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  1. #31
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    He wasn't a proven terrorist enabler. His mind-controlled self was. He's not mind controlled anymore and everyone knew it by that point. To some this is just semantics and that's fine, I get the argument that they still didn't know the real him well, but there's a difference between arguing its semantic nature and pretending its not a thing at all that he was mind-controlled and the things he did as Mr. Oz was not the true Jor-El.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 07-20-2019 at 12:50 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

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  2. #32
    Ultimate Member Lee Stone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HandofPrometheus View Post
    Sucks for me because I gravitate towards the C list and D list characters who honestly get nothing
    I'm the same.

    The only hope for us is that no one remembers them when looking for event cannon fodder.
    "There's magic in the sound of analog audio." - CNET.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    Own man? Jon was maybe 11 at most. Still in grade school. Still learning as a KID. If he was 16-17, then maybe. But 11? Come on!
    I'm just going to refer you to the actual pages from Man of Steel #6:




    Yeah, when you're kid starts saying things like that, then its clear that he does have a need to grow and find himself.

    Except, Jor-El was a stranger to even Clark, his own son. Let alone Jon. He never raised either, never talked to them until the Oz Effect, etc. So, no. Blood has nothing to do with it. Jonathon Kent Senior would be the better grandparent. He may not be blood related, but he was still Clark's father.
    And it was Jor El's fault that he never got the chance to raise Clark?? Are we blaming Jor El for the things that forced him to send Clark to Earth?

    Once again; Jon was still 11 (tops). He wasn't even a teenager. Not even out of grade school. This whole "need to grow without his parents" doesn't fly at that age.

    Again; ELEVEN years old. And that's not even including that he and Damian did their own thing on the weekends as the Super Sons.
    Yeah, the 11-year-old son of Superman who has powers and was obviously having an identity crisis. Damian was trained and honed his skills. Jon wasn't.

    11 year old. Still young kid that only really heroed when he didn't have school work to do. Stupid parents left him with highly questionable stranger that when they last saw him (before Man of Steel), was behind numerous acts of terrorism and atrocities. Then he suddenly goes *poof*, only turn up out of nowhere? C'mon!

    Jon is STILL a grade school kid. What's more, his parents have no problem helping him discover who he is. But letting him go off with Jor-El, and then Lois abandoning him there, and Clark NOT asking his many friends and contacts for help in regards to his son, is rank with out of character moments. Whereas in Rebirth, Clark smashed into the Bat Cave, pissed that his son was taken there.


    Yeah, leaving your son with a proven terrorist enabler, at 11 on a supposed "self discovery" quest, is freakin' stupid.
    As Sacred Knight pointed out, Jor El was not a terrorist enabler. Jor El was being mind controlled.

  4. #34
    Astonishing Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    I'm just going to refer you to the actual pages from Man of Steel #6:




    Yeah, when you're kid starts saying things like that, then its clear that he does have a need to grow and find himself.
    Yeah, generic lines from a teenager stuffed into a kid. Great. Yeah. Wow.



    And it was Jor El's fault that he never got the chance to raise Clark?? Are we blaming Jor El for the things that forced him to send Clark to Earth?
    Did I say it was Jor El's fault? No. But he still did not raise Clark, like it or not. He was never really in Clark's life aside from being a hologram. Making him a stranger to the Kents.
    Yeah, the 11-year-old son of Superman who has powers and was obviously having an identity crisis. Damian was trained and honed his skills. Jon wasn't.
    Hmm. Who's Jon's dad again? Perhaps the same person that grew up on Earth, his first years believing he was a regular kid until his own powers began coming into existence? The same one whom has trained and learned to use his powers responsibly over the course of his lifetime?

    But, no. Let's just send him to space for a while with a highly questionable person whom most likely has less experience in dealing with said powers than Clark. And let's not forget, not only was Clark helping Jon, but Damian was helping him learn how to control and harness his powers as well.


    As Sacred Knight pointed out, Jor El was not a terrorist enabler. Jor El was being mind controlled.
    Yeah, and what exactly changed? Last he was seen, he got whisked away elsewhere.



    Then he suddenly shows back up like nothing happened? Come on.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    Yeah, generic lines from a teenager stuffed into a kid. Great. Yeah. Wow.
    It shows that he was going through a questioning of his identity and how he fit in.

    Did I say it was Jor El's fault? No. But he still did not raise Clark, like it or not. He was never really in Clark's life aside from being a hologram. Making him a stranger to the Kents.
    But you're implying he shouldn't be trusted because he wasn't around. Except...it wasn't his fault that he wasn't around.

    Hmm. Who's Jon's dad again? Perhaps the same person that grew up on Earth, his first years believing he was a regular kid until his own powers began coming into existence? The same one whom has trained and learned to use his powers responsibly over the course of his lifetime?
    You know what I mean by training. Damian was literally made into an assassin from the time he was a child. I'm not saying that Jon should go through the same thing, but that does mean that Damian has an expertise in his abilities that Jon was lacking.

    But, no. Let's just send him to space for a while with a highly questionable person whom most likely has less experience in dealing with said powers than Clark. And let's not forget, not only was Clark helping Jon, but Damian was helping him learn how to control and harness his powers as well.
    He doesn't have less experience dealing with his powers than Clark because he was presumably taken from Krypton by Dr. Manhattan and developed powers around the same time as Clark was being rocketed to Earth. Jor El seems to have enough mastery over his powers to rival his son at least. And, again, he is Jon's grandfather. That tends to mean something.

    Also, what expertise does Damian have on Kryptonian abilities?

    Yeah, and what exactly changed? Last he was seen, he got whisked away elsewhere.



    Then he suddenly shows back up like nothing happened? Come on.
    You do realize that that panel reaffirms that a) Clark thinks of Jor El as his father and b) Jor El loves his family, right?

  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    I see nothing stupid about a young man wanting to find himself and learn how to live up to his father's legacy. That's what the whole trip was about. If Lois and Clark denied him the chance to learn how to be his own man, they'd be bad parents.



    Again, a lot of peope would tell you blood does mean something. Its not like Lois and Clark weren't skeptical, but at the end of the day, Jor El is his grandfather. And also at the end of the day, Jor El searched for Jon for years when he went missing and rescued him from Superwoman.



    Except for one important thing: for Jon to grow, she needed to let him. Right before he left, Jon expressed the need to grow and know who he was without his parents. That's the difference. If you can't see the significance of that, I don't know what to tell you.



    Again, he said he needed to find out who he was and to her it was obvious that he'd never accomplish that with her hovering over his shoulder. And, AGAIN, Lois thought she was leaving him with supervision with his grandfather. I don't see how this is worse than Reed Richards and Sue Storm literally welcoming Doom, their archenemy who has a creepy relationship with their daughter into the FF. In fact, I'd say Lois and Clark's choice here to be significantly more understandable. Yet, you don't see anyone attacking Reed and Sue's judgment.



    Yeah, why wouldn't he be okay with his parents. It was HIS choice to go with his grandfather. And Clark's anger at his father is being dealt with in the main Superman title. You know, if you're going to criticize something, it usually helps to read it first.



    Except for one really important thing: people act differently in different circumstances. This is something Peter David pointed out in an interview a few years back: that when fans say that someone is being out of character, sometimes its just code for "I don't like what happened here." People don't act the same way 100% of the time. They react to different things differently. It depends on the circumstance. There's a difference between Jon simply going on adventures with his dad and Jon needing to go out and discover who he is.

    But, yeah, let's just leave it at that.
    Dude, i was adopted at a young age. Taken away from my birth parents. Suddenly, if one of them showed up at my door step to take away my son for the summer. I will turn him down.i firmly believe, That's what people will do 90% of the time. Atmost, i will allow them to get back to know my kid and spend time with him. But under my families presence. Maybe after he earned my trust will i allow anything else. That will take alot of time and effort.

    Jor el hasn't done any of the things. But, clark and lois trusts him with their son, why? Because they are idiots(since no reason is given) . Nobody will give their son to a complete stranger. Who has shown tendencies of being unstable in their first meeting, i might add. Jor el's love doesn't mean jack shit. It doesn't matter, if him not being their wasn't his fault. Jor el hasn't earned trust. Trust is what matters.You can't seriously be saying you will give away your kid to a stranger with blood relation, are you?

    Damian doesn't need kryptonIan expertise to help jon. That's like pa kent needed kryptonIan expertise to help clark with his abilities. I know that's limited approach. But he has kara, clark and now kon. Learning to control your abilities is tough but they were doing it. The so called superflare incident is never mentioned again anyways. It was just a throwaway line. It is not mentioned if jon got over his fear again. Does he even know the superflare?

    Again, This ain't the pokémon world where 10 year old kids go to "journey of self discovery". Jon having doubts is natural. That's why clark is there to guide him through it.you don't send your kid away for that. You do know that kids have a tendency and want to getaway from home to go on some freaking imaginary adventure , right? That doesn't mean their parents will allow them..
    Jon needs to grow alot more before he can be allowed to make choices on his own. that is why parents are there at this young age. To protect him, sometimes from himself . His crying only makes it more obvious how much of pre-teen he really is.

    This whole thing just make clois as incompetent in my eyes. I have read the latest issue. Clark's anger doesn't mean anything. Jor el and clark are not even discussing jon. They are discussing the most generic villain rogol zarr "the mystery reveal" which is taking forever.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 07-20-2019 at 08:28 PM.

  7. #37
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Dude, i was adopted at a young age. Taken away from my birth parents. Suddenly, if one of them showed up at my door step to take away my son for the summer. I will turn him down.i firmly believe, That's what people will do 90% of the time. Atmost, i will allow them to get back to know my kid and spend time with him. But under my families presence. Maybe after he earned my trust will i allow anything else. That will take alot of time and effort.

    Jor el hasn't done any of the things. But, clark and lois trusts him with their son, why? Because they are idiots(since no reason is given) . Nobody will give their son to a complete stranger. Who has shown tendencies of being unstable in their first meeting, i might add. Jor el's love doesn't mean jack shit. It doesn't matter, if him not being their wasn't his fault. Jor el hasn't earned trust. Trust is what matters.You can't seriously be saying you will give away your kid to a stranger with blood relation, are you?

    Damian doesn't need kryptonIan expertise to help jon. That's like pa kent needed kryptonIan expertise to help clark with his abilities. I know that's limited approach. But he has kara, clark and now kon. Learning to control your abilities is tough but they were doing it. The so called superflare incident is never mentioned again anyways. It was just a throwaway line. It is not mentioned if jon got over his fear again. Does he even know the superflare?

    Again, This ain't the pokémon world where 10 year old kids go to "journey of self discovery". Jon having doubts is natural. That's why clark is there to guide him through it.you don't send your kid away for that. You do know that kids have a tendency and want to getaway from home to go on some freaking imaginary adventure , right? That doesn't mean their parents will allow them..
    Jon needs to grow alot more before he can be allowed to make choices on his own. that is why parents are there at this young age. To protect him, sometimes from himself . His crying only makes it more obvious how much of pre-teen he really is.

    This whole thing just make clois as incompetent in my eyes. I have read the latest issue. Clark's anger doesn't mean anything. Jor el and clark are not even discussing jon. They are discussing the most generic villain rogol zarr "the mystery reveal" which is taking forever.
    Your biological father sacrificed himself to send you to safety in a rocketship he built, moments before your entire planet and civilization ended?

    I mean, I feel like the dude deserves a little benefit of the doubt after that right? I'd say he doesnt really have to earn your trust, dude has guided Superman from his Fortress all these years.

    This isnt the same thing as a normal biological father getting back into your life. This is Jor-El, starfather.
    Last edited by Flash Gordon; 07-20-2019 at 10:59 PM.
    Follow your inner moonlight, do not hide the madness. -Ginsberg

  8. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash Gordon View Post
    Your biological father sacrificed himself to send you to safety in a rocketship he built, moments before your entire planet and civilization ended?

    I mean, I feel like the dude deserves a little benefit of the doubt after that right? I'd say he doesnt really have to earn your trust, dude has guided Superman from his Fortress all these years.

    This isnt the same thing as a normal biological father getting back into your life. This is Jor-El, starfather.
    By that logic giving damian to thomas wayne batman would be a-ok.thomas can help retrain damian in killing people, again(sarcasm ) . Hologram of the old Jor el means nothing. In the current context, jor el is a stranger. He lived years away on earth and god knows where. He is not the same jor el, the starfather. He is not even a father figure. So, i would say it is similar situation. Clark has seen how unstable jor el can be . He has been nothing but a jerk to him since his return.So, no sane parent will allow their child to stay with him that too alone and without any means of contact .
    I am not saying clark shouldn't be sympathetic or help Jor el. But, sending your kid with him would be considered idiotic. As i said Clark as a parent has been moron of epic proportions, since bendis.this and Not talking to, hal jordan was dumbest thing i have seen. So much so that, He can make goku start to look good.
    I understand, kryptonIan side and immigrant nature of the superman charater is important. I am not trying to play it down or anything. But, the current jor el is not the same man. Jon has no relation to him. Jon has spent more time with sam lane than jor el in this continuity.

  9. #39
    Legendary Member daBronzeBomma's Avatar
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    I had high hopes for Bendis on Superman. It's weird to witness someone be so hit-or-miss with so much of a franchise.

    Superman (by himself): hit
    Superman (with Lois): big miss
    Superman (with Jon): big miss
    Lois Lane: big miss (but Rucka is correcting a lot of that in Lois' own series)
    Jon: missed so wildly he struck himself in the head
    Jor-El: please die
    Supergirl: hit
    Krypto: hit
    Rogol Zaar: big miss

    I cannot wait for Bendis to leave the Superverse. Probably one more year of this nonsense. I'll take a no-name Writer who has a much better grasp of writing Superman (and parenthood).

    And if you're not raising (or never raised) kids yourself, I don't want to hear how you think Clois was normal in their decision.

    If you have kids (powered or not), you would never entrust them to someone you didn't know.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash Gordon View Post
    Your biological father sacrificed himself to send you to safety in a rocketship he built, moments before your entire planet and civilization ended?

    I mean, I feel like the dude deserves a little benefit of the doubt after that right? I'd say he doesnt really have to earn your trust, dude has guided Superman from his Fortress all these years.

    This isnt the same thing as a normal biological father getting back into your life. This is Jor-El, starfather.
    Jor-El is still a guy Clark has never actually met and whom did not give Clark any adequate reason to trust him when they met in person for the first time. If Clark can't see past his blood connection to Jor-El to determine if he's actually trustworthy then he has no business being a parent.

  11. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by daBronzeBomma View Post
    I had high hopes for Bendis on Superman. It's weird to witness someone be so hit-or-miss with so much of a franchise.

    Superman (by himself): hit
    Superman (with Lois): big miss
    Superman (with Jon): big miss
    Lois Lane: big miss (but Rucka is correcting a lot of that in Lois' own series)
    Jon: missed so wildly he struck himself in the head
    Jor-El: please die
    Supergirl: hit
    Krypto: hit
    Rogol Zaar: big miss

    I cannot wait for Bendis to leave the Superverse. Probably one more year of this nonsense. I'll take a no-name Writer who has a much better grasp of writing Superman (and parenthood).

    And if you're not raising (or never raised) kids yourself, I don't want to hear how you think Clois was normal in their decision.

    If you have kids (powered or not), you would never entrust them to someone you didn't know.
    This is how i feel. agreed on the hit and miss parts. Superhero parenthood is tricky to write. You have to make it fun and wierd with super adventures without making it look like child abuse, especially for a character like superman .you can't stick to all the norms either since that will become boring.
    Bendis crossed that line and even included abuse. But, never tackled it fully. Jon's life in a volcano and mental state was never really explored. If you aren't going address the issue. Don't cross the line.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Dude, i was adopted at a young age. Taken away from my birth parents. Suddenly, if one of them showed up at my door step to take away my son for the summer. I will turn him down.i firmly believe, That's what people will do 90% of the time. Atmost, i will allow them to get back to know my kid and spend time with him. But under my families presence. Maybe after he earned my trust will i allow anything else. That will take alot of time and effort.

    Jor el hasn't done any of the things. But, clark and lois trusts him with their son, why? Because they are idiots(since no reason is given) . Nobody will give their son to a complete stranger. Who has shown tendencies of being unstable in their first meeting, i might add. Jor el's love doesn't mean jack shit. It doesn't matter, if him not being their wasn't his fault. Jor el hasn't earned trust. Trust is what matters.You can't seriously be saying you will give away your kid to a stranger with blood relation, are you?

    Damian doesn't need kryptonIan expertise to help jon. That's like pa kent needed kryptonIan expertise to help clark with his abilities. I know that's limited approach. But he has kara, clark and now kon. Learning to control your abilities is tough but they were doing it. The so called superflare incident is never mentioned again anyways. It was just a throwaway line. It is not mentioned if jon got over his fear again. Does he even know the superflare?

    Again, This ain't the pokémon world where 10 year old kids go to "journey of self discovery". Jon having doubts is natural. That's why clark is there to guide him through it.you don't send your kid away for that. You do know that kids have a tendency and want to getaway from home to go on some freaking imaginary adventure , right? That doesn't mean their parents will allow them..
    Jon needs to grow alot more before he can be allowed to make choices on his own. that is why parents are there at this young age. To protect him, sometimes from himself . His crying only makes it more obvious how much of pre-teen he really is.

    This whole thing just make clois as incompetent in my eyes. I have read the latest issue. Clark's anger doesn't mean anything. Jor el and clark are not even discussing jon. They are discussing the most generic villain rogol zarr "the mystery reveal" which is taking forever.
    Well, again, as Flash Gordon pointed out, Jor El saved his son from a dying planet and was fully prepared to sacrifice himself. So, yeah, I'd say that he's shown that he cares about his family above all else. I'm not saying that he's perfect or that he doesn't have issues. But from that perspective, it does make at least a little sense that Lois and Clark would give him some benefit of the doubt.

    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    By that logic giving damian to thomas wayne batman would be a-ok.thomas can help retrain damian in killing people, again(sarcasm )
    Except Thomas Wayne Batman has willingly and knowingly partnered with Bane, a maniacal villain, and has participated in the conquest of Gotham by said villain.

    Hologram of the old Jor el means nothing. In the current context, jor el is a stranger. He lived years away on earth and god knows where. He is not the same jor el, the starfather. He is not even a father figure. So, i would say it is similar situation. Clark has seen how unstable jor el can be . He has been nothing but a jerk to him since his return.So, no sane parent will allow their child to stay with him that too alone and without any means of contact .
    I am not saying clark shouldn't be sympathetic or help Jor el. But, sending your kid with him would be considered idiotic. As i said Clark as a parent has been moron of epic proportions, since bendis.this and Not talking to, hal jordan was dumbest thing i have seen. So much so that, He can make goku start to look good.
    I understand, kryptonIan side and immigrant nature of the superman charater is important. I am not trying to play it down or anything. But, the current jor el is not the same man. Jon has no relation to him. Jon has spent more time with sam lane than jor el in this continuity.
    So, the man who saved Clark from a dying planet, helped give Clark the technology that built the fortress, and in many cases set it up so that he could continue to be a guiding hand to Clark on his journey even when he was gone...is nothing better than a stranger? Okay.

    Also it would make sense that Jon's spent more time with Sam Lane, since Jor El tends to be dead in most cases. Its only been recently revealed that he was saved from Krypton. Sam Lane, though, also tends to be a Superman-hating sociopath, so...

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Well, again, as Flash Gordon pointed out, Jor El saved his son from a dying planet and was fully prepared to sacrifice himself. So, yeah, I'd say that he's shown that he cares about his family above all else. I'm not saying that he's perfect or that he doesn't have issues. But from that perspective, it does make at least a little sense that Lois and Clark would give him some benefit of the doubt.



    Except Thomas Wayne Batman has willingly and knowingly partnered with Bane, a maniacal villain, and has participated in the conquest of Gotham by said villain.



    So, the man who saved Clark from a dying planet, helped give Clark the technology that built the fortress, and in many cases set it up so that he could continue to be a guiding hand to Clark on his journey even when he was gone...is nothing better than a stranger? Okay.

    Also it would make sense that Jon's spent more time with Sam Lane, since Jor El tends to be dead in most cases. Its only been recently revealed that he was saved from Krypton. Sam Lane, though, also tends to be a Superman-hating sociopath, so...
    Yes, he's a stranger. A stranger that may have helped save Clark's life but a stranger nonetheless. Clark does not know Jor-El as a person, he did not grow up with him.

  14. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Well, again, as Flash Gordon pointed out, Jor El saved his son from a dying planet and was fully prepared to sacrifice himself. So, yeah, I'd say that he's shown that he cares about his family above all else. I'm not saying that he's perfect or that he doesn't have issues. But from that perspective, it does make at least a little sense that Lois and Clark would give him some benefit of the doubt.



    Except Thomas Wayne Batman has willingly and knowingly partnered with Bane, a maniacal villain, and has participated in the conquest of Gotham by said villain.



    So, the man who saved Clark from a dying planet, helped give Clark the technology that built the fortress, and in many cases set it up so that he could continue to be a guiding hand to Clark on his journey even when he was gone...is nothing better than a stranger? Okay.

    Also it would make sense that Jon's spent more time with Sam Lane, since Jor El tends to be dead in most cases. Its only been recently revealed that he was saved from Krypton. Sam Lane, though, also tends to be a Superman-hating sociopath, so...
    That doesn't matter. Sam lane put his political differences aside with his daughter for the sake of family and his grandson. Regardless of what he feels about Superman, jon is his grandson.Sam lane is sane. Sam lane is building a relation without using blood relation card with his daughter and child. He is trying and making an effort. Unlike jor el, who barged in and demanded their child like Rumpelstilzchen.

    As i said, not the same jor el.the old jor el wasn't tortured and brainwashed basically entirety of his son's life. This jor el is twisted, has an existential crisis and is very much broken. You don't give your child to this person without supervision. Even if it was old jor el it takes time for relation to build enough to entrust someone with your kid.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    That doesn't matter. Sam lane put his political differences aside with his daughter for the sake of family and his grandson. Regardless of what he feels about Superman, jon is his grandson.Sam lane is sane. Sam lane is building a relation without using blood relation card with his daughter and child. He is trying and making an effort. Unlike jor el, who barged in and demanded their child like Rumpelstilzchen.
    So you wouldn't call offering to guide Jon so he can learn more about himself and what it means to be Kryptonian as making an effort?? That, on its face, says that Jor El wants to get to know his grandson.

    Also, Sam Lane has been shown not to be sane in the past and has targeted Superman many, many times. In fact, some could even qualify Sam Lane as a Superman villain based on his past actions. And what steps has he taken to correct that? Last we saw, Lois basically told him Clark and Superman were one and the same and he...did nothing in response to that.

    As i said, not the same jor el.the old jor el wasn't tortured and brainwashed basically entirety of his son's life. This jor el is twisted, has an existential crisis and is very much broken. You don't give your child to this person without supervision. Even if it was old jor el it takes time for relation to build enough to entrust someone with your kid.
    Again, he seemed lucid. And let's not forget that Jor El technically wasn't the cause of the trauma Jon experienced in space. In fact, Jon probably wouldn't have ended up being imprisoned by Ultraman if he'd just stuck with his grandfather. And actually, Jor El ended up saving him from Superwoman. In the end, though, Jor El is actually being shown to be targeted by the Circle, so its not like he's paranoid without reason.

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