It's 1985, Crisis arrives - what are you going to do with the New Teen Titans

[Tzigone]

I think, for a lot of us, the pre-Crisis years of the New Teen Titans are better than the post-Crisis years. So, it's 1985, what direction do you take the characters, and what story arcs are you going for? You can start either with issue #12 (last issue before Crisis tie-ins) or issue #15 (first issue after).

Right now (please correct me if I get these wrong):
Trigon is dead, and Raven has disappeared
Titans are well-regarded after Trigon's defeat
Lilith is on Olympus
Sarah Simms has a new boyfriend
Steve Dayton is dying (if pre-Crisis) or has used helmet and is mad (post-Crisis)
Kole is either just joined or just killed, depending on pre or post Crisis
Starfire has agreed to go back to her homeworld (if post-Crisis)

[kcekada]

Titans without Perez was a huge part of why the franchise took a bad turn. But who could you replace him with -- maybe Dave Cockrum or John Byrne? Wolfman needed a good artist and a good collaborator.

[CaptCleghorn]

One of the biggest and underestimated parts of Crisis was the passing of the torch from Barry to Wally. That was a statement that this was a third era for DC heroes. With Wally moving on and Dick with a new identity, the options IMHO are to move more Titans to the JL or to set them up as an adult hero team and drop the "Teen" part of their name. Wally got his promotion to grown-up level. Dick and Donna needed to do the same.

As much as I hate editorial direction, this would be what I'd do urging Marv Wolfman to recognize the progression of the team members.

[Jim Kelly]

THE NEW TEEN TITANS was probably a strong argument for the Crisis--in the interest of trying to change all of the DC Universe so it could be on the same level as the Titans--and it's definitely the reason that Wolfman and Perez were put on COIE. But knowing what I know now, I would have had the Titans destroyed in the events of the Crisis.

Even at the time, I was struggling to figure out what DC was going to do--and it ended up not being like what I had imagined. I thought they would have to solve the Robin problem and that some kind of switch would happen--where Dick would end up de-aged in the new continuity and it would be Jason or some other old Robin/partner of Batman who was in the Titans group. Or else all the Titans would be de-aged and become the young Teen Titans they were in the beginning.

None of that happened and DC did back flips to keep the Titans continuity as it was--while throwing out almost everything for the LSH, JSA and even JLA. I would rather have kept as much as possible of those other groups in continuity, while throwing out most of the Titans continuity.

If COIE was going to reboot the DCU, then it should have rebooted with Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman all making their first appearance on the scene and building from there. As long as the adult Titans existed on the same Earth, that couldn't happen.

[king81992]

Don't push Slade as an anti hero and justify all the crimes he committed(or has this already started by now).

[Tzigone]

Don't push Slade as an anti hero and justify all the crimes he committed(or has this already started by now).

I'm not sure. Worst was Tales #55, which wasn't published until after this, but chronologically occurs before it...I think?

I'm really trying to come up with story directions the title could have take. As I've said before, I'd have had Dick and Kori break up at this point and stay broken up. Trigon stay dead (no soul taint for Jericho). Never introduce Wildebeest society. Not retread same old Mento ground with Gar (ending with Raven healing him again) if were picking up pre-COIE before he used the helmet. But knowing what I don't want to happen is much easier than coming up with good storylines for what I want to happen.

Once Raven was returned, free of Trigon, I might like seeing her try to pursue a normal life alongside heroing. Possibly more of college, but more likely a job (so she can pay for her apartment). Give her a few people outside the team to associate with a bit.

[dmhaight]

Yeah, this is a really interesting question. I'd echo a few points of the previous posters - not wanting to see any of that nonsense of turning Slade into an anti-hero (although given the 90s, i think that may've been inevitable regardless of Crisis). I also would not want to see what happened to Jericho through Titans Hunt and beyond take place. If George Perez had stayed on the title, i suspect more positive stories would've been done with this character, because he was clearly more of a Perez creation than Wolfman's. Kole is a weird case because Wolfman's gone on record saying she was introduced in order to be killed off in Crisis, so if Crisis never happened she may never have existed in the first place. The whole Starfire agreeing to go back to Tamaran storyline took place during the Crisis if i recall, so would it still happen as such? i guess it could...i wasn't a big fan of that particular thread and the impacts to Dick and Kory, but in hindsight i suppose it was inevitable that their relationship wasn't leading to living happily ever after.

I too recall how high a profile the Titans were right before Crisis, and then afterwards they really took a dive into stuff like the seemingly endless Brother Blood/Mento stories.

I'm among those that would have liked to see some or all of this Titans lineup "graduate" to JLA level as Wally did at that time due to the death of Barry Allen. Not that Bruce (Batman) or Diana (Wonder Woman) had to die in order for Dick and Donna to take their places, but perhaps creating an expansion team or something that would've been something similar to what James Robinson attempted several years ago with Dick, Donna, Cyborg, Starfire, and others like Supergirl, Jade, Congorilla, etc. in Justice League roles.

The only other option if there was a hard reboot was to de-age them back to early teen years, and that just doesn't work as was clearly demonstrated in the new 52 attempt to say the JLA's only been around for 5 years, much of which is now either retconned or basically ignored.

[Tzigone]

I also would not want to see what happened to Jericho through Titans Hunt and beyond take place. If George Perez had stayed on the title, i suspect more positive stories would've been done with this character, because he was clearly more of a Perez creation than Wolfman's.

I agree. I liked him, but I knew he was going to die before I ever read an issue with him, because I was reading back issues. It was the way he died, and storyline leading up to it that bothered me more than the death. And the death itself had to sort of be a vehicle for Slade. And then what happened with Adeline after was a problem. And don't even get me started on Jericho's resurrection and subsequent death - that never would have been done that way if Jericho hadn't been dragged down that way. I also really didn't like the souls of Azarath being tainted - it turned a victory into a defeat of sorts. Plus, obviously, I wanted Trigon to be really most sincerely dead without aspects of him lingering.

I too recall how high a profile the Titans were right before Crisis, and then afterwards they really took a dive into stuff like the seemingly endless Brother Blood/Mento stories.

A final end to Brother Blood made some sense - with the way the cult was building and such, it wasn't something that could continue forever. I didn't like the Raven-brainwashed bit (or away from the team so long). One issue of it would have been okay, but it seemed to drag on too long.

Mento, was, as I said, a bit of repeat, and also lasted too long. And Hybrid was not good.

[Digifiend]

The only other option if there was a hard reboot was to de-age them back to early teen years, and that just doesn't work as was clearly demonstrated in the new 52 attempt to say the JLA's only been around for 5 years, much of which is now either retconned or basically ignored.

But by New 52, you also had the Young Justice generation, and three more Robins (Steph, Tim, and Damian). It would've worked to de-age the Teen Titans back in the 80s, as they were the only teen generation. The NTT are the same generation as the original lineup (Dick and Donna, of course, were on both rosters).

[Tzigone]

But by New 52, you also had the Young Justice generation, and three more Robins (Steph, Tim, and Damian). It would've worked to de-age the Teen Titans back in the 80s, as they were the only teen generation. The NTT are the same generation as the original lineup (Dick and Donna, of course, were on both rosters).

I don't think so, but wouldn't bet money on it. They were the popular ones. Once they made Dick growing up, moving on beyond Robin, a major character element, taking him back to Robin was a no go. If they'd done it in 1979, I think they could have gotten away with. Definitely in 1970. But after a decade and half of on-going storylines and character growth and then the development for that generation, it's a hard sell. The whole point of the shift in comics was events from issue mattering in the next. If the biggest, most important events get erased, well, that kinda negates that.

I would probably need to see the stats on buyers (what age were readers and how long had they been reading) to really have any sort of informed decision, though.

But the point of the thread was actually meant to be what would you do to keep NTT title from going downhill? Though I guess ending it altogether is an answer.

[Jim Kelly]

Split them off into their own imprint and keep all the continuity from Earth-One intact. Meanwhile have another imprint that actually reboots the whole universe from scratch.

The thing that I liked about the Wolfman and Perez Titans line-up is that they could go anywhere in the already existing Earth-One continuity. Gar crossed over with the Doom Patrol. Donna crossed over with Wonder Woman and the Amazons. Dick was a part of Batman's world. Vic was involved with STAR Labs (which Len Wein originally created for Superman). Wally crossed over with the Flash and all that. Starfire was part of this new bunch of aliens connected to Green Lantern (and indirectly the Legion) which would produce the Omega Men and Lobo. Raven was part of the supernatural world. Roy was part of Green Arrow's gritty adventures. Aqualad was from Atlantis.

If COIE removes a lot of that from the Titans world, suddenly those existing franchises don't exist or have completely new continuity. And maybe this is why the book went downhill (aside from Wolfman being burned out), because Marv had to manufacture a bunch of new continuity for the group and make the Titans fit within the rebooted universe that was evolving. Imagine if the original super-heroes had perished in the Crisis, yet their world still existed. The Titans would be the number one heroes of that world and all of that content would exist in their history.

Meanwhile, another imprint would have rebooted a new universe and creators would have the freedom to invent completely new things. They wouldn't have to worry about the Titans timeline or any of the other leftovers from the old Earth-One, because none of that would be a part of the new universe.

I don't think this would have worked for very long. Either one imprint or the other would prove more successful and DC would just go with that. But it would have been interesting to see those two options co-existing for awhile, before another Crisis (like Zero Hour) changed everything again.

[Twice-named]

drop the "Teen" part of their name.

You mean in 1985 as opposed to 1988?

I too recall how high a profile the Titans were right before Crisis, and then afterwards they really took a dive into stuff like the seemingly endless Brother Blood/Mento stories.

I enjoyed the Brother Blood storyline. The story from that time I didn’t care for was Kory’s political marriage on Tamaran.

[Lee]

Crisis on Infinte Earths should have either:

A) Never been done.

or

B) Lead to a clean slate reboot for every character.

In case A, carry on forward. In case B, hold off on Teen Titans for a few years then introduce the rebooted post-Crisis version.

[Jackalope89]

Kori suddenly having to go back to Tamaran has always been not very good to me. Keep her on Earth.
Donna... Uh, how about no college professor becoming her love interest? Self inserts in most things always strike me as off.
Jason Todd (post-Crisis version) is more involved and actually gets some friends beyond his penpal in Kid Devil (though he and Donna do get along at least). Kid needed more friends. Besides his gargoyle.

[Tzigone]

Kori suddenly having to go back to Tamaran has always been not very good to me. Keep her on Earth.

The worst of it is that she's back just a few issues later. And she and Dick are dating again soon after. The entire storyline just ends up being a waste with no real consequence.

Donna... Uh, how about no college professor becoming her love interest? Self inserts in most things always strike me as off.

Way too late for that change. He was introduced much earlier and they were already married.

Jason Todd (post-Crisis version) is more involved and actually gets some friends beyond his penpal in Kid Devil (though he and Donna do get along at least). Kid needed more friends. Besides his gargoyle.

His brief tenure (and close age to Tim, pre-Flashpoint) left him in an awkward place. He doesn't have his own group of peers - what other kid sidekicks were even around when he was Robin? He ends up getting Kory and Roy, who were Dick's friends first. And in fanfic, he's most often shipped with them or with one his brother's exes (or with Tim or Dick) . And they even hit on the Barbara thing in canon (terrible idea). It's difficult for him to find people to hang out with who weren't already tied to Dick of Tim, because they have a lot connections in the DC Universe. He did get his own group with Artemis and Biz, even if they aren't exactly peers.