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  1. #76
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulysses View Post
    So in my view, Azz's Wonder Woman is far from "just another bastard" due to her paternal bloodline. From a greek worldview perspective, it is a rare honour to be a "bastard" of Zeus. We may wince at the worldview of the greeks but only because our own casts a shadow upon it.
    I don't know if that should really matter in the realm of American comics.

    At least as far as Wonder Woman, it should be much more of an honor to be the daughter of Hippolyta then to be related to Zeus.

  2. #77
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ohfellow View Post
    The preview pages look pretty rough. Some of the violence is likely a dream or daydream - I'm lousy at adding my own dialog to artwork, but I doubt someone's head is really getting hacked off. Then there's another scene with a bottle smashed on someone's head, a man getting kneed in the privates, and someone's eyes getting gouged out. Maybe another dream. Harley's wish fulfillment? Maybe she just WISHES she was in BoP and the whole story takes place in her head.

    On the other hand, you can see Ema's signature beautiful faces. Ditto on the cover.

    So, very pretty violence? Maybe that's what Azzarello meant in the interview: "equal parts estrogen and adrenaline." Depending on what that means, it may not make everyone here happy!

    BTW I thought the Bensons' writing on Batgirl and the Birds of Prey started out pretty weakly. The dialog especially. They actually had people saying to each other stuff like "Goodbye." "Okay, bye." Was it their first book? But they got better over the nearly 2-year run.
    I just hope that Azzarello gives Lupacchino a chance to really get into the characters, and not just the action. I think he probably will, but we'll have to wait and see.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ulysses View Post
    I'm not really interested in disputing anything you said except the quoted part. I get that you feel that Wonder Woman's mythos shuoldn't be messed with. That's your perspective. I don't agree, I like when characters are dragged to the mud a bit. We get to see what they're made of. I like bold experiments. But tastes differ.

    I feel I have to underline that though Azz may have messed around with Wonder Woman's mythos as it appears in the comics he did a great job of elevating her closer to the mythos from which the comics have borrowed (ie. greek mythology).

    The greeks did not have the same moral constitution that the judeo-christian western world has and they were probably not repulsed at the sexual vicissitudes of the gods like we are. The reason I speculate this is because the greek cosmology allocates special standing to they who have familial connections to the gods. So much so that the greek afterlife is generally unpleasant to all except those who pass on to Elysius. And Elysius is a "special pass" kind of after life. Reserved (not exclusively but almost) to those with the privilege of having a celestial origin in their ancestry. Their concern was much less the manner they received their claimed divine ancestry (non-monogamously, out of wedlock, via rape, etc.) but that they had one.

    So in my view, Azz's Wonder Woman is far from "just another bastard" due to her paternal bloodline. From a greek worldview perspective, it is a rare honour to be a "bastard" of Zeus. We may wince at the worldview of the greeks but only because our own casts a shadow upon it.
    Except that it's hardly "rare." Zeus has SO MANY, including Diana's twin brother now.

    As for dragging heroes through the mud to show their mettle - I think Rucka having Diana kill Max Lord was that type of choice. I think changing her origin is not, because it destroys an essential part of what Perez and Marston did by reversing a lot of traditional heroic origin tropes into female versions or female-led actions.

    As for "elevating Diana to the Greek myths" - I've heard this innumerable times from Azzarello Wonder Woman fans. My response is twofold. First - if Azzarello was truly interested in bringing Diana closer to the Greek myths, he wouldn't have reimagined the gods and other mythological figures to be so alien to their Greek roots. Second, the Marston/Perez origin for Diana has deep roots in Greek mythology already - to the myth of Pygmalion, the statue come to life. And the goddesses who gave her clay form vitality are also links to the myths.

    Basically, I'm not concerned about the "bastard" part, I'm concerned about the watering down of the uniqueness. Even if it's a "rare honor" - it's not as rare as the singular clay origin.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    Also, i'm curious about something, what was the general reception of the Birds of Prey book that came out with the New 52 reboot, i just remember reading the first issue and then completely ignoring it until it was cancelled. So..how it was?
    I haven't done a full readthrough, but the issues I have read were...pretty generic Swizcynski spy stuff. I had the same negative reaction to when he took over Black Widow, so it's possible I just don't like his writing.
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  3. #78
    Fantastic Member Ulysses's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I don't know if that should really matter in the realm of American comics.

    At least as far as Wonder Woman, it should be much more of an honor to be the daughter of Hippolyta then to be related to Zeus.
    Maybe I remember wrong but Azz still had WW related to Hippolyta.
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  4. #79
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulysses View Post
    I feel I have to underline that though Azz may have messed around with Wonder Woman's mythos as it appears in the comics he did a great job of elevating her closer to the mythos from which the comics have borrowed (ie. greek mythology).
    He did not. Azzarello's handling of Greek myth was shallower than the one that Pérez did. Azzarello has nothing that comes close to what Pérez did in #45, "The Legacy of Pandora's Box".

    But it goes deeper than simply "elevating her closer" to the Greek myths. Because what Marston started, and what Pérez did even more, was to re-interpret the Greek myths from a feminist angle. Azzarello gutted that latter part, making his interpretation of Greek myth far more conventional, and far less interesting.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  5. #80
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulysses View Post
    Maybe I remember wrong but Azz still had WW related to Hippolyta.
    They were, but nothing very meaningful happened between beyond the revelation of her true parentage.
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  6. #81
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulysses View Post
    Maybe I remember wrong but Azz still had WW related to Hippolyta.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    They were, but nothing very meaningful happened between beyond the revelation of her true parentage.
    As TheCape says, Azzarello's Wonder Woman had no real meaningful honor or connection to Hippolyta compared to how important her connection to Zeus was. And it's that shift of emphasis from the female to the male, SPECIFICALLY in Wonder Woman (and Birds of Prey) that I object to. Just as I'm against (and this will probably get me in trouble with some people, though many of them are now gone from these boards) Cass Cain becoming BatMAN (but have no problem with her being The Bat or the legitimate heir to Batman), I'm against Wonder WOMAN and the BIRDS of Prey losing their unique emphasis on the female. Not, as I've tried to emphasize, to the exclusion of male characters, but it's a matter of emphasis, theme, and symbolism.
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  7. #82
    Fantastic Member Ulysses's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    if Azzarello was truly interested in bringing Diana closer to the Greek myths, he wouldn't have reimagined the gods and other mythological figures to be so alien to their Greek roots.
    Remixing the gods is pretty much the whole tradition of the Wonder Woman book and it's built in to the greek tradition itself. The greeks remixed their own gods. Choose any given period of history and you can find a number of different writers with different takes on the myths of their day.

    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Second, the Marston/Perez origin for Diana has deep roots in Greek mythology already - to the myth of Pygmalion, the statue come to life. And the goddesses who gave her clay form vitality are also links to the myths.
    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Basically, I'm not concerned about the "bastard" part, I'm concerned about the watering down of the uniqueness. Even if it's a "rare honor" - it's not as rare as the singular clay origin.
    I see, I guess I misunderstood? Because initially I got the impression you thought adding "dudes" was what watered down the uniqueness. But I think you are saying it's the adding of one dude in particular (Zeus) that you don't like.

    I like both origins. The traditional origin is more of a christian "virgin birth" kind of a thing. The remixed is more greek and pagan.

    I'm beginning to wonder if perhaps I appreciated Azz's book because of my better than average (but far from expert) familiarity with the greek worldview.
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  8. #83
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulysses View Post
    I like both origins. The traditional origin is more of a christian "virgin birth" kind of a thing. The remixed is more greek and pagan.
    You are aware that molding a living being from clay is not only a real piece of Greek myth, it's a real piece of Sumerian, Babylonian, Egyptian, Hindu, et c myth as well?
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  9. #84
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulysses View Post
    Remixing the gods is pretty much the whole tradition of the Wonder Woman book and it's built in to the greek tradition itself. The greeks remixed their own gods. Choose any given period of history and you can find a number of different writers with different takes on the myths of their day.

    I see, I guess I misunderstood? Because initially I got the impression you thought adding "dudes" was what watered down the uniqueness. But I think you are saying it's the adding of one dude in particular (Zeus) that you don't like.

    I like both origins. The traditional origin is more of a christian "virgin birth" kind of a thing. The remixed is more greek and pagan.

    I'm beginning to wonder if perhaps I appreciated Azz's book because of my better than average (but far from expert) familiarity with the greek worldview.
    But if "remixing the gods" is already a tradition in Wonder Woman books, it's hardly "elevating" for Azzarello to do the same thing.

    It's not even specifically Zeus - Rucka used Zeus heavily, and I quite enjoyed that. But it's the fact that Diana's origin is now specifically 1) not unique, even if it's still rare, and 2) dependent on a father, when before it was dependent on a mother. Yes, Hippolyta was still her mother, but the emphasis was completely shifted to the male figure.

    I'm not a fan of when a Wonder Woman writer makes all men evil or weak, and all women strong and noble. Or when a Wonder Woman or Birds of Prey writer makes them only fight female villains. But I think there is something uniquely interesting to these two comic concepts that is rendered less interesting (at least when I've read them) when the emphasis on women is changed. I'm a huge fan of male heroes as well, and I have no problem with bro-teams like Blue and Gold.

    I still think that the clay "traditional origin" is at least as Greek, via Pygmalion, as it is partaking in Christian or other mythical/religious traditions.
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  10. #85
    Fantastic Member Ulysses's Avatar
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    I'm aware that the virginal birth motif is spread across cultures, yes.
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  11. #86
    Fantastic Member Ulysses's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    But if "remixing the gods" is already a tradition in Wonder Woman books, it's hardly "elevating" for Azzarello to do the same thing.
    No previous writer had made Zeus Diana's Dad. And that is a very greek mythology thing to do. It seems obvious in retrospect.
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  12. #87
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulysses View Post
    No previous writer had made Zeus Diana's Dad. And that is a very greek mythology thing to do. It seems obvious in retrospect.
    I mean, not really in the context of the feminist and female narrative of Wonder Woman.

  13. #88
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulysses View Post
    So in my view, Azz's Wonder Woman is far from "just another bastard" due to her paternal bloodline. From a greek worldview perspective, it is a rare honour to be a "bastard" of Zeus. We may wince at the worldview of the greeks but only because our own casts a shadow upon it.
    The point of the WW franchise is to reject the thought process that being related to an abusive, cheating asshole like Zeus (who in some interpretations is also a rapist) is in any way a good thing. I guess our own worldview is casting a shadow on it, but WW is born from more modern world views and I think going backwards to theirs would be counter productive for her specifically.

    It was also so common in Greek myth that it's pretty much one of the oldest cliches in the book. It really doesn't elevate her into Greek myth any more than she already was, it makes her less unique and defines her by her relationship to a man. If giving her a biological father is going to happen, there are better candidates even within Greek myth itself to go for than Zeus, who is like the lowest hanging fruit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ulysses View Post
    Maybe I remember wrong but Azz still had WW related to Hippolyta.
    She's her mother, but that's pretty much her only role aside from being Zeus's mistress and the leader of some sketchy warrior women who lost all of their redeeming qualities. Hippolyta is meant to be so much more than that though, she's the deutragonist of the franchise. Diana's story is in many ways her story as well. Azz just used her for a few issues and cast her aside because her important parental role was hijacked by a man.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ulysses View Post
    No previous writer had made Zeus Diana's Dad. And that is a very greek mythology thing to do. It seems obvious in retrospect.
    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I mean, not really in the context of the feminist and female narrative of Wonder Woman.
    I think it would have been better to make Hercules her father (definitely without any form of rape being involved though) if she had to have one. He's already both tied to the DC Amazons and Hippolyta is mostly known for the myth of the 12 Labors anyway. He's a big name so the danger of him overshadowing Hippolyta is still present, but not as much as Zeus I feel. He cannot fly out of the sky shooting lightning bolts and having his pissed off wife and kids hijack the plot (driven in response by his actions) the way Zeus does.

    Being brought to life from clay is still a very Greek myth thing to do, and with no Zeus or any other father, it's a female driven narrative.

  14. #89
    Titans Together!! byrd156's Avatar
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    Who wants to take bets that the creative team will be gone by issue 30?
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  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by byrd156 View Post
    Who wants to take bets that the creative team will be gone by issue 30?
    Artists are hardly part of the creative teams anymore
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