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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulysses View Post
    What I'm driving at is that story trumps timeline, every time, hands down. There is no amount of internal timeline consistency that will smooth over a bad story. But a good story will make me forget an inconsistent timeline in an instant.
    But there are also a lot of stories that work much better if there is some kind of consistent continuity.
    The whole interaction between Batfamily characters kind of suffered in the new 52, because apparently not even the writers knew which part of their past were canon.

    Or look at Deathstroke, we had 3 different runs since flashpoint, each time they completely changed his history and his relation with the rest of his family (Grant was for example alive at the beginning of the new 52, but now he was dead because Judas Contract is back in canon). Thats super confusing. If I read a new Deathstroke series, I want to enjoy a story and not spending most of time trying to make sense out of what is canon and what isn't.

  2. #62
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingaliencracker View Post
    It is interesting that Didio calls NEW 52 a failure.

    While I wasn't a big fan of a lot of the changes that came with New 52, I wouldn't necessarily call it a failure especially initially. The problem with New 52 is that they didn't fix the glaring problems that were popping up shortly after it was initiated, and in some cases doubled down on them. There were some things working with New 52 (JL, Morrison's Superman, Snyder's Batman). But as with Crisis on Infinite Earths, they just didn't have a firm plan in place either before they began New 52 or after certain things that definitely weren't working began branching out to the successful titles.
    I would disagree with the sentiment as well. I mean, the lack of planning probably would have kept on hurting it in increasing increments as time went on had they kept on trucking, but what really failed out-and-out was DCYou. I mean, that was a movement within the New 52, so it effectively is responsible for killing the whole smash, but the original idea didn't fail.

    In any case, yeah. I've heard this before and I have no real reason to think they'll get things sorted to a reasonable degree this time. As you already stated there's only a couple ways to do it, neither which will be their approach.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 07-19-2019 at 01:54 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    The issue is a lot of these characters are NOT getting those great stories.

    Others have been held hostage by one or more types of stories and not allowed to evolve from them.

    Barry has everything at the expense of Wally.

    Same with the other Lanterns when compared to Hal. John Stewart is MORE than a blown up planet.

    Cassandra Cain is a SHELL of herself because her history is gone.

    Jason Rusch-Doomsday Clock pretty much made it clear he was NEVER Firestorm.

    Was Tim Drake ever Robin?

    You got too many empty shells out there because no knows if their past stories matter.

    It makes it harder to sell a character or attract talent to write them. And you open them to whatever mess a writer or worst editor has for them.

    See Aqualad. His first talk or encounter with Aquaman is from JAIL? Way to be New 52 Wally Westish.
    we cant save everyone, some people would have to disappear or die

  4. #64
    Astonishing Member HandofPrometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulysses View Post
    Questions like this... I appreciate that this is important to people but I don't get it. Can you pick up your issues of 80s SS and read them? Well, those stories happen while you're reading them, no?

    I don't understand DC editorial or the fans having this desire to force linear chronological coherence on a fictional universe that has characters stay the same age for 80 years. This has to be a byproduct of our scientific materialist paradigm or the western world's fetishization of certainty or something dysfunctional somewhere.

    Look at all of human history and its mythological endeavors, internal coherence was not a priority. These stories are simply supposed to resonate with us on a human level. Tell great stories and I'm confident no one's going to care if the timeline makes sense.
    Stories without consistency is a no from me.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    But there are also a lot of stories that work much better if there is some kind of consistent continuity.
    The whole interaction between Batfamily characters kind of suffered in the new 52, because apparently not even the writers knew which part of their past were canon.

    Or look at Deathstroke, we had 3 different runs since flashpoint, each time they completely changed his history and his relation with the rest of his family (Grant was for example alive at the beginning of the new 52, but now he was dead because Judas Contract is back in canon). Thats super confusing. If I read a new Deathstroke series, I want to enjoy a story and not spending most of time trying to make sense out of what is canon and what isn't.
    Exactly. I don't see why people keep reverting to this argument that "story should trump continuity." It's a bad argument. Continuity is one of the basic building blocks of storytelling. Whenever I read The Glass Menagerie, I don't expect Tom and Laura's father to show up mid-way through, acting as if he's always been there, when it establishes from the beginning that he abandoned the family 16 years prior to the events of the play. That fact largely shapes every single character in that play. Likewise, the fact that Slade's son dies going up against the Titans shapes who Deathstroke is and how the Death of Superman shaped Superman, his supporting cast, Hal Jordan, Kyle Rayner, etc.

  6. #66
    Astonishing Member Badou's Avatar
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    There is a 0% chance this ends well. DC is too deep in their mess to ever make any sort of proper continuity that makes sense. Different eras constantly bleed into each other with the turnover of creators liking certain history more than others.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    There is a 0% chance this ends well. DC is too deep in their mess to ever make any sort of proper continuity that makes sense. Different eras constantly bleed into each other with the turnover of creators liking certain history more than others.
    Exactly. Which is why I'm not sure they're even bothering. It's a waste of time and energy.
    His current approval rating is 34%, meaning 34% of Americans are still morons.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulysses View Post
    This will sound snippy but I mean it sincerely. If you read a story you loved about a character you loved but that story had continuity inconsistent with stories about the same character told 30 years prior would you consider the story to be a bad story?


    For Didio to make an announcement about fixing the timeline is barely news to me. The fact that they even are spending resources on this is actually bad news to me.
    Depends on the show in question. Take PBS's Arthur-which does this ALL THE TIME. As does the Simpsons. And we won't discuss Dr Who or Star Trek-who will gladly tell DC to HOLD MY BEER when it comes to timelines.

    Looking at YOU Voyager-folks forget that Harry Kim & Naomi Wildman are from another reality. And there were Constitution class ships taking on the Borg.


    What I'm driving at is that story trumps timeline, every time, hands down. There is no amount of internal timeline consistency that will smooth over a bad story. But a good story will make me forget an inconsistent timeline in an instant.
    You have to have stuff in place for a basic timeline.
    Not folks doing reboots on the fly.
    See Duke Thomas-the guy in Outsiders and did cameos in Batman is NOT the same person in Batman & Signal nor Detective Comics nor We Are Robin.


    It betrays their messed up priorities. Forget about the timeline and clarify for yourself and your staff what it is about your stories that makes them timeless and important. Make that your priority. Story is king.
    Dan and friends SCREWED this up when they decided to ruin the Dick Grayson era Titans because they made Batman look old unlike his bratty teen kid-who is the one who makes him look REAL old. Along with ruining others like Cassandra Cain.

    They caused this mess.

  9. #69
    Fantastic Member Ulysses's Avatar
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    Sorry, can someone tell me what "TPTB" stands for?
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  10. #70
    Incredible Member Vampire Savior's Avatar
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    Continuity is important for every story, whether it's continuity unto that story itself, or in a larger sense. Why should we read these comics when we have strong reason to believe the events in the comics will not matter, or will be in question, as soon as one year later? Why should we invest in these characters when we don't even know who they are anymore, or what they've done, or when they're constantly contradicting the character we came to know and like, who looks like them and is called by the same name? Good stories and continuity that makes sense aren't mutually exclusive. DC got themselves in this position with extremely bad editing.

  11. #71
    Fantastic Member Potanical Pardon's Avatar
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    *checks in to see if there was an announcement at SDCC that Didio is gone*

    Nope. Guess I'll continue to ignore DC.

    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    Here's a starting point for them:

    Of course, it dates back to 1994's Zero Hour, so it would need some retooling . . .
    This is EXACTLY the best thing that happened out of Zero Hour and nothing like it has been seen since. All the books followed this to a T until...you guessed it, Mr. Didio came along. Any continuity problems were few (Hawkman, Superboy/Legion, etc.) but would get fixed and slot right in just fine.
    Last edited by Potanical Pardon; 07-19-2019 at 03:38 PM.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    There is a 0% chance this ends well. DC is too deep in their mess to ever make any sort of proper continuity that makes sense. Different eras constantly bleed into each other with the turnover of creators liking certain history more than others.
    Not to mention, given the creatives involved in crafting this history, I'd be surprised if it didn't lean a certain way that benefits DC editorial's mandates then the actual DCU.

    So, expect the Batgirls, Titans, Wally, and other assorted characters to probably still get the short thrift.

  13. #73
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Yeah, I'll believe it when I see it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Dude what? Pre-Crisis had no continuity, there were no long running storylines and the writers just did whatever they wanted. Origins changed, characterizations changed, stories were retconned to take place on different Earths, Pre-Crisis was such a mess itís why they did CoIE in the first place.
    I dunno, I have pre-Crisis Batman, Titans, Superman, Swamp Thing, JLA and Legion comics and there is definitely continuity in those.

    The messes pre-COIE seem pretty tame compared to some of the nightmares that came after.

  14. #74

  15. #75
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Potanical Pardon View Post
    *checks in to see if there was an announcement at SDCC that Didio is gone*

    Nope. Guess I'll continue to ignore DC.



    This is EXACTLY the best thing that happened out of Zero Hour and nothing like it has been seen since. All the books followed this to a T until...you guessed it, Mr. Didio came along. Any continuity problems were few (Hawkman, Superboy/Legion, etc.) but would get fixed and slot right in just fine.
    Let it also be said that Didio himself once presided over an era of DC where "story over continuity" was emphasized.

    They even made a meme out of it.

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