Superman: Red Son and Superman: Man of Tomorrow Animated Feature Films

[OpaqueGiraffe17]

I think their buddy dynamic generally brings out the best in them, but that's for more true incarnations of the characters. In darker elseworlds like these, it doesn't but to play devil's advocate its not really supposed to. Red Son has always been a more nuanced take as just opposed to "evil heroes", but they still end up leaning toward a slightly darker flavor nonetheless, and in that regard it can bring about an unpleasant dynamic. Insisting on a misandrist slant didn't help either.

They tend to flanderize Diana whenever Superman is in the room. Make her more aggressive than she’d ever be on her own or more detached from humanity than she’s written when he’s not in the room. While Clark generally stays himself. Frankly they’re just a crappy duo in general, imo.

[Sacred Knight]

I think flanderizing her in more recent years has been more of a shared-verse thing as opposed to just a Superman thing (meaning her being shown as overly aggressive I find more often a thing when they want to contrast her with pretty much any other major hero; Batman, Hal, etc). I don't think its historically been a hallmark of their usual teamups though. But to each their own.

[Jim Kelly]

I saw Red Son and it was alright. Goddamn Wonder Woman was annoying in this. They need to stop buddying her up with Superman, just brings out the worst versions of the character.

Having now read RED SON the comic book, I much prefer Diana in the animated version--I liked that she was in the middle politically and ultimately the Princess of Peace and that they highlighted her sexuality. I also preferred Lana in the animated version to the Lana in the comic. Although, the trope of no sooner does Superman discover her then it all goes to hell was something that wore on me--it's very convenient that some new plot turn always unfolds and resolves in a single scene.

In terms of art--I rather liked some of the art by Dave Johnson, Andrew Robinson, Killian Plunkett and Walden Wong, which at times suggests Howard Chaykin (as in his Blackhawk and the Shadow comics)--although the mix of styles doesn't sustain that look. The animation was simplistic by contrast, but some of the dumb stuff like Batman's hat comes directly from the comic. I could never take Bat-Hat seriously. And the visuals in the cartoon for Lana, Diana and Bizarro were an improvement.

Also, Plunkett and Wong (I think it's them) seem to enjoy making older people look grotesque, a la Howie Chaykin's work on the Shadow--what they did to Marilyn Monroe I can never forgive--likewise Lois and Lucy don't fare much better. However, the Mark Millar story read like a parody to me (the same way I feel about Frank Miller's Dark Knight), so the extreme caricatures suit that tone. I always felt like Millar was taking the piss--and therefore none of the story should be read seriously. The animated movie by contrast seems overly earnest, even when delivering the most asinine scenes.

I could never quite figure out how time works in either version. I guess that Lex found a way to slow down his age and those around him--yet some characters seem to age more than others. Grace Randolph championed Jimmy being African-American--yet I think Jimmy works better as a screw-up and a dweeb. When they reinvent Jimmy as a black man, they don't retain that aspect of his character. Instead of a schmuck, he's a mensch. Black, brown, red or white--Jimmy should always be a neurotic. Pete Ross would better fit the role they gave Jimmy in the animated version.

It's bloody ironic that Jason Isaacs is in both THE DEATH OF STALIN and RED SON. I couldn't help but think of the former when watching the latter. I wish that the cartoon had that tone and Isaacs wasn't forced to use some ridiculous European accent--the natural accents of the characters in DEATH OF STALIN add to the comedy. Doing fake accents would just get in the way. I wanted to feel that Stalin is really a bad guy, but his accent made him seem like someone's jolly uncle. The comic is better on that end, because you can read the lines with whatever accent and intonation you want.

I don't understand why Millar used the first person narration captions. That kills some of the suspense--because we know that Superman is speaking from a place in the future after these events have transpired, so we know he survives (unless he's William Holden in SUNSET BOULEVARD). I felt that the story lacked a certain immediacy, given it was all framed in the past. Maybe Millar was so focused on his ending, driving toward that twist at the end, that he undermined the narrative in getting there,. It's odd that the animated movie dropped the coda at the end. Or maybe they thought that the coda really didn't amount to much. With or without, I feel like the RED SON's best bit is what we didn't get to see--Kal-El arriving on Earth and growing up in the Soviet Union and how all those early experiences informed and explained his later behaviour. Even "Superman 2001" in a few pages did a better job showing a young Kal-El being raised by the U.S. military.

I look at RED SON as an idea factory--there's some intriguing concepts in both versions and if those were better developed they could yield a satisfying narrative. So even though I didn't like RED SON as a cartoon or a comic, I'm interested to see someone try to adapt it in live action. I feel like the creative decisions they would make for a movie or TV series could extract the best ideas, polish them up and deliver a better overall experience.

[Robanker]

Jason Isaac was great and I liked the overall look of the movie quite a bit. I can't stress that enough. Visually, Superman looks great in this. I wish that was the model they used for him in all of these instead of the Young Justice or New 52 models.

But I gotta say, I don't think Bruce Timm gets Diana. Strawman misandry will never make any sense for Wonder Woman.

I do think, however, they got a misguided Superman more or less correct. Injustice this wasn't.

[Frontier]

Jason Isaac was great and I liked the overall look of the movie quite a bit. I can't stress that enough. Visually, Superman looks great in this. I wish that was the model they used for him in all of these instead of the Young Justice or New 52 models.

But I gotta say, I don't think Bruce Timm gets Diana. Strawman misandry will never make any sense for Wonder Woman.

I do think, however, they got a misguided Superman more or less correct. Injustice this wasn't.

It's the kind of thing I could've seen Mark Millar doing...but ironically he didn't, which makes its presence in the movie even more jarring.

[Robanker]

It's the kind of thing I could've seen Mark Millar doing...but ironically he didn't, which makes its presence in the movie even more jarring.

It just reads of old guys trying to equate feminism with misandry, as if the only way a woman would even want to elevate herself is because she hates men. I'm more than a little sick of presenting the voice of feminism as spiteful, especially when they need to twist Diana around to do it. It kept cropping up and taking me out of the movie with how ugly it felt. Between this and Injustice, I'm alright for a stipulation preventing Diana from appearing in elseworlds if she's going to be mangled. Better she sit out at this point. They get her even less than Superman, and he's firmly in the "I'm here to die or become evil" camp these days. If she's not ready to goosestep and oppress, she's a bigot. What a mess. :/

[DochaDocha]

Writing Superman and Wonder Woman as close friends isn't the problem. Guys like Greg Rucka didn't have that problem. The real issue is that there's a bunch of writers who can't write personal dialogue between the two of them for s**t, and Bruce Timm is like the valedictorian of screwing that up.

[Robanker]

Writing Superman and Wonder Woman as close friends isn't the problem. Guys like Greg Rucka didn't have that problem. The real issue is that there's a bunch of writers who can't write personal dialogue between the two of them for s**t, and Bruce Timm is like the valedictorian of screwing that up.

I'd argue they should always be friends, but yeah, Timm and Co have never had a great handle of her voice. A lot of the big guys that work for DC in several facets don't seem to.

[DochaDocha]

https://www.ign.com/videos/justice-l...lusive-trailer

Trailer for Apokolips War is out, it looks kinda nuts.

This is probably the most I ever was concerned about a movie's run-time. I thought All-Star Superman was a pretty condensed version of the story, so for a while I thought long stories crammed into 75-minute films would be okay (answer: yes and no), but now that they have nothing to work on but their own continuity? I hope this thing doesn't feel so rushed.

[Adekis]

A loose adaption of American Alien would be cool, but I think Man of Tomorrow is going to be about Supes already a year or so into his career as Superman. I’m hoping for a loose adaption of Morrison’s Action arc with Brainiac and Metallo myself but we’ll see. At least they’re finally making the aesthetic of Metropolis something other than “boring NYC knockoff”.

That's what I'm really hoping for, too, the Morrison thing. It's hard not to be nervous about a Jon Superman movie though, when you dislike the idea as much as I do...

[stargazer01]

Yeah it won’t be Jon, it will be Clark. These movies barely sell enough to cover the cost of making them, they won’t be taking that kind of risk with them. Also Dispenser, apparently Bleeding Cool is claiming that DC is already starting to back off from 5G. They’re ditching the hard dates for certain and they might end up binning the whole idea in the end.

A loose adaption of American Alien would be cool, but I think Man of Tomorrow is going to be about Supes already a year or so into his career as Superman. I’m hoping for a loose adaption of Morrison’s Action arc with Brainiac and Metallo myself but we’ll see. At least they’re finally making the aesthetic of Metropolis something other than “boring NYC knockoff”.

This, I want a real Superman movie.. I'm not ready for a Son of Superman movie, it's too soon. They need to properly introduce Jon as a kid first to make people care about him.. geez... This is not a comic book, these films reach a wider audience. Sure not as big as big screen movies but still I think many casual Superman fans watch them.

[dietrich]

I really enjoyed this [aside from the ending. not sure how I feel bout the route they went]. Some changes to the source but all in all still one of the more faithful adaptations.

[DochaDocha]

If they start making movies about Jon, I'll be disappointed, but I'll be even more disappointed if they make Jon as annoying as the movie portrayals of Damien. Yikes...

[DochaDocha]

Finally got around to watching the Sneak Peek for Apokolips War. So, co-director Matt Peters has a bit of dialogue in which he says,

spoilers:

"Seeing Superman who's actually a character we're used to being this noble and defensive kind of character suddenly become more aggressive to press an agenda, which is not something we're used to seeing." I feel like we're on a carousel. Someone pitches a story that starts like this, and then as a result we get yet another such story and the guys pitching the story feel like they're telling an original tale. And repeat. I get it, Peters wasn't involved in Red Son or Injustice or Gods Among Us or the Justice League cartoon, whatever, and therefore he isn't responsible for those projects. But it seems to have become a routine: guy sells us a take on Superman that he says we're not used to seeing, but in this particular case it describes the movie we just watched (Red Son), along with other popular stories. Writers have a blind spot toward other Superman stories out there, so they think the blandest, stereotypical Superman story is the only one we've seen. Also, I have to chuckle at Matt Ryan's line, "I've never seen so many superheroes in one movie, ever." Was this filmed before Endgame? Because now that Ryan says this, I feel like I need to see like 75 heroes at some point.

end of spoilers

Nitpicks aside, I think it has potential.

[stargazer01]

Finally got around to watching the Sneak Peek for Apokolips War. So, co-director Matt Peters has a bit of dialogue in which he says,

spoilers:

"Seeing Superman who's actually a character we're used to being this noble and defensive kind of character suddenly become more aggressive to press an agenda, which is not something we're used to seeing." I feel like we're on a carousel. Someone pitches a story that starts like this, and then as a result we get yet another such story and the guys pitching the story feel like they're telling an original tale. And repeat. I get it, Peters wasn't involved in Red Son or Injustice or Gods Among Us or the Justice League cartoon, whatever, and therefore he isn't responsible for those projects. But it seems to have become a routine: guy sells us a take on Superman that he says we're not used to seeing, but in this particular case it describes the movie we just watched (Red Son), along with other popular stories. Writers have a blind spot toward other Superman stories out there, so they think the blandest, stereotypical Superman story is the only one we've seen. Also, I have to chuckle at Matt Ryan's line, "I've never seen so many superheroes in one movie, ever." Was this filmed before Endgame? Because now that Ryan says this, I feel like I need to see like 75 heroes at some point.

end of spoilers

Nitpicks aside, I think it has potential.

Saw this tweet today:

https://twitter.com/MairghreadScott/...49616206811141


"I co-wrote an epic action movie with all your favorite superheroes. I promise it will blow your mind.

Introducing Justice League Dark: Apokolips War."