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  1. #76
    Astonishing Member CRaymond's Avatar
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    Ugh yeah. I immediately though Colossus too. I’d want HER X-Men based out of NYC... because I’m SHOCKED Harp didn’t pick Iceman as her elemental. I was hoping to bridge the Iceman problem with this X-Men White idea. I want him to be CFO of Frost Enterprises, babysit her addict brother, and patrol Long Island.

    As for Piotr: Colossus would leave the School to pursue a painting career, and Emma would be his patron. In exchange, he has to work with her morally gray team, which isn’t too crazy since he was on a few X-Forces.

    I still need to think some more. A team with Colossus and Iceman needs some darker personalities.

  2. #77
    Chris-chan of X-fans Maestroneto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glio View Post
    Emma and Colossus had an endearing friendship between them, she appreciated his artistic side. I would like to see more interaction between them. It's like watching her with a puppy.

    Nothing endearing about that Emma character assassination. ďYouíre never aloneĒ???

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by The tall man View Post
    Beast did nothing wrong and he sure as hell don't need to apologize to the X-men or Cyclops for anything. His intelligence has saved the X-men's collective asses numerous times and it's not a crime to oppose or challenge Cyclops. Hank is probably the least respected X-man and often taken for granted. Need some problem solved, need some cure, just call Hank; he's good for it. Truly Beast should tell the X-men to fuck off and go rejoin the Avengers or go be science professor or anything that will make him happy. Wonder if he still knows magic? I would really like for Beast to join another team, it would serve him well to get away from the X-men.
    Henry risked destroying the very fabric of universe just to spite Scott by bringing the 05 back to the present, which now also led to the death of Scott and Jean's son. And while at the same time he was calling Scott evil and risking destroying mutantkind or whining about X-force, not only he had no problems Logan having his own version that murdered a child and was building weapons of mass destruction with Maximus the Mad and blowing up planets.

  4. #79
    Astonishing Member cranger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post
    And importantly, she wouldn't be crazy. She'd be the Emma that we all know and love and that we got up until she went insane during Death Of X. She'd be stable and she would be powerful, and competent in more ways than one.
    Well, if anything Rosenberg did right, Emma is certainly not crazy. Maybe a bit desperate at the moment, but definitely stable.

    I'm going to take this back to what I was talking about before. Using Emma would be a good way to merge mutants back into the world. The funny thing is, this is going to be by going back to the way things were, but then expanding them.

    Emma used to have a school. She was training her own team. They were not X-Men. They do not need to be X-Men. They are people who can and will create their own identity and mission goal. They can be at odds with the X-Men, or allies.

    I also like her in the Hellfire Club for similar reasons. It creates a distinction from the X-Men. It gives her more characters that her book can use that don't need to be touched by the X-Men book. The HFC is constantly seeing power struggles, as power shifts, it creates drama. (assuming she has a book, if not, it also makes any appearances of the character and her school more exciting)

    By solving Emma Frost in such a way, a template is created that shows the basically there should be no more template for X-books. They should be as loosely related as possible. Emma Frost is more interesting in her own story, not just showing the same story as Scott, Jean, Ororo and Logan.

  5. #80
    Fantastic Member mikelmcknight72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Alpha View Post
    Henry risked destroying the very fabric of universe just to spite Scott by bringing the 05 back to the present, which now also led to the death of Scott and Jean's son. And while at the same time he was calling Scott evil and risking destroying mutantkind or whining about X-force, not only he had no problems Logan having his own version that murdered a child and was building weapons of mass destruction with Maximus the Mad and blowing up planets.
    Motive & intent matter. In the real world, many crimes have multiple possible convictions/consequences. Which is applicable is determined by motive & intent.

    For Hank, he intended to only have the O5 in the present for a brief time. He hoped that encountering the O5 would pull Scott back from the relatively extremist direction in which he'd went. That doesn't make it ok, but it does make it understandable. I seem to recall there also being an implication that Hank's health issues may have affected his judgment as well. To summarize, foolhardy risk, good motive, good intentions, possible health-related impairment of judgment. I'd say leniency is merited, especially considering the leniency received by characters guilty of far worse crimes and comparable or lesser mitigating factors.

    As for his M-Pox related "transgressions", he was working towards a cure and prevention of a war of mutants vs Inhumans. Let's face it, nearly every character involved in that story seemed to have severe plot-induced stupidity.

  6. #81
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    It wasn't just the bringing the 05 to the present, though.

  7. #82
    hate cant reach you here Harpsikord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CRaymond View Post
    Ugh yeah. I immediately though Colossus too. Iíd want HER X-Men based out of NYC... because Iím SHOCKED Harp didnít pick Iceman as her elemental. I was hoping to bridge the Iceman problem with this X-Men White idea. I want him to be CFO of Frost Enterprises, babysit her addict brother, and patrol Long Island.
    It's probably my biases but I struggle to tear Iceman away from Jean. As for New York, everything happens in New York. I wanted a change of pace

    As for Piotr: Colossus would leave the School to pursue a painting career, and Emma would be his patron. In exchange, he has to work with her morally gray team, which isnít too crazy since he was on a few X-Forces.
    Colossus is a VERY good idea, and to be honest the only reason I didn't include him is because Joanna needs more love

    "I'll always love you, Jean Grey." "I'll always love you too, Scott Summers." - Scott Summers and Jean Grey

  8. #83
    Astonishing Member CRaymond's Avatar
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    Completely agree with you about New York City and Frenzy. Those could each be problem topics to deal with.

    ///I don’t have a problem so much cause I’m still working with a President Sabretooth context, and most X-Men squads are either international like Storm’s team, or underground like Scotts. I don’t mind putting Iceman in New York cause I think he needs some more Peter Parkerish elements.///

    That said, I’m very interested in your tastes —keeping Iceman and Jean together? Tell me everything.

  9. #84
    hate cant reach you here Harpsikord's Avatar
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    Alright... What to do about a problem like Iceman.

    Iceman's a character that people just fundamentally don't seem to understand, or at least has been for a very, very long time. I'd say that the last time, before Sina Grace's original run of his solo title, that someone understood Bobby was Marjorie Liu in Astonishing X-Men, and before that it was Mike Carey, and even before that it was Scott Lobdell, and Fabian Nicieza. There have been a lot of writers to write him in between all of these writers together, most notably probably Jason Aaron, Chuck Austen, and even Brian Michael Bendis - and none of them got who he actually is as a character, some even less than others. As controversially written as his coming out was, Bendis spurred Iceman to new heights when he did it, and now Iceman is the most popular gay (not LGBTQIA+, that's Wonder Woman) character in all of comics.

    Iceman needs to be taken seriously and he needs to be understood. He's not just the funny guy; Marjorie Liu, Mike Carey, Scott Lobdell, and Fabian Nicieza all made it clear that the funny guy thing was just an act. Hell, even Bendis touches on that. It's a facade that Iceman puts on so that people don't look too closely or take him too seriously because he doesn't exactly want the sheer amount of responsibility. He wants to be seen as the funny guy, and yeah, he is funny, but in actuality that's only part of who he is. He's also smart, charismatic, tenured, and powerful. He's been doing the superhero thing since he was fourteen, and he's in his mid-twenties now. It's basically been his entire adult life, and the majority of his teenage years. What does that mean for him? Explore that. Explore more about him being an out gay man in 2019 America, while also being a superhero. What does it mean to be a public gay superhero?

    I also think that Iceman should be surrounded by positive influences that he can play well off of to be better defined as a viable, relatable character in the modern context of comic books; that's why I think he should kept on a team with Jean Grey, as they have of late been shown as the closest plationic members of the original five X-Men. Jean would also be one of the characters that would understand Bobby while also pushing him gently out of his comfort box but in a positive way... so I'd put him on a team that she's leading as her second in command, much like he was supposed to be Storm's second in command in Extraordinary X-Men (I could go on about Lemire getting his characters but having a crappy premise, but I won't). Also show the range of his abilities and show him becoming that much more confident in himself.

    "I'll always love you, Jean Grey." "I'll always love you too, Scott Summers." - Scott Summers and Jean Grey

  10. #85
    Magneto-centric Rivka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulfhammer View Post
    God of runs huh...

    I'm not sure that came out right.
    No ... no that came out perfectly.

  11. #86
    Magneto-centric Rivka's Avatar
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    What to do with a problem like ... editors who don't edit. In the bad old '90s Marvel and X-Men editors micromanaged the writers and books (Harras, et. al.) and then editors kind of sprang back from that in 2001 and let Morrison do whatever he wanted without editing at all, then back to micromanaging Claremont in the mid-2000s when he returned, but others could do just about whatever they wanted. Marvel editors need to find the golden mean ... they need to edit, but not micromanage. They need to manage continuity, consistency, and keep check on the personal prejudices of creative teams without imposing their own agenda and prejudices. We are asking a lot. It's one of the hardest jobs in publishing, being a Marvel editor, but to me this is still problematic with Mr. Hickman being given the keys to the X-Men kingdom, as it were.

  12. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivka View Post
    What to do with a problem like ... editors who don't edit. In the bad old '90s Marvel and X-Men editors micromanaged the writers and books (Harras, et. al.) and then editors kind of sprang back from that in 2001 and let Morrison do whatever he wanted without editing at all, then back to micromanaging Claremont in the mid-2000s when he returned, but others could do just about whatever they wanted. Marvel editors need to find the golden mean ... they need to edit, but not micromanage. They need to manage continuity, consistency, and keep check on the personal prejudices of creative teams without imposing their own agenda and prejudices. We are asking a lot. It's one of the hardest jobs in publishing, being a Marvel editor, but to me this is still problematic with Mr. Hickman being given the keys to the X-Men kingdom, as it were.
    I became aware of the importance of editing - real editing - through what I saw happen with Square-Enix from late 90s to early 10s. Mainly regarding Motomu Toriyama.

    People love FF7. That includes the Honeybee Inn. But if Toriyama had it the way he wanted, Honeybee Inn would've been extremely problematic. It has the most dummied content in the game, most of it for going too far. Basically, the dummied content would've taken it up from implied seediness to full-blown brothel. The reason none of this made it into the game? Oversight. Someone above Toriyama stepped in and said no.

    By contrast, we have cases like FFX-2 and 3rd Birthday. FFX-2 had Brother, Yuna's cousin, constantly perving out over her. 3rd Birthday completely ruined Aya, making her look like a terrified amnesiac who needs men to tell her what to do as she's constantly sexually harassing and objectified (at one point, a character is written saying he wants to taste Aya's tears, as a not at all creepy way of expressing "love"). As soon as Toriyama had no oversight, the things he had a hand in took a massive nosedive into awful bordering on insulting.

    There's a fine line that must be balanced. An editor shouldn't completely hijack a story to force a personal mandate or vendetta, e.g. how Lorna was excluded from the Magnus family in all the Avengers side material from Children's Crusade to Axis for obviously biased reasons. But at the same time, an editor shouldn't just give a checkmark to issues and call it a day. Aside from the obvious of editing spelling and grammar, they should serve as an outside voice that can catch issues the writer may not see and offer some guidance. Sometimes this even requires pushing a little hard on it. Writers can very, very easily became enamored with terrible ideas that they feel are amazing while writing them, only to realize later - outside the thrill of writing - how bad they always were.

    One other thing I want to acknowledge/admit though. There may be some editing work at Marvel being done that we're not aware of. It's possible some bad stuff we've seen could've been even worse, or some good stuff only happened from editorial oversight but we don't know it. Sort of the same principle as "if you're doing everything right, nobody knows you're doing anything at all."
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  13. #88
    Magneto-centric Rivka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by salarta View Post
    One other thing I want to acknowledge/admit though. There may be some editing work at Marvel being done that we're not aware of. It's possible some bad stuff we've seen could've been even worse, or some good stuff only happened from editorial oversight but we don't know it. Sort of the same principle as "if you're doing everything right, nobody knows you're doing anything at all."
    Yes, definitely. There are some great and heroic editors at Marvel who do a good job every day, despite all the pressures.

  14. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maestroneto View Post
    Nothing endearing about that Emma character assassination. “You’re never alone”???
    Yeah, that issue made me puke a little.
    Let the flames destroy all but that which is pure and true!

  15. #90
    Fantastic Member Blue22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post
    What to do with a problem like... Emma Frost.

    Let's be honest, Emma Frost hasn't exactly been well written since Bendis left the X-Books. Yes, you read that right: Bendis. The few times that she's been written well have been in guest appearances by writers of other titles or one-off appearances by writers that were able to partially establish new status quos for her, but then lose access to the character overall... and as a result, Emma Frost as a character has been very confused. Who is Emma Frost these days? Is she a hero? Is she a villain? Somewhere in between? Honestly, I don't think that anyone knows. So, to start... I would define Emma's morality, and make her what is effectively an anti-hero.

    I would also have her operate her own X-Men. Nothing affiliated with Scott, Logan, Jean, or Ororo - she would be the rival team, but still a team of heroes, still a team of X-Men, and one that is ultimately recognized by her so-called competition. Her team would be the one that would be willing to do whatever it takes in order to help mutantkind, and establish their foothold in the world as heroes. Ultimately, they're still doing good, and they still have a public face, but they'd be the ones that get down to the nitty gritty more than the typical X-Men do. And, like I said, Emma would be in charge as a proactive leader, the funder, and etc. And it would all be based out of Frost House in Snow Valley.

    And importantly, she wouldn't be crazy. She'd be the Emma that we all know and love and that we got up until she went insane during Death Of X. She'd be stable and she would be powerful, and competent in more ways than one.
    Yes. All of this. Yes please. I love Emma but the seesaw morality kick she's been on is getting old. I like her as a hero but the anti-hero route is definitely more her style. And having her own team of X-Men (I wouldn't be shocked if it's made up of people from her Generation X days) would be great.

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