Superman: Red Son and Superman: Man of Tomorrow Animated Feature Films

[Superlad93]

That's an interesting element I didn't think of. I probably would've known that about him from a first glance either.

I was thinking more that this isn't the first time he's played a hero known for wearnig glasses (Harry frikkin' Potter), or played a DC character (Music Meister) or a brightly colored larger-then-life character (Sideswipe).

I just imagine him on the set of Supergirl and thinking to himself this is probably the closest he'd ever get to something this big and now he's actually playing Superman .

I hope he does bring his heritage up! I really loved how Yang connected his parents to Clark’s actions as Superman. And damn now I want him to voice Superman in an animated adaption of “Superman Smashes the Klan”, he’s be perfect for that!

You know the craziest part? The guy's a dead ringer a 20 something Clark Kent.

That's a pretty Clark Kent ass lookin dude if I've ever seen one. It's almost kinda freaky.

Yeah - but for some reason a lot of people are guessing it will for some reason, and I can't figure out why...

You can't really blame anyone, can you? Apokolips War ends with the very clear indication that there will be a reset, and then the very next film after that we're getting a Superman origin story that's featuring two direct mentions to two heroes from the DCU. That's exactly how they went from Flashpoint Paradox to Justice League War. There was no between film. Again, how can you blame anyone?

And to add to that, our Superman is wearing a classic suit with details (pointed ringed cuffs) that resemble his current suit in the comics similar to how the now old animated universe, in their own way, reflected what the current suit for the comics were.

But ultimately we don't know either way, and may continue to not even after the film comes out.

[Frontier]

You know the craziest part? The guy's a dead ringer a 20 something Clark Kent.

That's a pretty Clark Kent ass lookin dude if I've ever seen one. It's almost kinda freaky.

I'm getting Matt Bomer vibes.

[Vakanai]

Some people want it of course, especially since DC’s Films are moving away from a connected universe. So there is some element of “I want there to be a shared universe so I’m going to hope that’s what these are setting up”. Some of it is that I can see how these could lead to a connected universe, both are early days stories about DC’s two big guns. But there’s nothing confirming or denying one way or the other so it’s mostly just harmless speculation.

Ah, I think that explains it - there's less actual speculation going on and more wishing. Personally I did not like the shared universe and felt an immense relief to learn it was gone - maybe we'll finally get a better quality of films now! The connected stuff was largely the weakest, outside Death of Superman. Since I'm not emotionally invested in the whole shared universe concept for these films, I've mostly being trying to take a more logical, educated, conservative approach to guessing on these films. So I just haven't clicked to the fact some people just want a shared universe and thus are using speculation to voice their hopes more than anything else.

Yes, if you are wanting a shared universe and are looking for how it could be done again, the upcoming films being origin or near-origin films are a great way of doing it. But that's trying to make the evidence fit your wish, making your desire inform how you perceive the facts - instead of letting the facts inform your opinion.

So from a "I want it to be true" wish, you can argue these films will stealth in a new universe. But from a "based solely on what is known" guess, them immediately kick starting a new continuity just after finishing the old one, and not saying so when the next film is mere months away, and including adaptations most people would prefer they do as standalones (Long Halloween) after previous in continuity adaptations have been less well received (Hush), all points to probably not.

[Frontier]

Ah, I think that explains it - there's less actual speculation going on and more wishing. Personally I did not like the shared universe and felt an immense relief to learn it was gone - maybe we'll finally get a better quality of films now! The connected stuff was largely the weakest, outside Death of Superman. Since I'm not emotionally invested in the whole shared universe concept for these films, I've mostly being trying to take a more logical, educated, conservative approach to guessing on these films. So I just haven't clicked to the fact some people just want a shared universe and thus are using speculation to voice their hopes more than anything else.

Yes, if you are wanting a shared universe and are looking for how it could be done again, the upcoming films being origin or near-origin films are a great way of doing it. But that's trying to make the evidence fit your wish, making your desire inform how you perceive the facts - instead of letting the facts inform your opinion.

So from a "I want it to be true" wish, you can argue these films will stealth in a new universe. But from a "based solely on what is known" guess, them immediately kick starting a new continuity just after finishing the old one, and not saying so when the next film is mere months away, and including adaptations most people would prefer they do as standalones (Long Halloween) after previous in continuity adaptations have been less well received (Hush), all points to probably not.

I'm not really "wishing" for it. I think it's fair cautious speculation from what we know and how they seem to be approaching this without having much of an idea where the line is going right now. I don't think continuity really impacted the films quality on a case-by-case basis and that should be more true now if it's going to be less overt (emphasis on the if).

I don't think it's an unfair second opinion to have based on what we've seen so far or that it's immediately "illogical." Until we hear more concrete information from the people actually making the films I don't think it's something that can be completely ruled out.

I don't think DC or the producers have commented one way or another on what's to come after this film for the line so we'd have to wait and see on that. The in-continuity films did release some well-received adaptions so I doubt that's a factor either, especially when Long Halloween will probably come off as a standalone one way or another. Hush's problems didn't really revolve around it's continuity status anyways.

[Vakanai]

For me there's an ambiguity and a possibility of it, which is why it's something I'm focusing on as a point of interest...especially with the inclusion of Batman and Martian Manhunter in a standalone Superman movie.

I don't think there is ambiguity though - much like how they announced the end of the universe, they'll probably announce the first film set in a new continuity as such. And I don't think including Batman and MM leads to much either - a lot of standalones include multiple heroes.

I don't think that's enough to really grasp a firm direction for the line until we see how they're approaching Long Halloween. Even your theory on the direction isn't too far off from what I'm theorizing if some of those standalones end up continuing together into some form of continuity moving forward.

While I agree we know too little to properly analyze what the direction for the line will be, I feel pretty confident that not announcing it's a shared universe until after several origin films set in a shared universe have been set up is not how WB is going to handle this. Standalones ending up continuing together and creating a new continuity is an interesting idea, but sounds more like a fan conspiracy than an actual business plan. When the new universe happens, it will be announced. I don't think Man of Tomorrow or Long Halloween will be setting up the new continuity, they're just the standalones between continuity pictures.

I think we need to wait to see more of the promotion for Man of Tomorrow and an announcement of the 2021 slate before we start getting an idea of what the new phase of the DC Animated Films really is.

I agree we need to see the 2021 slate before getting an idea of the new phase, but I think we don't need to wait for more promotion for Man of Tomorrow.

I'm not, I've just seen where they've echoed restraint in the past so that makes it all the more noticeable that they didn't do so here.

...when did they echo restraint?

You can't really blame anyone, can you? Apokolips War ends with the very clear indication that there will be a reset, and then the very next film after that we're getting a Superman origin story that's featuring two direct mentions to two heroes from the DCU. That's exactly how they went from Flashpoint Paradox to Justice League War. There was no between film. Again, how can you blame anyone?

There was also a tease of parademons, we knew the next film would be bases on the JL origin, and they announced it as a whole new universe. They didn't leave out that this was a new continuity for us to figure out later. I haven't seen the sneak peek of the new film yet, but I'd it doesn't say this is the reboot there, then it probably isn't.

And I wouldn't hold other heroes being in this as an indicator - there were other heroes in the book this is largely based on.

And to add to that, our Superman is wearing a classic suit with details (pointed ringed cuffs) that resemble his current suit in the comics similar to how the now old animated universe, in their own way, reflected what the current suit for the comics were.

So did some of the standalone films. So did/does Young Justice. It's been a while since I've read American Alien, but didn't it largely have a generic red trunks costume at the end?

But ultimately we don't know either way, and may continue to not even after the film comes out.

Disagree - we will 100% know whether the film is a reboot or not after it comes out. I don't think it will be the reboot, but if I'm wrong we'll know after we watch it.

[Superlad93]

I'm not really "wishing" for it. I think it's fair cautious speculation from what we know and how they seem to be approaching this without having much of an idea where the line is going right now.

Same. I'm not really "wishing" for much of anything in terms of this being a shared universe.

It's just a pretty fair assumption to think that Man of Tomorrow kicks off another shared universe when, similar to Justice League War, it comes directly after the big reboot story. I feel like just about any rational person would go "oh, so this is the new universe huh?" And I have to imagine DC/WB have to know that's the case. So, I don't understand why everyone who's thinking it's a possibility has to be under *just* the umbrella of "wishful thinking"?

[Vakanai]

I'm not really "wishing" for it. I think it's fair cautious speculation from what we know and how they seem to be approaching this without having much of an idea where the line is going right now. I don't think continuity really impacted the films quality on a case-by-case basis and that should be more true now if it's going to be less overt (emphasis on the if).

I don't think it's an unfair second opinion to have based on what we've seen so far or that it's immediately "illogical." Until we hear more concrete information from the people actually making the films I don't think it's something that can be completely ruled out.

I don't think DC or the producers have commented one way or another on what's to come after this film for the line so we'd have to wait and see on that. The in-continuity films did release some well-received adaptions so I doubt that's a factor either, especially when Long Halloween will probably come off as a standalone one way or another. Hush's problems didn't really revolve around it's continuity status anyways.

I would argue the cautious speculation would be more "not a reboot until they say it is." We don't know "how" they seem to be approaching this unless I'm missing something (I haven't seen the last movie yet)? And I don't particularly care whether continuity impacted the last films (I think it did impact, and largely negative, but to each their own) since it doesn't tell us when the new continuity will start up.

I kinda both agree and disagree on the "until we get concrete information" part. We definitely can't know what will be without info - but Man of Tomorrow is coming out soon enough that we'd either have heard it's the reboot by now or will soon. If they've not said anything concrete about it being in continuity even after it's come out, then it's safe to say it isn't. It won't be a surprise on us later on. No "Surprise! That movie you watched last year was the start of the new universe!"

I agree on Hush mostly being rotten for non-continuity reasons, but all the same I hope they don't try and force this classic to fit some new style or continuity. I just want it as a straight adaptation as faithful as can be, that's all I want. What they did with The Dark Knight Returns and Year One is what I fervently, desperately want for The Long Halloween. Add no extra touches to make it fit a continuity, just put the comic to screen. What I read is what I want to watch. It is my favorite Batman book, possibly my favorite DC book. I'm afraid they'll screw it up, and after most of the in continuity films not being really good in my opinion, making it a shared universe film will worry me more. I can't stress how much I want this adaptation to go back to the Year One Dark Knight Returns glory days of DC animation.

But like with Man of Tomorrow, if they don't announce it as the new continuity by the time it comes out, then it isn't.

[Superlad93]

There was also a tease of parademons, we knew the next film would be bases on the JL origin, and they announced it as a whole new universe. They didn't leave out that this was a new continuity for us to figure out later. I haven't seen the sneak peek of the new film yet, but I'd it doesn't say this is the reboot there, then it probably isn't.

I'm super aware of this, but the timing and subject of the film can't really be ignored when put into greater context. You end a universe in one film, and then do a new modern origin for Superman in the very next. Even without anyone directly stating it, it's very, very hard for someone to not take this as the start of a new universe.

didn't it largely have a generic red trunks costume at the end?

Only in the loosest sense. It was an armor plated version that had story and character relevance. And the exclusion of it, but the inclusion of a largely similar proto suit seems odd especially if this is supposed to just live outside of the context of any further continuity.

And if we're just talking about looks, then it should be mentioned that Clark as Superman doesn't really scream young 20 something. You'd assume that they'd go for a more youthful hair style to underscore the idea (given the fact that the book does just that), but he's largely classic and pretty safe. If it were a one-off take then what would the harm have been?

Disagree

Then I guess I disagree with your disagreeing.

[Vakanai]

Same. I'm not really "wishing" for much of anything in terms of this being a shared universe.

It's just a pretty fair assumption to think that Man of Tomorrow kicks off another shared universe when, similar to Justice League War, it comes directly after the big reboot story. I feel like just about any rational person would go "oh, so this is the new universe huh?" And I have to imagine DC/WB have to know that's the case. So, I don't understand why everyone who's thinking it's a possibility has to be under *just* the umbrella of "wishful thinking"?

Again, we knew going into War it was the new continuity because they told us so. The longer they don't say that here, the less reason there is to naturally assume it. They know announcing a reboot is liable to boost sales, so they won't keep it to themselves. If it wasn't mentioned in the sneak peek, then it probably isn't.

[Superlad93]

They know announcing a reboot is liable to boost sales, so they won't keep it to themselves.

Oh they wanna play it by ear, but keep the contradictions as low as possible as a way of reserving the right to show it as a secret shared universe. So for now, the big guns are relegated to Easter eggs. One of the most hype shared universe reveals was the movie Split being a continuation of Unbreakable. You go the whole movie without even thinking about this random movie from the early 2000s, and then, bam, hype for the third film.

Seems possible that they'd do something similar over a longer stretch of time. It also works as a proving ground to see if they can do something similar with their fractured live action universe down the line.

[Vakanai]

I'm super aware of this, but the timing and subject of the film can't really be ignored when put into greater context. You end a universe in one film, and then do a new modern origin for Superman in the very next. Even without anyone directly stating it, it's very, very hard for someone to not take this as the start of a new universe.

You can totally ignore this in the greater context because there isn't a greater context. The last shared universe didn't start with a Superman origin, it started with a JL origin. They announced well before the film came out that War was the start of a new thing. They aren't announcing that here, despite the fact that doing so might boost sales (which let's be honest, that's the real greater context here, not last movie ends universe new movie Superman origin). None of the previous solo superhero origin films started a shared universe.

Again, I just can't imagine them rebooting the film universe in a film without announcing that the film will do that. It doesn't matter that it's the first film since the last universe ended, or that it's an origin film (and why do we assume reboots always start with an origin? How many times in the comics do the new origin stories come a while after the reboot happened?). WB always advertises reboots. They're always big events. Comics, films, they won't hold back in announcing a reboot as such.

Only in the loosest sense. It was an armor plated version that had story and character relevance. And the exclusion of it, but the inclusion of a largely similar proto suit seems odd especially if this is supposed to just live outside of the context of any further continuity.

I'll have to reread the book I guess - but I think you're seriously underestimating how much these differences can be explained by "trying to adapt the Landis story without technically adapting the Landis story". Seriously, you can't dismiss that possibility. The proto-suit is very,similar to the one in American Alien - but it is still different! If you change it just enough so it isn't the one from that book, you can try and get around the whole Landis thing. If Landis wasn't a mud stain, the adaptation would be more faithful and the costume would be more spot on.

And if we're just talking about looks, then it should be mentioned that Clark as Superman doesn't really scream young 20 something. You'd assume that they'd go for a more youthful hair style to underscore the idea (given the fact that the book does just that), but he's largely classic and pretty safe. If it were a one-off take then what would the harm have been?

Again - mix of not wanting to do Landis while totally ripping Landis, and possibly the character designer not being hip on young peoples' hair styles.

Then I guess I disagree with your disagreeing.

Feel free. But thinking they won't announce a movie was a reboot until long after it has happened is just...not a thing.

[Vakanai]

Oh they wanna play it by ear, but keep the contradictions as low as possible as a way of reserving the right to show it as a secret shared universe. So for now, the big guns are relegated to Easter eggs. One of the most hype shared universe reveals was the movie Split being a continuation of Unbreakable. You go the whole movie without even thinking about this random movie from the early 2000s, and then, bam, hype for the third film.

Seems possible that they'd do something similar over a longer stretch of time. It also works as a proving ground to see if they can do something similar with their fractured live action universe down the line.

How do you know what DC/WB wants to do? Why would they leave money on the table for a secret universe? Announcing it draws more money. Split was more director driven, DC animation is much more corporate. Never mind live action films are a different breed than these animated DTVs.

[Vakanai]

Oh Lord, the speculation that Man of Tomorrow was a secret reboot to the animated universe could carry one for a whole year, even two. Secret reboots is a new speculation trend I don't like. Because unlike other ideas, having the film itself there on the screen want stop the idea...

[Superlad93]

You can totally ignore this in the greater context because there isn't a greater context.

The greater context is animated movies coming out from DC that people not on forums watch.

None of the previous solo superhero origin films started a shared universe.

Is there a particular reason why this can't?

Seriously, you can't dismiss that possibility.

I'm not. I never have. I'm entertaining the possibly of something else while acknowledging it. You're the only one really outright dismissing anything here, if we're throwing the D word around.

possibly the character designer not being hip on young peoples' hair styles.

That seems unlikely given the fact that the director is fairly young, and worked on young adult targeted Voltron: Legendary Defender, and that's likely why he got the job to begin with.

Feel free. But thinking they won't announce a movie was a reboot until long after it has happened is just...not a thing.

Like I said, we'll see. And is there really any need to condescend with a "sure bro, think what you want, but just know you're super wrong" here as a punctuation to the matter? We have a difference in opinions, but petty is petty.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I dunno he’s been keeping a low profile since the accusations, or at least I haven’t heard anything about what he’s up to.

It's possible he's been talking this time to "work on himself" and will resurface when the movie gets released to see if Hollywood's goldfish memory for monstrous behavior is intact.

I genuinely hope he used his exile as an opportunity to become a better man, but I think that's highly unlikely given his long, long history of being an awful human being.