View Poll Results: Can Jean & Emma Be Friends?

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  • Yes

    58 42.96%
  • No

    77 57.04%
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  1. #241
    Astonishing Member Ulfhammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post
    You haven't addressed the fact that there is a period between Morrison's run up to Messiah Complex with Scott acting like Scott.
    Scott acting like Scott is verily subjective. During NXM Scott never really felt in charge to me. It felt more like the Charles, Jean and Emma show for a good chunk of it. I did feel Scott was much more in charge in Whedon's run and frankly Emma really never felt like a co-leader. More like a trusted adviser deeper in his council than the others. The calls were ultimately his. That's already a change from his NXM behavior. That's influence.

    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post
    Everyone influences everyone. But the situation, the no more mutants, purifiers thing affected Cyclops the most. Emma had been present for two years prior to that with not much change in leadership. He was the good cop and she was the bad cop
    Emma and Jean had a disproportionate effect on Scott. Show me any other character that had that much on a impact on a main character in the X-Men as they had on him. You won't find it.

    All Decimation did was radicalize the methods that the characters were already leaning towards. Logan leaned into homicidal rampages. Guess who else did? Yup, Scott. This clearly shows a break from his previous behavior. And please don't suggest that Decimation was the most peril mutants had ever been in. The O5 and the Brotherhood had been throwing themselves at each other in battle for ages prior to this and they represented most of the mutants anyone knew to exist in the Silver Age. The entire population of Earth has been threatened countless times (including all the mutants) and yet Scott had never once advocated for proactively wiping out their enemies. Something had changed and sorry, it wasn't the stakes.

    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post
    When Emma pulled back her influence and took a back seat that is when he became the de facto leader and created X-force. That was his first step into that sort of radical leadership.
    But what caused the radical change? It can't be the level of crisis because that's been seen countless times before. There was more going on here.

    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post
    Emma was good before NXM. She became even MORE heroic during this period. Which is what made a portion of people complain.
    Talk about hedging your position. It's fine. I don't really disagree.

    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post
    Your whole hypothesis falls apart. As soon as Emma takes a back seat that's when X-force is created. That is just plain fact

    Scott made those choices by himself. That was all him. He chose that path. He says so. He takes full responsibility. This has been stated numerous times
    I'm saying she'd already had an influence on Scott that goes back to Morrison. I'm not talking about responsibility. I'm not trying to blame Emma explicitly for what Scott did. I'm talking about the factors that mould perspective and decision making. Emma was one of those factors. Jean would have been a factor too, but she'd have been pushing Scott subtlety in a different direction. I don't see how any of this is controversial.

  2. #242
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    And please don't suggest that Decimation was the most peril mutants had ever been in
    I would argue that Operation Zero Tolerance was worst for mutants overall personally. But feel free to disagreed.
    "Wow. You made Spider-Man sad, congratulations. I stabbed The Hulk last week"
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  3. #243
    Astonishing Member Ulfhammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    She'd offer friendship and then say "psych, gotcha!"? Is... is that what you're saying? That isn't exactly screwing someone over.
    Yeah and it's not Jean at all. She's not a pushover but she'd not vindictive or flippant either. Maybe someone's thinking more of Jeen?

  4. #244
    Astonishing Member Ulfhammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    I would argue that Operation Zero Tolerance was worst for mutants overall personally. But feel free to disagreed.
    I don't. So that begs the question of what factors pushed Scott to become more radicalized?

  5. #245
    Extraordinary Member ExodusCloak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulfhammer View Post
    Scott acting like Scott is verily subjective. During NXM Scott never really felt in charge to me. It felt more like the Charles, Jean and Emma show for a good chunk of it. I did feel Scott was much more in charge in Whedon's run and frankly Emma really never felt like a co-leader. More like a trusted adviser deeper in his council than the others. The calls were ultimately his. That's already a change from his NXM behavior. That's influence.
    Did you read Academy X? Scott vetoed Emma several times. Did you read Austens run? Milligan? There's a huge chunk of issues you're missing. It wasn't just NXM Whedon Messiah Complex.



    Emma and Jean had a disproportionate effect on Scott. Show me any other character that had that much on a impact on a main character in the X-Men as they had on him. You won't find it.
    spoilers:
    Charles Francis Xavier
    end of spoilers

    All Decimation did was radicalize the methods that the characters were already leaning towards. Logan leaned into homicidal rampages. Guess who else did? Yup, Scott. This clearly shows a break from his previous behavior. And please don't suggest that Decimation was the most peril mutants had ever been in. The O5 and the Brotherhood had been throwing themselves at each other in battle for ages prior to this and they represented most of the mutants anyone knew to exist in the Silver Age. The entire population of Earth has been threatened countless times (including all the mutants) and yet Scott had never once advocated for proactively wiping out their enemies. Something had changed and sorry, it wasn't the stakes.
    I'm going to stop you right there. Decimation was the most dire situation mutants have ever been in full stop. It was the longest and most grim. No future mutants. Being hunted by every mutant hating group. Follow second coming etc with more veteran deaths and maimings then any other story

    A bus explosion on their doorstep

    Also I'm going to stop you at all decimation did. Because that was the first time Cyclops adopted killing. All by himself. He consulted with Wolverine and came to this decision. This was AFTER Emma withdrew her leadership and took a back seat due to the Torn arc.


    But what caused the radical change? It can't be the level of crisis because that's been seen countless times before. There was more going on here.
    This is not even debatable. It was the crisis because he was fine for all those issues you skipped over

    Almost every X-Men said this in some form.
    Beast had a mini series
    Exodus said it
    Magneto said it
    Scott said it
    Bishop said it
    Xavier said it

    And countless others

    In fact Wolverine said no other X-Men villain has ever hurt the X-Men the way Wands did. Not even Cassandra Nova

    Nimrod said it was the opportune time to erase mutants because they were at their weakest in history.

    Stryker said this was the point that God sent as it was a period in Nimrods database where mutants were at their lowest. I could go on
    Last edited by ExodusCloak; 07-15-2019 at 05:57 PM.

  6. #246
    Extraordinary Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    She'd offer friendship and then say "psych, gotcha!"? Is... is that what you're saying? That isn't exactly screwing someone over.
    Well something like offering friendship just to irritate Emma. or even something meany

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    I agree that Emma wouldn't ask Jean for forgiveness. I think the people that have most forgotten Jean's strong personality are Marvel themselves.
    I don't think marvel forgot. She just not explosive because there isn't a reason for that

    Those people are just as wrong as the ones who think that Scott is a bad influence on Jean. The truth is that this issue is more complicated than "that character is wholly responsible for the bad things that are happening to my fave!".
    maybe, but it happen all the time. People think that Scott character started on Morrison run
    Last edited by spirit2011; 07-15-2019 at 05:56 PM.

  7. #247
    Ultimate Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    I would argue that Operation Zero Tolerance was worst for mutants overall personally. But feel free to disagreed.
    OZT? That was over almost as soon as it started and had no lasting effects on mutantkind. DeciMation really did a number which went on for quite some time. Heck Dani Moonstar JUST got repowered after 14 years

  8. #248
    "Emma is STILL right! Vegeta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulfhammer View Post
    I don't. So that begs the question of what factors pushed Scott to become more radicalized?
    Deadly Genesis and learning Xavier mindwiped him a couple of times may have led to a rejection of previous methods more in line with Xavier's view. He also gave sanctuary to Magneto, who slowly became part of his inner circle, more or less. I dunno, just spitballing here.
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  9. #249
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    Should Jean and Emma be friends?

  10. #250
    Mighty Member KangMiRae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Should Jean and Emma be friends?
    No. That's boring.
    Admiral of a fleet of shipsórelationships!
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  11. #251
    Extraordinary Member ExodusCloak's Avatar
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    Sinister can use their genetic information to create a child then send the child back in time.

    This child is known as

    spoilers:
    Scott Summers
    end of spoilers

  12. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Should Jean and Emma be friends?
    That is a different question.

    But, the answer is still no. In-universe, because it wouldn't make sense given their personalities and history with each other and Scott. On a meta level, because, as KangMiRae said, it would be boring.

  13. #253
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    No, it would be boring af. Hopefully Hickman leans into their rivalry even more.

  14. #254
    Fire and life incarnate! phoenixzero23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Punch Dimension. View Post
    No, it would be boring af. Hopefully Hickman leans into their rivalry even more.
    I think that would only hurt everycharacter and all their relationships.
    If they have to interact to some extend I would prefer it to be on extremely difficult situations and colaborating for necessity.
    Ranking of favorite characters
    Phoenix/Jean, Cyclops, Wolverine, Storm

    My ships: Jean/Scott, Wanda/Vision, Scott/Logan, Rogue/Gambit, Storm/Black Panther.
    I have very biased opinions and i like to voice for the things i like but I'm not trying to deppreciate other things. The line is thin and blur sometimes.

  15. #255
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    I think they should be friends or at least cordial with each other. That doesn't mean I think they should be BFF!!! Because honestly their personalities are just two opposite for that to ever happen. But I think a friendly rivalry between the two would be a new interesting direction for them, put an end to the stupid open hostility and have them actually move one.

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