It's 1985, Crisis arrives - what are you going to do with the New Teen Titans

[Tzigone]

So, we can at least agree that Jason and Kid Devil hang out some more post Crisis, and Jason hangs out with the Titans in general? Not to steal them from Dick, but just so he has friends in general.

Not so much on the last part, if you mean directly post crisis. Maybe Gar a touch. But a 12 year old should not routinely hang out with 20 year olds. I'd actually rather new characters be created for Jason to team up/pal around with. Or non-Titan persons of his age to be used. If you mean later, then I think Tim's Titans (not that I ever wanted Tim or Damian to do Titans, especially to lead, since that's become a Robin thing to do) would be more appropriate than the older ones. Though I still think non-Titan characters would be better. Young adults his age or a couple years older.

[Jackalope89]

Fair enough. Though I'd imagine when learning from Dick at times, he'd also be around the other Titans as well.

Don't want to take Steph from Tim. Too integral to his early character and what not. Cass Cain maybe, though that presents problems with Bruce's timeline of meeting her (though Jason and Cass were practically the same age).

I still think a clone Biz, despite looking like an adult, but being the younger one to Jason would make for a good dynamic. Lobdell hit on gold with that.

[Tzigone]

Fair enough. Though I'd imagine when learning from Dick at times, he'd also be around the other Titans as well.

Don't want to take Steph from Tim. Too integral to his early character and what not. Cass Cain maybe, though that presents problems with Bruce's timeline of meeting her (though Jason and Cass were practically the same age).

I still think a clone Biz, despite looking like an adult, but being the younger one to Jason would make for a good dynamic. Lobdell hit on gold with that.

Sure, around them, but not so much socially. Biz is fine, too.

Who are the other people in Jason's age bracket (though not introduced until later):
Danny Chase (not introducing him would be the way to go)
Mia Dearden
Jaime Reyes (a poor match, I think)
Anita Fite
Cassie Sandsmark
Kon-El
Cissie King Jones
Ray Terrill
Lagoon Boy
Solstice
Marvel family
Any of Lucius Fox's kids

I don't know all of them. One of Fox's kids could work reasonably well with either pre-death or post-resurrection Jason (Tim and Tiffany might have been too old, but since they didn't mind giving him another kid to hang out with Tim and they're remaking universe anyway...). I think Ray could be tweaked a little for young Jason, but I've read very little with him (his dad was a monster in the ones I read, though).

[Aahz]

What happened to Donna was quite a mess though, and probably had the biggest negative change on any character Post-COIE. We also have some of Dick's history being altered, such as his split from Bruce being much more angsty (and stupid) and Superman never having used the Nightwing identity that inspired him to take it up.

The change on how he split from Bruce came afaik never up in the Titans stories and and that Superman inspiered him to use the Nightwing identity was iirc shown the first time im Nightwing Year One (that was published roughly 2 decades after COIE).

[Aahz]

That's an insignificant detail. Wally had taken on the adult hero Flash moniker and book. Whether he joined JL right away (and the JLI took a few months to take effect) or he came in later, he was still there and Dick and Donna were not. Wally and Kyle were both included in "big seven" JL stories. Granted Dick did get his own book, but AFTER Tim had his multiple cover set of minis.

Like I said Wally joining the JLI didn't really feel like a step up.
And the general Problem with the "big seven" JL is that it at some point stops like the "big seven" JL when you add to many "non big seven" members.
And if they had all the big seven mantels handed down to the Titans, the JL had also feeled more like Titans then like big seven.

[CaptCleghorn]

Like I said Wally joining the JLI didn't really feel like a step up.

A decidedly minority opinion.

And the general Problem with the "big seven" JL is that it at some point stops like the "big seven" JL when you add to many "non big seven" members.
And if they had all the big seven mantels handed down to the Titans, the JL had also feeled more like Titans then like big seven.

If you can't see Wally taking the mantle of Flash as an advancement of the character, I'm not sure you had a firm grasp of characters or stories of the last 30+ years.

[Aahz]

If you can't see Wally taking the mantle of Flash as an advancement of the character, I'm not sure you had a firm grasp of characters or stories of the last 30+ years.

I don't see how beeing in a team of B and C listers, is big step up. He was iirc not even in the main JLI, but just in Justice League Europe.

If you can't see Wally taking the mantle of Flash as an advancement of the character, I'm not sure you had a firm grasp of characters or stories of the last 30+ years.

My point is not that it wasn't an advancement for Wally. My point is that it would have been less of an advancement if they had the rest of the Fab5 had done the same.

[Jon Clark]

I'd have had whatever actual events occurred in Crisis happen to the team (Kole dying, Wally losing Barry and having his power limits redefined, Diana being rebooted) but have the Titans actually unaffected by any of it. As far as the Titans knew their histories were the same as Pre-Crisis. The rest of the DCU might not remember Donna, but she'd remember and so would the Titans. Bruce Wayne might remember raising and firing Dick Grayson, have no idea where the inspiration for the Nightwing name came from, but Dick would remember what Bruce and Clark were before history changed (and also be aware that Bruce and Clark had been changed- so no mystery why his memories don't match theirs).

The first Post-Crisis arc would quickly detail that 90+% of the history was unchanged for the team. The team was aware they were returning to a changed world/history and were adapting for the most part. The one exception would be Donna, who in the new history was never part of the team. Her own history as Donna (Troy) Long still occurred just with no Amazons or Wonder Girl. Her old roommate, her husband, her photography career, even her association with Kori all occurred, but as far as anyone outside the team (and Terry Long) know Wonder Girl (or whatever name) is a new hero who appears as a Titan for the 1st time at the end of Crisis. And then we move forward. Re-introduce Donna and never look back to how people remember a Donna-less team. Grayson just accepts his Bruce is gone and works on building a new relationship with the rebooted version.

Outside the book the characters are held to be acting in accord with what they know of the new history, so if the Bat-books want tension between Bruce and Dick it's treated in the Titans as being just how Dick acts around Gotham and doesn't need to align with his personality in Titans. If Donna was to meet Diana she'd treat her as a stranger since this wouldn't be the sister she remembered and Diana would never be told anything about Donna's version since it no longer has relevance except to Donna.

[DrNewGod]

What you have to keep in mind is that COIE happened in the JLA Detroit Era, which was later replaced by the JLI.
Those teams were imo not a big promotion over being a Titans member (it could even be considered a demotion), since they were not really a high profile as the Satellite Era JLA (that dissolved pre COIE) or the Morrison JLA (that roughly a decade after COIE).

I will grant you that it would have taken Byrne, Guice and Perez to agree to put their characters back into the JL to constitute a step up. However, Giffen's JL did add all three of the characters that DC was trying to position as comers at the time (Blue Beetle, Booster Gold, and Captain Atom), plus Dr. Fate and Mr. Miracle (who were also getting new titles of their own post-Legends. Now, none of those five actually worked out, but (along with including Batman) there was an attempt to make the JL an elite organization again. So, in-universe, it wouldn't have been a step backwards for Flash, especially had they done so post-Legends.

[kingaliencracker]

Well, taking away "don't do Crisis in the first place" as an option...

DC should have done a hard-line reboot of their entire line following Crisis, which should have included Titans and Green Lantern. But they didn't, which created a plethora of continuity issues with the characters that were rebooted.

So I guess I would say "completely reboot" regardless of the impact on its continuity. But again, I wouldn't have done Crisis in the first place.

[Aahz]

I will grant you that it would have taken Byrne, Guice and Perez to agree to put their characters back into the JL to constitute a step up. However, Giffen's JL did add all three of the characters that DC was trying to position as comers at the time (Blue Beetle, Booster Gold, and Captain Atom), plus Dr. Fate and Mr. Miracle (who were also getting new titles of their own post-Legends. Now, none of those five actually worked out, but (along with including Batman) there was an attempt to make the JL an elite organization again. So, in-universe, it wouldn't have been a step backwards for Flash, especially had they done so post-Legends.

Wally joined the JLE post Legends, but that phase is completly overshadowed by his time in the Morrison JLA.
Being on a team with Batman, Superman and Woder Woman, is just on different level then being on a team with Captain Atom, Power Girl and Elongated Man.

[DrNewGod]

Wally joined the JLE post Legends, but that phase is completly overshadowed by his time in the Morrison JLA.
Being on a team with Batman, Superman and Woder Woman, is just on different level then being on a team with Captain Atom, Power Girl and Elongated Man.

He joined post-Millenium. The JLI's course (both teams) was already set by then. They had made their bid to be the elite team, and failed.

[CaptCleghorn]

I don't see how beeing in a team of B and C listers, is big step up. He was iirc not even in the main JLI, but just in Justice League Europe.

Justice League vs Teen Titans. Give it some thought.

My point is not that it wasn't an advancement for Wally. My point is that it would have been less of an advancement if they had the rest of the Fab5 had done the same.

And yet you spent way too long arguing Wally's JL role wasn't a big deal. Are those goalposts where you want them yet? As for the other active Titans, Dick and Donna weren't going to replace Bruce and Diana, but they could have been given series to show them as adult heroes in the DC Universe. Garth and Roy weren't doing much at the time so I'd leave them out of it.

[Jokerz79]

I can't help but think of It's 1985 do you know where your children are.

[Aahz]

Justice League vs Teen Titans. Give it some thought.

If the League has members like Vibe and Gypsie and gets their ass kicked by Infinity Inc. Titans.

In case of JLI and JLE it is not really a difference. And that turned anyway soon in comedic book, and it is hard to take them serious if among their biggest villains were guys like Manga Khan or Mister Nebula (Ok that was JLI and not JLE, but JLE wasn't much better). And the way Wally was presented there also didn't do him much of a favour.

And yet you spent way too long arguing Wally's JL role wasn't a big deal.

Here I was speaking about the Morrison era Big Guy JLA not the JLE.