likely wouldn't have gotten Cassandra Cain or Stephanie Brown as Batgirl, which would be a damn shame.

    And I never said there weren't plenty of good, classic in continuity stories either, because obviously there are. However, while you could argue that there are an equal number of in and out of continuity classics, remember there are far, far more in continuity stories as a whole than those out of continuity. That there's so much classic stuff out of continuity when there's relatively so much less out of continuity content in general means a higher percentage of out of continuity stories are likely to be better than in continuity stories. And that higher percentage is a good argument.
    Not really. Because there's just as much, if not more, out-of continuity stuff that is either bad or just nothing special. That proves that there really isn't anything special about being non-canon. For every DKR, there's an All-Star Batman and Robin and for every Superman: Red Son, there's a Superman: At Earth's End. You're conflating correlation with causation. Also, some of DC's very best stories are ones that are wholly dependent on continuity and the larger shared universe. I just laid out how Judas Contract, Return of Barry Allen, Sinestro Corps War, and Blackest Night all required continuity to even make sense, but there's still COIE, Death of Superman, Knightfall, Batman: RIP, etc.

    Which is another reason to make stand alone stories that ape the movies and television shows in style/content (not actually in continuity with those shows or movies, but similar enough a newbie would feel like it's familiar to them) in easy reach and access of consumers. Certainly a shared long form continuity isn't helping the industry expand any either.
    The idea that movie viewership leads to increased circulation of the comics has been debunked over and over again. And the fact that crossover events always sell extremely well would disagree with you severely.

    No, the stories which are good and satisfactory in and of themselves whether they build up a shared universe or not. Just tell good stories, don't worry about building a universe off them.
    You do realize they tried this approach with DCYou, right? In fact, that was the tag line. And. It. Failed.

    And again, ditching characters is a separate issue from ditching continuity, and making Wally West disappear is not what I'm advocating here. If anything, if continuity changes with each writer and having their runs be self contained, it frees them up to use whichever Flash they want. Hey, the DCAU went against comics continuity and had Wally be the first and only Flash after all.
    Again they were only able to do away with Wally by deleting his stories from continuity. That is the whole point. By doing that, any writer who did want to use Wally West as we knew him couldn't...because those stories where he became Barry's sidekick and eventually became the Flash himself were no longer canon and he no longer existed. Ignoring that is enabling them to do the same thing down the road.
    Last edited by Green Goblin of Sector 2814; 07-15-2019 at 12:25 PM.

  15. #60
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    But those are gonna be my final thoughts on this subject.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    And
    LIAR!

    And moving on...

    that is why the New 52 ultimately failed. Because editors brushed off fans' concerns and ignored them to the point where enthusiasm about DC just plummeted. And the sales reflected that.
    Disagree. It wasn't that editor's brushed off fans' concerns, because if they didn't they just wouldn't be able to print anything, it was that they failed to give anything adequate for fans to latch onto. The stories were ****, end of story.

    I've argued this before, but post-Crisis did not change as much as the New 52 did. A lot of franchises actually picked up right where they left off before COIE as if nothing had really happened or with only minor changes: the Titans, the Flash, Batman to a large extent, Green Lantern, the Justice League acknowledged previous iterations, etc.
    It was still a large scale reboot, fans still complained at the time - but the stories were good.

    That's not going to work in a business that thrives on crossovers and events to sell comics. Didn't we just come off of the huge War of the Realms event? Are we not now in the middle of Event Leviathan? Marvel and DC use stories and events to build their universes. Ultimately, that is what attracts fans, whether you like it or not.[
    No, not really. How many events don't build the universe? How many events change stuff in a bad way that requires years to undo? Whether you want to admit it or not that's not what attracts the fans or makes those events sell - they sell because they're big, loud, bombastic events. The continuity doesn't matter, the shock and awe matters. How many of these events actively ignores characterization over decades of continuity to tell a story *coughHeroesInCrisiscough*?

    And they were only able to get rid of those characters by deleting their stories from the history of the DCU. Characters and continuity are not these wholly distinct things. You're trying to divorce them, but they're linked. Characters are only a part of the DCU because of the stories and history that introduces them. They develop into the characters we know and love because of their past stories.
    And again, you seem to be so focused on New 52 you're missing what I'm actually arguing for - I'm not rebooting the universe, I'm just removing adherence to continuity. You already largely know who these characters are and the general backstory. You didn't need to read a whole new version of Batman's origin and history of the Robins and previous encounters with the Joker to get the all new continuity of Batman: The White Knight did you? That's what I'm talking about here. Maintaining a big decades long narrative isn't needed any more. You can keep all the back stories only know they're fluid and optional. Past stories aren't being thrown out, only adherence to them is.

    I've only ever heard that about Killing Joke but, regardless, the fact that they were added to continuity should show how fans view the importance of having a universe.
    No, it only shows the importance a certain loud segment of the fanbase has on wanting their stories in universe, because they feel if it isn't in continuity it somehow doesn't matter - that if they like a story they'll plead for it to be made continuity so they can feel good about only liking in continuity stories. And those diehard fans will be the death of the story side of the industry because their obsession with decades of things needing to be in continuity to matter makes it harder for casual fans to find an in. It's why most casual, non-monthly floppy buying fans buy things like White Knight and other self contained stories, because it's a hassle free (80 years of history to check up on = hassle) entry point.

    Actually, it kind of does. Kiling Joke has had a massive influence on the Batfamily in the decades since its publication. Without it, Barbara Gordon wouldn't have become Oracle and we likely wouldn't have gotten Cassandra Cain or Stephanie Brown as Batgirl, which would be a damn shame.
    Yes, but most don't. How often has Long Halloween really affected the Bat books that came after? How many of the affects it did have on later books actually matter or are memorable?

    And hell, now that Babs is Batgirl again, when has Cass or Steph had a good story since? Now that they share continuity in a world where only one Batgirl can exist at a time they've become, at least temporarily, redundant.

    Not really. Because there's just as much, if not more, out-of continuity stuff that is either bad or just nothing special. That proves that there really isn't anything special about being non-canon. For every DKR, there's an All-Star Batman and Robin and for every Superman: Red Son, there's a Superman: At Earth's End. You're conflating correlation with causation. Also, some of DC's very best stories are ones that are wholly dependent on continuity and the larger shared universe. I just laid out how Judas Contract, Return of Barry Allen, Sinestro Corps War, and Blackest Night all required continuity to even make sense, but there's still COIE, Death of Superman, Knightfall, Batman: RIP, etc.
    Again, there's a lot less out of continuity stories than in continuity ones, so your math is off there. Percentage wise, a higher proportion of elseworld type stories seem to be good vs their in continuity counterparts. If there were as much stuff out of continuity as there is in, then you'd have an argument. And again, some of those stories like Death of Superman and Knightfall really don't require continuity to work, continuity adds nothing to them. As for the ones that do? So what? I never, ever said continuity couldn't make for great stories. I never made that argument. But if there's nothing special about being non-canon as you so elegantly put it, it is equally true that there is nothing special about being in canon either. There just isn't. And when you mark the things against canon, how it stymies creativity for writers to adhere to what other writers did ten years ago, and how it intimidates some people from even looking into superhero fiction to begin with, it just makes more sense to phase it out. Is a world without adherence to continuity going forward really bad? Will you hate every DC book for not being in canon any more?

    The idea that movie viewership leads to increased circulation of the comics has been debunked over and over again. And the fact that crossover events always sell extremely well would disagree with you severely.
    Movies don't lead to increased circulation true - but it does lead to a short term bump. People buy a few books when a movie comes out. They might never become regular readers, but if there's more books out that are newbie friendly when the movie comes out, they might at least purchase more books in that one time search through Amazon while their interest is piqued, and that's still profitable for DC. And again, the fact that crossover events sell has nothing to do with continuity and everything to do with shock, awe, and spectacle, if not a morbid fascination to see who gets killed off this time.

    You do realize they tried this approach with DCYou, right? In fact, that was the tag line. And. It. Failed.
    I could be wrong, I didn't read DCYou but from what I heard, wasn't the problem with DCYou the fact that people thought they weren't in fact good stories? Can you honestly name a legitimately good story that failed solely because it didn't bother with continuity?

    Again they were only able to do away with Wally by deleting his stories from continuity. That is the whole point. By doing that, any writer who did want to use Wally West as we knew him couldn't...because those stories where he became Barry's sidekick and eventually became the Flash himself were no longer canon and he no longer existed. Ignoring that is enabling them to do the same thing down the road.
    But they brought Wally back, with his history intact...and then had him act entirely out of character. I don't think the problem was ever about continuity with Wally, I think that blame is entirely on the management/editorial side of things.

    Can we agree to disagree? I don't think either of us are going to change our mind here.

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