View Poll Results: Can Jean & Emma Be Friends?

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  • Yes

    59 43.38%
  • No

    77 56.62%
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  1. #196
    The King Fears NO ONE! Triniking1234's Avatar
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    With regards to the O5 thing, there was already a story before Bendis and Schism with a cross-over with the O5 team so Bendis' pitch wasn't really original; he just dragged it out.

    Don't forget most of the New X-Men era mutants.
    "Cable was right!"

  2. #197
    Ultimate Member Tycon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stormphoenix View Post
    I don't think Jean and Emma can be friends. I think that Ship has sailed a LONG time ago.

    Honestly, I don't think anyone can truly be Emma's friend without having doubts of her stabbing them in the back.

    I mean lets count. How many members of the X-Men can we say are ACTUALLY friends with Emma Frost???
    Aside from what CRaymond said, most of her students would still die for her. Karma respects her and they trained together for a bit, but I don’t know if they’re “friends.”

  3. #198
    BANNED spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Alpha View Post
    Sure, the point of the 05 was them seeing all the things that happened to them after all that time. If Jean was alive, the impact of her coming back as a teen would be virtually non-existent for the other characters and for teen Jean herself.
    One thing has nothing to do with another. Bendis would use adult Jean and avoid all the O5 direction less drama

    Quote Originally Posted by FUBAR007 View Post
    It was Alonso and Mark Paniccia's idea to bring Jean back. They asked Matt Rosenberg how he'd do it, and his pitch is what got him the gig writing Phoenix Resurrection.

    I think Alonso was willing to bring her back because they'd killed off Scott. They could resurrect Jean without having to deal with whether to put her and Scott back together. Quesada-era and Alonso-era Marvel editorial HATED their relationship. We'll get an idea of how Cebulski-era editorial feels about it this Wednesday.
    That is what i don't get, they waste time to show how much Scott loved emma and how the couple was perfect, but then are afraid to bring Jean so they would have to break their fave couple. I don't get it
    Last edited by spirit2011; 07-15-2019 at 12:23 PM.

  4. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    Aside from what CRaymond said, most of her students would still die for her. Karma respects her and they trained together for a bit, but I don’t know if they’re “friends.”
    Sure, her Students. But I was more so talking about the Veterans of the X-Men. Cyclops and Maybe Iceman I can say are buddy buddy. But the rest Emma is like a Co-workers to the Veterans of the X-men. They just work with her for the time being. But don't like her, but yet they tolerate her.

    Quote Originally Posted by CRaymond View Post
    Iceman, Beast, Wolverine, *Cyclops*, Jubilee, Banshee, Professor X.
    I would assume Nightcrawler could. Gambit, Archangel, Psylocke would be amused.

    Storm, Kitty, Bishop, would find her distasteful, but is a professional.
    So to that list I wouldn't exactly say they would be Friends with Emma. More like an acquaintance .

    Iceman, Cyclops are the only Two I think actually likes Emma.
    Last edited by stormphoenix; 07-15-2019 at 12:24 PM.

  5. #200
    BANNED spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RachelGrey View Post
    Let's be perfectly honest here, Scott flirted with Betsy when he was with Jean, and he had an affair with Emma while he was married to Jean. People like to blame the woman, but all Scott had to do was say no and walk away, that's not what he did.
    Betsy and Scott were victis of kwannon and Scott ran away from Betsy.

    If Emma hadn't had an affair with Scott and stayed out if it, Jean and Scott were still on their way to ending in divorce. Jean was becoming obsessive because of the Phoenix inside her, she was always trying to get in Scott's head all the time even when he wanted to be by himself. Scott wasn't talking to Jean about what he was going through after Apocalypse. In the real world unless they actually got some serious couples counseling they were on their way to divorce before Emma even touched their relationship.
    Couples have crisis and sometimes they overcome it. A crisis doesn't mean a divorce

    Nad Jean wasn't entering Scott mind alll the time and for sure she wasn't obssessive.

    As for Jean and Emma, I got a glimpse of what I would like to see in the Jean Grey series. I like that they were able to set aside their differences to work toward common cause, and even though I don't think they will ever be best friends, I think they are quite capable of being mature intelligent women and working together as colleagues.
    Then their interactions gonna suck, because Emma wasn't not even a little mature

  6. #201
    Extraordinary Member Omega Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    One thing has nothing to do with another. Bendis would use adult Jean and avoid all the O5 direction less drama
    But Bendis WANTED to use the 05. He wasn't forced by Marvel. Like he said, it was an idea that floated around Marvel at the time, but only him and Jeph Loeb liked it.

  7. #202
    BANNED fsger's Avatar
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    Jean has already other characters trying to leech her, in fact Emma has done so for more than a decade.
    They don't need to be friends or exist at the same space-time. Everything will be better if they don't even ever talk again to each other.

  8. #203
    Astonishing Member Knives's Avatar
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    I do not believe it and do not think it's necessary.

    What does not mean that there can be no respect between them and both already show that they can work together despite resentments when necessary.

    For me their relationship does not have to change.

  9. #204
    Astonishing Member Ulfhammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post
    There was a honeymoon period where Emma carried Cyclops balls in her purse that was right up to Messiah Complex.

    In regards to X-force that was Cyclops Emma didn't know about it. That step he took together with Wolverine.

    So if you're arguing that the X-Men became darker because of her I disagree.

    Emma went around trying to protect him from that path when she did know. An example being Cyclops wanting to rub it in Storms face when Storm accidentally killed that mutant with a hurricane. And Emma said don't do that, I'll say he died from my mind probe.

    Cyclops decided to go down that path without Emma because that was the situation mutants were in since Messiah Complex.

    So yes Emma can make him assertive but Cyclops made that choice all by himself in fact at the time he was deliberately keeping her at a distance

    The same in AxX Emma and Scott disagreed with each other there regarding Hope. Emma wanted Hope to be the one who chooses.

    The same in Carey's run. Where Xavier is being scolded by Scott. Emma once again did not actually agree with Scott.

    The same wit y Utopia where they argue about moving everyone to one spot. Emma had disagreements with that too.

    Scott did his own thing. Emma making him assertive is not an ideology. Unless you are going to argue that Jean would have kept him a secondary appendage.

    The difference is maybe you could argue that Emma trusted Scott over her own better instincts. Emma brujg supportive to being an enabler perhaps. That means you're arguing Jean wouldn't have been supportive which is yet to be seen. All we know is she was disapproving in AvX
    I believe that Emma has always operated on an ends justify the means philosophy. She's made numerous statements to that effect to cover all manner of behavior from insulting teammates to suggesting "putting down" comrades that have gone off the rails such as the situation with Wanda. She frequently lies, manipulates or deceives to achieve her goals and she uses her incredible mental power casually to alter minds as she sees fit. She's capable of killing when the needs arises, including her own sister who did have it coming by the way. She will torture her students if she thinks it will help them survive and she's not above doing the same to her teammates.

    Prior to Emma joining the main X-Men team in NXM, the team was mostly devoid of this kind of behavior. Charles did demonstrate some of this but he certainly didn't espouse this attitude and was far less pragmatic all considered than Emma. Logan could have been accused of this from time to time too, but he really didn't have any sway over Scott's decision making. Emma joining the team brought this attitude to the fore, especially for Scott. Her methods created an atmosphere of permissibility when to it came to approaches that would previously have never been considered. Her relationship with Scott IMO, had a far greater impact on him then you are giving her credit for.

    Yes, she may not have been on board with all his decisions (There's no reason to believe she wouldn't have been on board with X-Force), but the fact that he even considered some of them is a testament to her influence. Go back to the language she used during their affair, which I think is where this began to take root. Throughout that period, whenever Scott wonders if they should stop or it's gone too far, she basically says "what we're doing is ok". Once Scott took that leap, his ability to rationalize increasingly pragmatic behavior grew in the years that followed.

    Would any of this have happened if Jean was still in the picture? I highly doubt it, at least not in the same way. There's two reasons I say that. First, Jean wouldn't have simply disagreed on some of this with Scott. She would have stopped him. That's one major difference between the two of them. Secondly, their rapport, which certainly would have been reestablished if their relationship would have survived would have prevented Scott from hiding much of anything from her. Beyond those reasons, I suspect that Jean was a moderating force for Scott, in a similar way to how I'm suggesting Emma was a pragmatic force. It's less about what she actually did and more about her effect on Scott specifically and the rest of the cast to a lesser extent.

    It may be easy to infer that this is a criticism of Emma and to some extent that's true. I don't find Emma to fit the traditional heroic model. That doesn't mean that she's not be of value to the X-Men. Of course she has, on many occasions, some of which are verily recent. I just don't see how the way she operates, or rather her influence on the leadership of the X-Men is at all compatible with Jean's presence and an equal, if not greater influence. They'd be locked in constant conflict and when it came to choosing sides, I think you know how the majority of the X-Men would vote. The situation, over the long haul would be untenable for Emma. The only way to avoid this is to avoid the kind of mutant extinction plot lines that back the X-Men so deep into the moral corner for some many years. If the stakes aren't very high, maybe this could work.

  10. #205
    Ultimate Member ExodusCloak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulfhammer View Post
    I believe that Emma has always operated on an ends justify the means philosophy. She's made numerous statements to that effect to cover all manner of behavior from insulting teammates to suggesting "putting down" comrades that have gone off the rails such as the situation with Wanda. She frequently lies, manipulates or deceives to achieve her goals and she uses her incredible mental power casually to alter minds as she sees fit. She's capable of killing when the needs arises, including her own sister who did have it coming by the way. She will torture her students if she thinks it will help them survive and she's not above doing the same to her teammates.

    Prior to Emma joining the main X-Men team in NXM, the team was mostly devoid of this kind of behavior. Charles did demonstrate some of this but he certainly didn't espouse this attitude and was far less pragmatic all considered than Emma. Logan could have been accused of this from time to time too, but he really didn't have any sway over Scott's decision making. Emma joining the team brought this attitude to the fore, especially for Scott. Her methods created an atmosphere of permissibility when to it came to approaches that would previously have never been considered. Her relationship with Scott IMO, had a far greater impact on him then you are giving her credit for.

    Yes, she may not have been on board with all his decisions (There's no reason to believe she wouldn't have been on board with X-Force), but the fact that he even considered some of them is a testament to her influence. Go back to the language she used during their affair, which I think is where this began to take root. Throughout that period, whenever Scott wonders if they should stop or it's gone too far, she basically says "what we're doing is ok". Once Scott took that leap, his ability to rationalize increasingly pragmatic behavior grew in the years that followed.

    Would any of this have happened if Jean was still in the picture? I highly doubt it, at least not in the same way. There's two reasons I say that. First, Jean wouldn't have simply disagreed on some of this with Scott. She would have stopped him. That's one major difference between the two of them. Secondly, their rapport, which certainly would have been reestablished if their relationship would have survived would have prevented Scott from hiding much of anything from her. Beyond those reasons, I suspect that Jean was a moderating force for Scott, in a similar way to how I'm suggesting Emma was a pragmatic force. It's less about what she actually did and more about her effect on Scott specifically and the rest of the cast to a lesser extent.

    It may be easy to infer that this is a criticism of Emma and to some extent that's true. I don't find Emma to fit the traditional heroic model. That doesn't mean that she's not be of value to the X-Men. Of course she has, on many occasions, some of which are verily recent. I just don't see how the way she operates, or rather her influence on the leadership of the X-Men is at all compatible with Jean's presence and an equal, if not greater influence. They'd be locked in constant conflict and when it came to choosing sides, I think you know how the majority of the X-Men would vote. The situation, over the long haul would be untenable for Emma. The only way to avoid this is to avoid the kind of mutant extinction plot lines that back the X-Men so deep into the moral corner for some many years. If the stakes aren't very high, maybe this could work.
    Wolverine operates the same way. He still functions as an X-Men. He even supported the Emma's plan regarding Wanda.

    Emma had a rapport with Scott that's how she knew Xavier has invaded his mind in Legacy. The blackbox he was using kept Jean out as well as per him.

    Jean may or may not have stopped him. Seeing how no other X-Men did. If placed in the same situation she would have begrudgingly accept it like Nightcrawler.

    So once again I don't see how this affects ideology in regards to mutant human relations. Wolverine operates on several teams using the same ideology as Emma

  11. #206
    Extraordinary Member Omega Alpha's Avatar
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    It's kind of hard to debate how much of an influence Jean would have over Scott's behavior because first you need to ask whether Jean would be the host of the PF or not, and the answer changes the plots considerably.

  12. #207
    Mighty Member Hi-Fi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post

    The same in Carey's run. Where Xavier is being scolded by Scott. Emma once again did not actually agree with Scott.
    Excuse me?


  13. #208
    Ultimate Member ExodusCloak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hi-Fi View Post
    Excuse me?

    I'm referring to X-Men 188 where Xavier asks her to make Cyclops see sense. And then she says he's what you made him they all are. She's not agreeing with Scott she actually is agreeing with Xavier but he is the one who made them that way.

    She acts as a mediator during Messiah Complex between them as well.

    And then he thanks her in Dark X-Men

  14. #209
    Astonishing Member Ulfhammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post
    Wolverine operates the same way. He still functions as an X-Men. He even supported the Emma's plan regarding Wanda.

    Emma had a rapport with Scott that's how she knew Xavier has invaded his mind in Legacy. The blackbox he was using kept Jean out as well as per him.

    Jean may or may not have stopped him. Seeing how no other X-Men did. If placed in the same situation she would have begrudgingly accept it like Nightcrawler.

    So once again I don't see how this affects ideology in regards to mutant human relations. Wolverine operates on several teams using the same ideology as Emma
    None of that even attempts to deny Emma's influence over Scott, and therefore over the general direction of the franchise for the last 15 years.

    Let's take it down to it's most basic level. Let's assume that Scott controlled the overall direction of the X-Men since Astonishing. Are you really suggesting that Emma and Jean could have been substituted interchangeably in those years without there being any impact on how Scott led or the outcomes of those decision? Of course there would because they would be advocating for completely different approaches. What may be acceptable to one simply isn't to the other. I think both characters are developed enough for those differences to be clear.

    As for Jean stopping him, perhaps that's overstated. I don't recall significant points of difference in their approaches over the years they were together. That feeds into the overall narrative I'm describing. Because Jean was a moderating force, Scott was more moderate and more likely to be open to convincing. Because Emma was a more pragmatic and assertive force, Scott became more pragmatic and assertive including being less likely to compromise, including with her. It's all connected.

  15. #210
    BANNED spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Alpha View Post
    But Bendis WANTED to use the 05. He wasn't forced by Marvel. Like he said, it was an idea that floated around Marvel at the time, but only him and Jeph Loeb liked it.
    he wanted to use in the circumstances Marvel presented him. I doubt anyone would choose write a teen version instead of the adult.

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