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  1. #61
    Fantastic Member Ulysses's Avatar
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    Why is it frustrating?
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  2. #62
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulysses View Post
    Why is it frustrating?
    Because it destroys what I think makes Wonder Woman unique. Just as trying to load up the Birds of Prey with male heroes destroys what I think makes them unique. There's a difference in impact and meaning when you have an all female team or origin. I don't want it to be the norm, or be the main point of Wonder Woman or the Birds, but I think it's really important to both comic concepts.
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  3. #63
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    Monkey paw strikes again. Wanted new BoP and Lupacchino on an ongoing but got Azz and Harley with it with a lack of Babs.

  4. #64
    Fantastic Member Ulysses's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Because it destroys what I think makes Wonder Woman unique. Just as trying to load up the Birds of Prey with male heroes destroys what I think makes them unique. There's a difference in impact and meaning when you have an all female team or origin. I don't want it to be the norm, or be the main point of Wonder Woman or the Birds, but I think it's really important to both comic concepts.
    And what makes Wonder Woman unique is her gender? Am I understanding you correctly? If so, adding "dudes" doesn't change her gender. She still retains that "unique" characteristic regardless of the gender of other characters in the book. Same for BoP, adding males to the supporting cast does not alter their "unique" gender characteristics. They remain female. Same for when Catwoman enters the Batman book, Batman remains male. Batman remains Batman.

    I guess the gender of comic characters is not of import to me. I just want the stories to be good. I like Wonder Woman when her stories are good. I don't like Wonder Woman when her stories are bad. I have the same criteria regardless of the character's sex.

    I was excited to read Grant Morrisson and Azz write Wonder Woman because I think they are generally good writers. I was not excited to see Rucka write WW because he's hit and miss for me. I was not excited for Gail Simone BoP because her writing does not appeal to me (from my experience with her SS run), I'm excited for Azz on BoP because generally he delivers stories I like.

    I couldn't care less what gender, race, religion, hair color, eye color, political affiliation, marital status, sexual orientation, nationality, the characters are. I just want a good story about individuals facing challenges and doing their damndest to overcome them. That's something I can relate to. We can all relate to this. But hey, what do I know what turns someone else's crank. Good luck!
    Last edited by Ulysses; 07-21-2019 at 11:26 PM.
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  5. #65
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    It's not "a comic book", it's Wonder Woman. That's not to say that Wonder Woman should be exclusively women - but to change her origin drastically and make ALL of the important new figures men? That's pretty frustrating, even to me as a non-feminist.
    The Zeus origin has, honestly, felt more like an albatross to the franchise lately.

    It's probably why the movies didn't dwell on it at all.

  6. #66

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    It’s amazing how much hate Harley Quinn gets on this forum, If you include this she is literally in 2 on goings and one of those is her solo, which given most of the ignorant comments I see none of those commentators actually read. Yeah she is used to draw attention to events but most of the stories barely include her. People act like she’s everywhere like Bruce or Wolverine.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by lucius121 View Post
    It’s amazing how much hate Harley Quinn gets on this forum, If you include this she is literally in 2 on goings and one of those is her solo, which given most of the ignorant comments I see none of those commentators actually read. Yeah she is used to draw attention to events but most of the stories barely include her. People act like she’s everywhere like Bruce or Wolverine.
    She's certainly advertised as such. Though it doesnt help that she's attatched to Batman ans Joker whom tend to turn up in morw books.

  8. #68
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulysses View Post
    And what makes Wonder Woman unique is her gender? Am I understanding you correctly? If so, adding "dudes" doesn't change her gender. She still retains that "unique" characteristic regardless of the gender of other characters in the book. Same for BoP, adding males to the supporting cast does not alter their "unique" gender characteristics. They remain female. Same for when Catwoman enters the Batman book, Batman remains male. Batman remains Batman.

    I guess the gender of comic characters is not of import to me. I just want the stories to be good. I like Wonder Woman when her stories are good. I don't like Wonder Woman when her stories are bad. I have the same criteria regardless of the character's sex.

    I was excited to read Grant Morrisson and Azz write Wonder Woman because I think they are generally good writers. I was not excited to see Rucka write WW because he's hit and miss for me. I was not excited for Gail Simone BoP because her writing does not appeal to me (from my experience with her SS run), I'm excited for Azz on BoP because generally he delivers stories I like.

    I couldn't care less what gender, race, religion, hair color, eye color, political affiliation, marital status, sexual orientation, nationality, the characters are. I just want a good story about individuals facing challenges and doing their damndest to overcome them. That's something I can relate to. We can all relate to this. But hey, what do I know what turns someone else's crank. Good luck!
    I'm saying that Wonder Woman is a Woman, and it's very much wrapped up in her narrative that she is a woman. Now, what being a woman means has been incredibly complicated and confused and is even more controversial now. But for me, fundamentally, there's something really powerful and interesting about the version of Wonder Woman who is created entirely by women. To change that is to make her less unique and less symbolically interesting. And the specific way that Azzarello changed it - not just giving her a father, but giving her Zeus, who symbolically is not only incredibly opposed to the things that Wonder Woman stands for - keeping his word to women, treating women as equal to men - but it also makes her "another one of Zeus's bastards" - so it cheapens the entire concept of her character.

    To address perhaps something I didn't communicate before about Birds of Prey specifically: I'm 100% in favor of the Birds having male supporting characters, male villains, male friends, male love interests. I enjoy the Dixon run and the Simone runs quite a bit, and they had tons of great male characters - Ra's al Ghul, the Joker, Jason Bard, Nightwing in the Dixon run, Savant, Creote, Batman, Jim Gordon, Catman, the Senator, Brainiac in Simone's run. I don't even hate Gus the Fake Oracle in the Benson's run. But the TEAM itself, I think, should be women. Adding Hawk and Dove, or Condor or whoever in the n52 - you've changed a unique thing into a generic thing.

    If you like Azz - that's good. That's what DC is doing by putting him on the book. I just hope that unlike his Wonder Woman run, he actually does some research and respects the work of the previous teams, instead of rejecting or dismissing them completely. Do something new, absolutely - but why title it Birds of Prey if it has nothing to do with the original team? And yes, I know that in comics there's tons of things that have done it. Doesn't mean I think they're any more admirable if they don't have this gender dynamic.

    And again, I don't come at this from a feminist perspective - but I think it's important for her character.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    The Zeus origin has, honestly, felt more like an albatross to the franchise lately.

    It's probably why the movies didn't dwell on it at all.
    And yet it's still in the movie, which is a large part of why the third act fails emotionally for me.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    She is the bright spot. I have adored her art since she did Starfire in 2015.
    I also think Emanuela Lupacchino is a great choice. Her work for Marvel is credited as "Ema Lupacchino" for some reason. I've hoped she'd be drawing a monthly title for DC.

    She did a short story in Batgirl #25, "March Madness" written by Paul Dini. More recently drew Wonder Woman #63. Both of these show how good she is drawing busy panels with lots of characters, and how well she draws funny material when it's called for (as it was in both of those stories). I'd say her work is more on the cartoony side than, say, gritty. Which lends itself to Harley, at least.

    As for Harley, it now seems that in the fall we are going to have all of these at once:

    Harley Quinn
    Birds of Prey
    Harley Quinn and Poison Ivy
    Harleen
    Joker/Harley: Criminal Sanity

    Maybe that is enough for now?

    The Harley Quinn title did drop from twice a month to monthly not too long ago, so arguably Birds of Prey brings it back to two appearances. (And, actually, less than two, because it's a team book).

    The rest are limited series.

    Harleen will be 3 parts, written and drawn by Stjepan Sejic and therefore, I think, worth it if only for his outstanding art.

    Of course, they may be followed by other limited series, you never know.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by lucius121 View Post
    It’s amazing how much hate Harley Quinn gets on this forum, If you include this she is literally in 2 on goings and one of those is her solo, which given most of the ignorant comments I see none of those commentators actually read. Yeah she is used to draw attention to events but most of the stories barely include her. People act like she’s everywhere like Bruce or Wolverine.
    Aside from her ongoing solo
    Not only is she the face of the suicide squad but the field leader(how)
    Now she going to be front and center in a title that wont include its founding member

    It pretty big deal that she was a lead in a crisis event, and displaying prowess and skills that in no way she should have
    She seem to be big player in the Deceased story line
    The birds of Prey film is Stamped with her face all over
    A new animated series (Already renewed)

    Its been a heavy Harley flow kinda year

  11. #71
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ohfellow View Post
    Harleen will be 3 parts, written and drawn by Stjepan Sejic and therefore, I think, worth it if only for his outstanding art.
    I believe Sejic has a followup centered on Harley Quinn and Poison Ivy planned, if the Harleen mini is successful enough.
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  12. #72
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ohfellow View Post
    I also think Emanuela Lupacchino is a great choice. Her work for Marvel is credited as "Ema Lupacchino" for some reason. I've hoped she'd be drawing a monthly title for DC.

    She did a short story in Batgirl #25, "March Madness" written by Paul Dini. More recently drew Wonder Woman #63. Both of these show how good she is drawing busy panels with lots of characters, and how well she draws funny material when it's called for (as it was in both of those stories). I'd say her work is more on the cartoony side than, say, gritty. Which lends itself to Harley, at least.
    Yes! I wasn't as thrilled with the Dini/Lupacchino story - it didn't feel like it quite played to her strengths, which are really appealing design. Dini wrote a really dark story of revenge where everyone was pretty unpleasant. Hopefully Azz can find a balance between his generally dark stories and really appealing characterization that Lupacchino does.
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  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Yes! I wasn't as thrilled with the Dini/Lupacchino story - it didn't feel like it quite played to her strengths, which are really appealing design. Dini wrote a really dark story of revenge where everyone was pretty unpleasant. Hopefully Azz can find a balance between his generally dark stories and really appealing characterization that Lupacchino does.
    The preview pages look pretty rough. Some of the violence is likely a dream or daydream - I'm lousy at adding my own dialog to artwork, but I doubt someone's head is really getting hacked off. Then there's another scene with a bottle smashed on someone's head, a man getting kneed in the privates, and someone's eyes getting gouged out. Maybe another dream. Harley's wish fulfillment? Maybe she just WISHES she was in BoP and the whole story takes place in her head.

    On the other hand, you can see Ema's signature beautiful faces. Ditto on the cover.

    So, very pretty violence? Maybe that's what Azzarello meant in the interview: "equal parts estrogen and adrenaline." Depending on what that means, it may not make everyone here happy!

    BTW I thought the Bensons' writing on Batgirl and the Birds of Prey started out pretty weakly. The dialog especially. They actually had people saying to each other stuff like "Goodbye." "Okay, bye." Was it their first book? But they got better over the nearly 2-year run.

  14. #74
    Fantastic Member Ulysses's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    it also makes her "another one of Zeus's bastards" - so it cheapens the entire concept of her character.
    I'm not really interested in disputing anything you said except the quoted part. I get that you feel that Wonder Woman's mythos shuoldn't be messed with. That's your perspective. I don't agree, I like when characters are dragged to the mud a bit. We get to see what they're made of. I like bold experiments. But tastes differ.

    I feel I have to underline that though Azz may have messed around with Wonder Woman's mythos as it appears in the comics he did a great job of elevating her closer to the mythos from which the comics have borrowed (ie. greek mythology).

    The greeks did not have the same moral constitution that the judeo-christian western world has and they were probably not repulsed at the sexual vicissitudes of the gods like we are. The reason I speculate this is because the greek cosmology allocates special standing to they who have familial connections to the gods. So much so that the greek afterlife is generally unpleasant to all except those who pass on to Elysius. And Elysius is a "special pass" kind of after life. Reserved (not exclusively but almost) to those with the privilege of having a celestial origin in their ancestry. Their concern was much less the manner they received their claimed divine ancestry (non-monogamously, out of wedlock, via rape, etc.) but that they had one.

    So in my view, Azz's Wonder Woman is far from "just another bastard" due to her paternal bloodline. From a greek worldview perspective, it is a rare honour to be a "bastard" of Zeus. We may wince at the worldview of the greeks but only because our own casts a shadow upon it.
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  15. #75
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Azzarello in Birds of Prey?, well his fans would enjoy it. Not really thrilled about this, especially the whole "Harlie is the most put together on the team", but i lost interest in the Birds of Prey franchise a long time ago, no one has been able to emulate the quality of Dixon or Simone and those two already said what they have to about this characters. Hopefully, whatever Azz does, is not quite as insulting as his WW stuff.

    Also, i'm curious about something, what was the general reception of the Birds of Prey book that came out with the New 52 reboot, i just remember reading the first issue and then completely ignoring it until it was cancelled. So..how it was?
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