New "Crisis" theory (not rumor) from bleedingcool

[scary harpy]

Okay. now that I've read it, the theory is kind of solid.

And I think that it bears noticing that we now have 5 characters with access to memories of full the post-Crisis while also having lived a full life in the post-Flashpoint continuity (Those are Wally West, Iris West, Conner Kent, Tim Drake and Bart Allen), and one other with at least partial access to it (Cassie Sandsmark).

It could not be a big deal if not for the fact that none of these characters memories are reconcilable with the present continuity. Also, 3 of them (the Flash crew) are time-travelers.

It's also worth noticing that Batman is the last one of the Trinity to not have a disparate recent pst (Current Superman is 2 different versions merged, not Nu52's. Current Wonder Woman had a fake past in Azarello's run).

So, yeah.... I could see it. I also think it's not the kind of thing that would compliment Tom King's skillset (But then again, HiC was and look how that turned out).

I think I recently read that Batman and Catwoman have different memories of their first meeting.

Batman remembers meeting her on a boat (pre-crisis)...

Catwoman remembers meeting him on the street...

[CaptCleghorn]

There are some assumptions I am very comfortable to consider facts. Among them are 1) DC wouldn't set preliminary groundwork for a Crisis level story without at least trying to make sure the major players are on board with those plans. 2) Batman, Selina, and Joker are all major players.

That being said, the Bruce/Selina "how we met" talk could be Easter eggs mimicking many couples disagreements about their own forst meetings. But Bruce has his $#!+ together and Selina isn't that bad in the memory department either. It is cute, but unlikely from a character realism point of view.

There is no way Dr. Manhattan isn't connected with any upcoming Crisis. After Rebirth and DClock, there really isn't any good argument to doubting the Johns stuff isn't a part of this.

The one factor that gets me is a Crisis build up in Batman? Although bats is basically a superhero, the universal cosmic stuff isn't usually in his wheelhouse. But then again, the Monitor first showed his face in GI Combat pre-Crisis. And Bat-God is Bat-God. King seems to have been looking at a huge (bigger than big) picture here. Mismatched memories and multiple Jokers certainly seem to speak volumes when though about as multi-versal puzzle pieces.

[BatmanJones]

I think I recently read that Batman and Catwoman have different memories of their first meeting.

Batman remembers meeting her on a boat (pre-crisis)...

Catwoman remembers meeting him on the street...

This is extensively covered in the story I linked to.

[KangMiRae]

So, Manhattan ends up good (relatively - in grander scope) and Superman evil/destroying for some reason and Superman destroying him would destroy the world? Please no. I'm so sick of evil Superman, even in alternate realities. Let Superman be awesome and be the hero a storyline. My impression was it seemed like Doomsday Clock might sort of be going that way, even though it placed import on JSA, so he wasn't the first, as I prefer (I'm waiting for it to be finished to read, so going by comments and excerpts). I do expect the continuity issues/memory conflicts to play in, somehow.

You're under the assumption that Superman would intentionally start the Crisis by killing Manhattan. How is he evil if he had no idea and was pushed to this?

[Tzigone]

You're under the assumption that Superman would intentionally start the Crisis by killing Manhattan. How is he evil if he had no idea and was pushed to this?

That's why my first had evil/destroying in first instance - either way, though, Superman is a negative, rather than positive, force in the world/universe. He does bad or causes harm rather than doing good and causing good.

[KangMiRae]

That's why my first had evil/destroying in first instance - either way, though, Superman is a negative, rather than positive, force in the world/universe. He does bad or causes harm rather than doing good and causing good.

What's the point of shoes if you don't wear them? Too afraid to get them dirty? And I use dirty in this example very lightly since I fail to see how Superman would be looked at negatively for stopping Manhattan since all the other heroes just tried.

[Tzigone]

What's the point of shoes if you don't wear them? Too afraid to get them dirty? And I use dirty in this example very lightly since I fail to see how Superman would be looked at negatively for stopping Manhattan since all the other heroes just tried.

I don't even get that first sentence - I admit it.

I'm tired of Superman as the bad guy or the one who fails (due to ignorance), or the one who doesn't have the moral fortitude after loss or whatnot.

However, note the passage I quoted

Let’s say something very bad happens to Superman, that he becomes so angry that he punches with enough might to kill even Dr. Manhattan. And let’s say that Dr. Manhattan has been actively manipulating multiple timelines, changing them but also sustaining them. What if the godlike being who is actively holding time together… suddenly dies? What would happen to time?

This one suggests that Superman's anger and killing Manhattan destroys multiple timelines and causes massive death (as tends to happen in Crisis events). That's definitely negative. That's like Barry-Flashpoint negative before retcons bringing in Manhattan.

They may have all unknowingly tried to bring about an event of mass destruction, but Superman would be the one who did it.

[BatmanJones]

I don't even get that first sentence - I admit it.

I'm tired of Superman as the bad guy or the one who fails (due to ignorance), or the one who doesn't have the moral fortitude after loss or whatnot.

However, note the passage I quotedThis one suggests that Superman's anger and killing Manhattan destroys multiple timelines and causes massive death (as tends to happen in Crisis events). That's definitely negative. That's like Barry-Flashpoint negative before retcons bringing in Manhattan.

They may have all unknowingly tried to bring about an event of mass destruction, but Superman would be the one who did it.

I think this is a very reasonable line of debate but I feel like the speculation that particular story beat might happen is incidental in the context of a much broader theory. The theory doesn't rely on any 1-2 connections. It draws connections between many more stories and beats than that. So it's not necessary for Superman to kill Dr. Manhattan for the theory to be accurate.

What interests me most is just how many connections the writer of the article, Robert Cale, recognized across the DCU from Batman learning there were 3 Jokers during Darkseid War to Batman #75 which just came out yesterday.

The discovery of there being 3 Jokers happened near the launch of Rebirth so Johns knew he was about to write about Dr. Manhattan and about to write Doomsday Clock. And he knew he was going to write about Jokers from different eras. And I expect that King, Snyder, and Bendis have been aware of what's behind all that too. So it makes a lot of sense to me that stories written by each of them would be part of a unified thing. The most impressive thing the article does IMO is to tie all these various things together.

That all of this (or just much of it) would add up to dealing with old and new continuity would be the sign that the theory is correct IMO.

[BatmanJones]

Here's the full story/theory by Robert Cale. I encourage you to click on this link too though for relevant panels from various stories referenced here....

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2019/07...popular_mobile

Does Batman #75 – and All of Tom King’s Run – Signal a New DC Comics Crisis Including Doomsday Clock and Three Jokers? (Spoilers)
Posted by Rich Johnston July 17, 2019 36 Comments
Robert Cale writes for Bleeding Cool for what we’re calling Monster Wednesday.

Batman #75 has landed, written by Tom King, with art by Tony Daniel, Mitch Gerads and Jordie Bellaire, and there’s… well, a lot to digest. Trust me, you’ll want to read until the end; I’m going to make it worth your time.

When we last left Bruce Wayne, he was prisoner to Flashpoint Batman – his father, Thomas Wayne, but from an alternate timeline where Bruce died in Crime Alley instead of his parents. This Thomas Wayne is now alive in the primary DCU timeline thanks to Dr. Manhattan’s seemingly limitless power to manipulate reality (See: “The Button”). Thomas, now in league with a vengeful Bane, had abducted Bruce, exhumed the corpse of Martha Wayne (his wife, Bruce’s mother), and brought them both to one of Ra’s Al Ghul’s restorative Lazarus Pits in an attempt to reunite the family. Bruce managed to secretly escape, burying Martha’s body somewhere in the desert, and then he fought his father deep within the Pit. The very last image in Batman #74 was the gauntlet of the victorious Batman as it emerged: but which Batman?

Batman #75 sees the world of Gotham City gone topsy-turvy. An unknown amount of time has passed, noted only by the opening caption “Later.” Bane has performed a total coup, seizing control of every facet of the city’s infrastructure; Hugo Strange is his police commissioner, Joker and Riddler are his top cops, and Thomas Wayne is his Batman.

Thomas has once again made Wayne Manor his home. Arnold Wesker, The Ventriloquist, serves as this Batman’s butler, and Gotham Girl as his ward. Thomas keeps Alfred Pennyworth hostage in the mansion, at least partially to keep Batman’s extended network of allies at a distance. We see him patrol his beat, as Hugo Strange sets him on course to corral any remaining villains who have yet to submit to Bane. Thomas Wayne is the Batman that leads this title for the entire milestone issue.

We do, however, briefly catch up with Bruce; while Bane’s Gotham pulls you through the looking glass in grand fashion, these quiet bits with an uncostumed Bruce Wayne are the subtle clues that we really ought to be paying attention to. Bruce has climbed a snowy mountaintop in an attempt to visit The Memory Of The Mountain. Readers might remember a noticeably older Bruce telling a story to an older Selina Kyle about this character within the pages of Batman Annual #2: [see article for relevant panels]


Bruce and Selina have been in an argument since Batman #15 about how they first met each other. Bruce seems to recall first encountering a disguised Catwoman on a boat, where she stole a diamond and Batman recovered it, but Catwoman got away. This memory is a recollection of Batman #1 from 1940 – the first time they ever met in the pre-Crisis continuity. The diamond carries extra importance because, as revealed in Batman #24, Bruce afterward purchased that diamond.

The diamond that Catwoman stole in Batman #1 from 1940 is the one that Bruce used to propose to her. But she doesn’t remember the diamond. She doesn’t remember meeting Batman that way at all. As Selina tells it in Batman #15: [see article for relevant panels]


Selina is describing Batman #404 from 1987 – the first time that Batman and Catwoman met in the post-Crisis continuity, the first issue of Frank Miller and David Mazzucchelli‘s iconic Batman: Year One.

Pre-Crisis and post-Crisis.

So when future Bruce is telling future Selina about training to memorize his senses forever within the pages of Batman Annual #2, and how it was The Memory Of The Mountain who taught him how to remember things forever, he’s trying to prove the point that he isn’t misremembering how they met. He couldn’t possibly. And here he is in Batman #75, at his lowest moment, trying to find answers from The Memory Of The Mountain. Only Bruce is out of luck, because an adept is there to inform Bruce that The Memory Of The Mountain is no longer among the living. And then the adept attacks Bruce, slashing his throat, leaving him to die in the snow. It turns out that Magpie got to Mr. Mountain first, as part of her plan to recapture Bruce and sell him back to Bane.

But Selina was tracking her missing love all along, and she finds him there dying in the snow. Bruce, barely coherent, naked, bleeding:

Pre-Crisis.

Post-Crisis.

CRISIS.

In standard Year Of The Villain format the end of the issue sees a holographic Luthor looking to parlay with an already-victorious Bane. Luthor knows that Bane possesses one of the most powerful artifacts in the history of the DCU – Psycho-Pirate and his mask. An artifact so powerful that after Crisis On Infinite Earths, Psycho-Pirate was the only living soul who remembered the pre-Crisis continuity. They come to the terms that as long as Bane never uses the mask to challenge Luthor or his ambitions of multiversal domination then Luthor, now in control of the US government, will allow Bane’s dominion over Gotham to go unchallenged.

Luthor believes that Bane is settling for far too little, and Bane believes that Luthor is attempting something too large and that he will ultimately fail, like all other multiversal threats have. But more than that, Bane knows something is coming – a threat so ominous that it makes even multiversal domination seems like a shortsighted goal:

He has Psycho-Pirate and his mask. He would know.

A Crisis is coming to the DCU, and it’s not a Crisis of emotions in a farmhouse in Nebraska. I must warn you that every word beyond this sentence is speculation, but I have a strong feeling about this.

For 75 issues, time has been even more of a threat in Tom King’s Batman than Bane has been. Memories of conflicting continuities; a future timeline where Bruce and Selina marry and live to old age, in Batman Annual #2. A future timeline where Bruce dies at the hands of Gotham Girl, as narrated by a future Gotham Girl herself at the end of Batman #5. A past where Batman buys a diamond that becomes an engagement ring. A past where he doesn’t.

And meanwhile, there is Dr. Manhattan.

For 10 issues of Doomsday Clock, a small watchface has appeared on the bottom left of each front cover, and with each issue it has gotten one minute closer to midnight. And in the midnight position rests a Superman symbol. Surely nothing to worry about. Surely a sign of victory for our heroes. And in the opening pages of Doomsday Clock #9 Dr. Manhattan theorizes about 2 possible outcomes for the timeline of the DCU:

But Dr. Manhattan ending all existence isn’t really on the table, so let’s look at that other one. Let’s say something very bad happens to Superman, that he becomes so angry that he punches with enough might to kill even Dr. Manhattan. And let’s say that Dr. Manhattan has been actively manipulating multiple timelines, changing them but also sustaining them. What if the godlike being who is actively holding time together… suddenly dies? What would happen to time?

Crisis. Calamity. Timelines in conflict. Pre-Crisis, post-Crisis, and post-Flashpoint.

And let’s entertain the idea that Doomsday Clock isn’t the big continuity event that we all thought it was. What if it’s only the lead-in? The Countdown To The Big One? What comes next?

Does Batman #75 - and All of Tom King's Run - Signal a New DC Comics Crisis Including Doomsday Clock and Three Jokers? (Spoilers)

Well, we know that Geoff Johns‘ next project is The Three Jokers, and if you’ll recall Batman investigating that particular plot thread in the final pages of New 52 Justice League #50, on his batcomputer viewscreen we saw images of the pre-Crisis, post-Crisis, and post-Flashpoint Jokers. But a mini about 3 Jokers doesn’t sound like the center of a line-wide Crisis. And Tom King sure has had his hand in this timeline plot for a long, long time. Just as long as Johns, really.

Say, isn’t Mitch Gerads working on a 12-issue secret thing with Tom King right at this very moment?

Oh, and that bit about Gotham Girl cratering Batman? It sure would be a bad time to lose a hero that essential, just before a Crisis. And combining multiple timelines on the other end sure would be a convenient way to bring him back.

And, yes, I’m aware that Scott Snyder is on a press tour telling you all that Doomsday Clock will pass without ramification.

Scott Snyder is lying to you.

[iron chimp]

There is no way they are doing nu52, rebirth, then a crisis in such a short space of time. That would utterly kill them. You cannot do three line wide resets / reboots / timeshifts / word of choice in 10 years. Whatever the plot points are going towards is something else. - elseworlds / ultimate / lost in time / parallel style Batman book is my uneducated guess.

Plus it's not like I know him personally but Scott Snyder always comes across to me as a very genuine person who tries to deliver the very best he can for readers. Whether the stories work for one personally is one thing, but clearly puts a lot of thought into them and respects readers - he's not going to be on tour lying.

Cue: line wide crisis