Superman: Red Son and Superman: Man of Tomorrow Animated Feature Films

[Vordan]

Ok guys I also watched the feature teasing Apokolips War and it honestly piqued my interest. The whole thing reminds me of Rock of Ages:
spoilers:

The JL goes to Apokolips to fight Darkseid and gets utterly ******. Supes gets a goddamn Kryptonite S-shield tattoed into his chest after he falls which is the most Metal thing ever, Scott Snyder eat your heart out lmao. It leaves him in constant pain and severely weakened. Rest of the League seems to have been brainwashed into serving Darkseid and he prepares to conquer Earth. Superman, Raven, and Constantine have to rally the survivors to somehow save the Earth, so Supes is starring in all three movies which I’m ecstatic about. No complaints from me if next year has the two part Long Halloween movie that was rumored, they’ve given Supes a big push this year. Also this might be the ending of the DCAMU? It’s not clear if it’s the finale for just the Darkseid plotline or the universe as a whole. If they’re ending the current continuity, the upcoming Man of Tomorrow might be standalone or a kickoff to the next continuity.

end of spoilers

I’m pretty excited!

[DochaDocha]

Just finished watching it. I really loved it, I’d give it an A honestly. It’s definitely one of the best Superman movies.
spoilers:

Some things were changed for the better. WW leaving because she’s grown sick of Superman’s abuses instead of being mad he wouldn’t give her some Superdick is a much better change. WW hating all men was kind of stupid but whatever. Hot take: Changing the ending makes the story feel much happier. There’s hope that maybe Supes can find peace now that he’s stepped down from power instead of showing him as responsible for setting the Earth on the path to becoming Krypton. The voice acting was great all around. I though Isaacs did a fantastic job, and the man has now voiced Superman and Lex making him and Troy Baker the only two to voice the hero and their iconic villain. Speaking of Lex they’ve made him an outright hero rather than the book where he’s still the same jackass Lex but Supes is an anti villain so Lex is opposed to him not out of morals but principles. I’m ok with either take, I think both work fine. I loved the back and forth Lois and Supes had at the start of the movie, that was great. Wish we could’ve gotten more scenes between them but I get there’s a time limit. Also Brainiac’s robotic voice was really cool. Batman was great, I loved that Timm or whoever did wuss out, they showed the museum full of children getting blown up and then they included a shot of Superman looking at the bodies just to hammer it home.

end of spoilers

To me it actually worked because in the book Millar completely ignored the gulags existence and didn’t really address that at all, unlike how Morrison did address Overman’s feelings about the Nazi concentration camps. I can totally see Supes reacting like he did if he were to discover gulags and he’s clearly heartbroken over doing it. He still keeps the preference on brainwashing over murder later on so it didn’t really change him too much. Plus it’s Stalin, I was practically cheering when it happened lol.

Also to address your complaint about Timm: He doesn’t always adapt Batman stories panel for panel. Red Hood is VERY different from the book. Hush obviously is VERY different from the book. And Timm was pretty good at adapting All-Star I thought, even if he cut the GOAT scene with Regan which sucked. But this movie was surprisingly faithful and I think it captured the core well.

Ugh defending Bruce Timm in regards to Superman makes me feel ill lol.

Haha, I get you.

Specifically, I was referring to the 80's stuff, including the two Frank Miller movies and "The Killing Joke." In particular, when Year One was released, the hype for it focused heavily on how they tried as hard as they could to get it panel-for-panel. I sort of see it as that those three 80's movies are elevated above other movies in that they needed to be as close as possible to the comics, for whatever reason. I think sometimes changes work. Under the Red Hood needed a few tweaks for pacing, and the movie was great. Plus, Lazarus Pits was a simpler, and perhaps more satisfying, explanation than that Superboy Prime was punching the walls of reality, yaddy yaddy yadda. I think the conclusion for Luthor in All-Star Superman is actually better than in the comics, and I think even Morrison himself was complimentary of the new ending. But a lot of the changes do seem random, and not for the better, and I just wonder why did they even bother?

spoilers:

I did think that recognizing the Gulags and making them an integral part of the story has value. Making Superman himself kill Stalin didn't work for me. In the vast sea of Evil Superman! stories, "Red Son" distinguishes itself by being one where Superman didn't just take over suddenly. So yeah, seeing Superman kill Stalin could be like watching Captain America punch Hitler, but then the story loses some of its unique ID. Oh yeah, someone who's read the story more recently than I have: I figured the original story was that Superman simply had no solution to undo the shrinking of Stalingrad, not that he refused. Am I wrong here? If Superman simply didn't bother doing it even though he could, then it (like the killing of Stalin) just makes this another generic Evil Superman! story. Even though Wonder Woman was the jilted lover in the story and that probably wasn't a good thing, I always figured it that she started resenting Superman because he was willing to sacrifice her for his mission. It's a Superman story, right, not a JL story? You lose a bit as a Superman story when you remove the part when he begs her to break her lasso. Also, I can almost imagine someone snickering in the meeting room when they decided to make WW a man-hating lesbian.

end of spoilers

You could tell they regretted leaving that scene out because they did a tribute to it in Justice League: Doom, although it didn't end well for Superman.

Yeah, I hear you. The first thing I thought about when I saw that scene was it was a "make-up" for removing it from All-Star Superman.

Ok guys I also watched the feature teasing Apokolips War and it honestly piqued my interest. The whole thing reminds me of Rock of Ages:
spoilers:

The JL goes to Apokolips to fight Darkseid and gets utterly ******. Supes gets a goddamn Kryptonite S-shield tattoed into his chest after he falls which is the most Metal thing ever, Scott Snyder eat your heart out lmao. It leaves him in constant pain and severely weakened. Rest of the League seems to have been brainwashed into serving Darkseid and he prepares to conquer Earth. Superman, Raven, and Constantine have to rally the survivors to somehow save the Earth, so Supes is starring in all three movies which I’m ecstatic about. No complaints from me if next year has the two part Long Halloween movie that was rumored, they’ve given Supes a big push this year. Also this might be the ending of the DCAMU? It’s not clear if it’s the finale for just the Darkseid plotline or the universe as a whole. If they’re ending the current continuity, the upcoming Man of Tomorrow might be standalone or a kickoff to the next continuity.

end of spoilers

I’m pretty excited!

Yeah, at first when I heard it was going to be a JLD movie, I cared a lot less, but now I'm more intrigued.

[qwertyuiop1998]

spoilers:

I think one change that was for the worse was that Superman himself offed Stalin, instead of Stalin's assassination by poison. It's like they wanted to accelerate the story in the style of Injustice or the Justice League episode "A Better World." To me, the story has a much different feel when there's a power vacuum created when the leadership is all of a sudden gone compared to when Superman creates it himself. Perhaps my memory of the story is off, but something about "Red Son" made it feel less cliched and tired next to other Evil Superman stories, in part because there wasn't such a sudden rush for power early on.

end of spoilers

Yeah, That is the most disappointing part, The original Red Son already is a nearly perfect story and really gives respects to Superman personality. The animation just makes a story that about another evil version of superman instead of a story that about what if superman's rocket landing on Russia. Totally ruined the depth and personality from the orginal red son Supes.

[Vordan]

He didn’t really feel very evil to me, or at the very least not anywhere near Justice Lord/Injustice Superman.

[Yoda]

Ok guys I also watched the feature teasing Apokolips War and it honestly piqued my interest. The whole thing reminds me of Rock of Ages:
spoilers:

The JL goes to Apokolips to fight Darkseid and gets utterly ******. Supes gets a goddamn Kryptonite S-shield tattoed into his chest after he falls which is the most Metal thing ever, Scott Snyder eat your heart out lmao. It leaves him in constant pain and severely weakened. Rest of the League seems to have been brainwashed into serving Darkseid and he prepares to conquer Earth. Superman, Raven, and Constantine have to rally the survivors to somehow save the Earth, so Supes is starring in all three movies which I’m ecstatic about. No complaints from me if next year has the two part Long Halloween movie that was rumored, they’ve given Supes a big push this year. Also this might be the ending of the DCAMU? It’s not clear if it’s the finale for just the Darkseid plotline or the universe as a whole. If they’re ending the current continuity, the upcoming Man of Tomorrow might be standalone or a kickoff to the next continuity.

end of spoilers

I’m pretty excited!

There's three Apokolips War movies planned? Or did you mean AW, Red Son, and Man of Tomorrow?

[DochaDocha]

He didn’t really feel very evil to me, or at the very least not anywhere near Justice Lord/Injustice Superman.

True, my comparison is a bit off in that this Superman is nowhere nearly as bad as those two guys. I would like to keep RS Supes as distinct as possible as those guys.

spoilers:

The part when RS Supes heat visioned Stalin... I mean, that's not part of the RS story (I think, again it's been a long time), but it's a very distinct part of those other two guys' characters, heat visioning President Luthor and then Shazam. Like I said, there are so many Evil Superman! stories out there, the last thing I'd want to see is for one of the good and distinct ones to blend together with the less good ones.

end of spoilers

The movie is fine, but the parts that are original for animation do feel distracting when there's no obviously good reason to switch this and that.

[Frontier]

There's three Apokolips War movies planned? Or did you mean AW, Red Son, and Man of Tomorrow?

I think Vordan meant the three films this year.

Apokolips War apparently ends in a place where it's difficult to make a sequel for, or so I hear.

Specifically, I was referring to the 80's stuff, including the two Frank Miller movies and "The Killing Joke." In particular, when Year One was released, the hype for it focused heavily on how they tried as hard as they could to get it panel-for-panel. I sort of see it as that those three 80's movies are elevated above other movies in that they needed to be as close as possible to the comics, for whatever reason. I think sometimes changes work. Under the Red Hood needed a few tweaks for pacing, and the movie was great. Plus, Lazarus Pits was a simpler, and perhaps more satisfying, explanation than that Superboy Prime was punching the walls of reality, yaddy yaddy yadda. I think the conclusion for Luthor in All-Star Superman is actually better than in the comics, and I think even Morrison himself was complimentary of the new ending. But a lot of the changes do seem random, and not for the better, and I just wonder why did they even bother?

They made some controversial changes to Killing Joke. Especially when it came to Barbara.

[manwhohaseverything]

He didn’t really feel very evil to me, or at the very least not anywhere near Justice Lord/Injustice Superman.

He had the brainwashing tech. Which was the major fall. Otherwise, he "ended" the Korean war pretty quickly with thousands dead, instead of millions .That's it.

The stupidest part is batman beating up miltary superman. But, i guess it's in the books. So i can't complain. Still, that was just a massive beat down. I am just damn tired of the fear lights and rocks. God forbid superman without powers defends himself. This is particularly why i love the scene with smallville clark.Him descarding his fake strength for real one was truly great to see. The guy used to get always get beat up everyother episode because of rocks and lights. It was about time he said, i am done with this. The character was written to do. I am glad.

[qwertyuiop1998]

He didn’t really feel very evil to me, or at the very least not anywhere near Justice Lord/Injustice Superman.

Not as evil as Injustice or Justice Lord Superman, But he certainly isn't as good as the original RS superman.
I mean in the original Red Son I can actually feel it was the superman that I've known for years, But the animation trying to blend some dark parts to his personality. In the comics RS supes is a comparison to Stalin, RS superman isn't a politician like him, He is selfless, pure heart, The only reason he wants to become leader of russia was because he had seen Lana and others suffering from starving, But in the animation his reason not as noble as the comics. And that is the part I thinking RS Superman is separate from other alternative versions of superman, He is as noble as the main DCU superman, It just his rocket landing on russia

[DochaDocha]

They made some controversial changes to Killing Joke. Especially when it came to Barbara.

I knew someone would eventually call me out on that, so I should've explained in my first post.

In The Killing Joke, they tried to make the back end of the movie match the graphic novel. The Barbara part in the beginning was stuff they added to fill the runtime, as well as being an (unsuccessful) attempt to make Barbara more than just the Joker's villain. It's not like they took the original story and decided various details needed improvement like they sometimes do with these non-80s Batman stories, and to their credit, sometimes the changes work.

And again, I understand sometimes things need to be adapted to be more suitable for movie format, such as pacing issues, condensing or expanding upon a story to fit the runtime, etc., but I often wonder what's the rationale of why 80s Batman stories are left largely intact but other stories get edited.

[Vordan]

Not as evil as Injustice or Justice Lord Superman, But he certainly isn't as good as the original RS superman.
I mean in the original Red Son I can actually feel it was the superman that I've known for years, But the animation trying to blend some dark parts to his personality. In the comics RS supes is a comparison to Stalin, RS superman isn't a politician like him, He is selfless, pure heart, The only reason he wants to become leader of russia was because he had seen Lana and others suffering from starving, But in the animation his reason not as noble as the comics. And that is the part I thinking RS Superman is separate from other alternative versions of superman, He is as noble as the main DCU superman, It just his rocket landing on russia

That was still the main reason in the animation though. Him seeing Lana in the Gulag is what pushed him to take over, and he explicitly says he shut down the gulags. Don’t get me wrong, he’s clearly a little darker than the comic, but nowhere near “evil” Supermen. He’s hurt by Diana’s breaking of their friendship, he doesn’t kill anyone who speaks up to him (even if what he does is no less ******* up), he doesn’t have concentration camps, and he still resists Brainiac urging him to invade the USA until the very end. He’s very much the anti-villain in the movie he is in the comic imo.

And to be honest the comic has a problem with Superman’s characterization in that you’re right he is explicitly the same guy as “normal” Superman at the start just on the Soviet side. However the comic never bothers to explain how that guy decided to start brainwashing people despite generally being a moral person at the start. The time jumps in the comic kind of dodge that development the same as they dodged the issue of the gulags. The movie doesn’t dodge it, this Supes is clearly traumatized by what he did to Stalin that he instead sticks to not executing people, rather using brainwashing since in his eyes that means he’s “better” than Stalin. Of course as Batman and then Lex point out, he’s really not that much better morally with regards to that issue.

There's three Apokolips War movies planned? Or did you mean AW, Red Son, and Man of Tomorrow?

Mean that all three movies coming out this year have Supes in leading roles. Next year I’m expecting it to be the two part Long Halloween adaption and the TT movie that’s been rumored and I’m cool with that. They’ve done right by Superman this year in terms of giving him screen time. He’s explicitly the main character of two movies and the feature teasing AW has him in the drivers seat as well.

There may be no blockbuster film with our boy anytime soon but he’s thankfully still getting some screen time lol.

[Robotman]

That was still the main reason in the animation though. Him seeing Lana in the Gulag is what pushed him to take over, and he explicitly says he shut down the gulags. Don’t get me wrong, he’s clearly a little darker than the comic, but nowhere near “evil” Supermen. He’s hurt by Diana’s breaking of their friendship, he doesn’t kill anyone who speaks up to him (even if what he does is no less ******* up), he doesn’t have concentration camps, and he still resists Brainiac urging him to invade the USA until the very end. He’s very much the anti-villain in the movie he is in the comic imo.

And to be honest the comic has a problem with Superman’s characterization in that you’re right he is explicitly the same guy as “normal” Superman at the start just on the Soviet side. However the comic never bothers to explain how that guy decided to start brainwashing people despite generally being a moral person at the start. The time jumps in the comic kind of dodge that development the same as they dodged the issue of the gulags. The movie doesn’t dodge it, this Supes is clearly traumatized by what he did to Stalin that he instead sticks to not executing people, rather using brainwashing since in his eyes that means he’s “better” than Stalin. Of course as Batman and then Lex point out, he’s really not that much better morally with regards to that issue.


There may be no blockbuster film with our boy anytime soon but he’s thankfully still getting some screen time lol.

I agree. I didn’t see this version of Red Son: Superman any more “evil” than the comic. Their motivations were the same. Both just wanted to help as many people as they could. Obviously, even with the power of Superman, communism would never work. Maybe it seems that he came off as more evil to some because the movie allows us to hear him speaking with a Russian accent and moving in a more militaristic way. The comic book version was no saint as he also brainwashed people.

2088D2D6-3D38-4CF0-AD11-88B27C189BEE.jpg

I really liked the more nuanced approach to the characters in this movie. Lex wasn’t just an evil genius and Batman was much more of an extremist and a psycho. I hated how the comic made Batman out to be the incorruptible rebel to Superman’s authoritarian dictator. Making him seem cooler than Superman in a story that’s supposed to be focusing on freaking Superman! Yeah he still gives Supes a beat down but he also comes off as very violent and someone who has a lot of misplaced hate.

I just loved how every character was neither all good or bad. Everyone was shades of grey. If you’re going to write a great story about geopolitical conflict and ideology, that’s how things should be.

[DochaDocha]

I agree. I didn’t see this version of Red Son: Superman any more “evil” than the comic. Their motivations were the same. Both just wanted to help as many people as they could. Obviously, even with the power of Superman, communism would never work. Maybe it seems that he came off as more evil to some because the movie allows us to hear him speaking with a Russian accent and moving in a more militaristic way. The comic book version was no saint as he also brainwashed people.

2088D2D6-3D38-4CF0-AD11-88B27C189BEE.jpg

I really liked the more nuanced approach to the characters in this movie. Lex wasn’t just an evil genius and Batman was much more of an extremist and a psycho. I hated how the comic made Batman out to be the incorruptible rebel to Superman’s authoritarian dictator. Making him seem cooler than Superman in a story that’s supposed to be focusing on freaking Superman! Yeah he still gives Supes a beat down but he also comes off as very violent and someone who has a lot of misplaced hate.

I just loved how every character was neither all good or bad. Everyone was shades of grey. If you’re going to write a great story about geopolitical conflict and ideology, that’s how things should be.

Which is why I didn't like the mustache-twirling Superman in Injustice (the video game, at least), and thought the Justice Lords concept was a bit lacking. They are so obviously bad, who had their "one bad day" and lost a lot of their heroic decency just to uphold some totalitarian vision (but not Batman, in either such story...). The movie succeeds in a lot of levels, but it does feel a bit oversimplified at times.

spoilers:

Like the part about the Bottled City of Stalingrad, why did they adapt it so that it was about Superman's desire for control instead of just being something he couldn't fix? It feels like reductionism into Evil Superman! is Bad, and one of the nearly-universal traits about Evil Superman! is the desire to control people. Anyway, some of the guys who made the movie also had their take on Totalitarian/Evil Superman, so I suspect that in creating this movie they might've aligned Red Son Supes with their prior vision of such a character.

end of spoilers

I admit I'm not an unbiased observer. I tended to look fondly on "Red Son" (though less so, these days, thanks to BvS and "Injustice"), and I've long been skeptical that the team who created this movie really know how to get the most out of Superman stories.

[Frontier]

Which is why I didn't like the mustache-twirling Superman in Injustice (the video game, at least), and thought the Justice Lords concept was a bit lacking. They are so obviously bad, who had their "one bad day" and lost a lot of their heroic decency just to uphold some totalitarian vision (but not Batman, in either such story...). The movie succeeds in a lot of levels, but it does feel a bit oversimplified at times.

spoilers:

Like the part about the Bottled City of Stalingrad, why did they adapt it so that it was about Superman's desire for control instead of just being something he couldn't fix? It feels like reductionism into Evil Superman! is Bad, and one of the nearly-universal traits about Evil Superman! is the desire to control people. Anyway, some of the guys who made the movie also had their take on Totalitarian/Evil Superman, so I suspect that in creating this movie they might've aligned Red Son Supes with their prior vision of such a character.

end of spoilers

I admit I'm not an unbiased observer. I tended to look fondly on "Red Son" (though less so, these days, thanks to BvS and "Injustice"), and I've long been skeptical that the team who created this movie really know how to get the most out of Superman stories.

I never really thought of Injustice Superman as a mustache-twirler. He was more mentally unstable in my opinion.

[Vordan]

Which is why I didn't like the mustache-twirling Superman in Injustice (the video game, at least), and thought the Justice Lords concept was a bit lacking. They are so obviously bad, who had their "one bad day" and lost a lot of their heroic decency just to uphold some totalitarian vision (but not Batman, in either such story...). The movie succeeds in a lot of levels, but it does feel a bit oversimplified at times.

spoilers:

Like the part about the Bottled City of Stalingrad, why did they adapt it so that it was about Superman's desire for control instead of just being something he couldn't fix? It feels like reductionism into Evil Superman! is Bad, and one of the nearly-universal traits about Evil Superman! is the desire to control people. Anyway, some of the guys who made the movie also had their take on Totalitarian/Evil Superman, so I suspect that in creating this movie they might've aligned Red Son Supes with their prior vision of such a character.

end of spoilers

I admit I'm not an unbiased observer. I tended to look fondly on "Red Son" (though less so, these days, thanks to BvS and "Injustice"), and I've long been skeptical that the team who created this movie really know how to get the most out of Superman stories.

To be fair though, the comic also ends with Superman realizing he’s no better than Brainiac. So Superman attempting to exercise control over everything is very much his main flaw in the comic as well. The difference between the movie and the comic I’d say is that comic Superman is more naive than movie Superman. He doesn’t realize that Diana is in love with him for example, or that he’s unconsciously seeking to emulate Brainiac until Luthor literally spells it out for him. Movie Superman understands what he’s doing, but he deluded himself into thinking he was better than Stalin because he shut down the Gulags.

In the end though what separates Red Son Superman from your typical Evil Superman is
1. He’s still able to be saved because he thinks his actions are morally justified. Justice Lord Superman explicitly doesn’t care about being a hero anymore. Injustice Superman is insane and can’t be reached. Red Son Superman is simply delusional and once his delusions are stripped away and he’s forced to see that what he’s doing is wrong, he finally backs down

2. Unlike Justice Lord or Injustice Supermen, Red Son Superman doesn’t get a hard-on for killing everything in his way after he kills for the first time. He still retains enough of his moral core to avoid killing when necessary but he goes for the equally morally messed up option of brainwashing. He’s traumatized by killing Stalin unlike Justice Lord Superman who coldly smirks and tells Diana he feels great after killing Lex, or Injustice Superman who goes and throws a temper tantrum at Batman blaming him for everything. Red Son Superman owns what he did and owns that what he did was wrong, but that he felt it was necessary. Red Son Superman is still an idealist at heart and that’s what separates him.

Honestly maybe I’m just happy that they didn’t make Batman into the noble heroic rebel again so I’m willing to excuse a lot of the movies shortcomings. But I felt that however imperfect the movie might be, they did manage to get the core right and that’s enough for me. Man it feels good to talk about a Superman product I’m actually overall happy about lol.