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  1. #46
    Ultimate Member j9ac9k's Avatar
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    And the Ten Rings immediately imply an international aspect to the adventure since they've been shown to be a global network.

  2. #47
    Spectacular Member PoorStudent's Avatar
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    I hope they get someone like Gareth Evans or Woo Ping to do the fights. We haven't had a good martial arts flick (In the US) in years.

  3. #48
    Legend HowitzerJoe's Avatar
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    Listening to the Mandarin will be very interesting. I wonder how much scrutiny the mainland community will have for it. I haven't heard Tony Leung's Mandarin. He's Cantonese, but I'm sure he speaks it well right? Simon Liu grew up in Canada right? Awkwafina is from Queens, NY. If I remember correctly, Shang Chi's mother is half white though. Since there won't be any Fu Manchu, there is a lot of freedom to change his origins. Will The Mandarin even be a relative of Shang Chi? Very interesting times ahead.

  4. #49
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    So, why is it now okay to use The Blatantly Racist Mandarin?

  5. #50
    The Celestial Dragon Tien Long's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    So, why is it now okay to use The Blatantly Racist Mandarin?
    I think that there is this sense of "taking ownership" and "doing it right" in the Shang-Chi film. Yes, The Mandarin, Fu Manchu, hell even Shang-Chi, are all tropes and caricatures of East Asians. They are "Orientalist" this and "yellow peril" that. HOWEVER, there are elements within this characters that are still pretty cool and noteworthy (or at the very least, there is potential). In the past, the Mandarin and Zheng Zu have been portrayed as being either buck-toothed or Orientalist. They also have been portrayed as being cool, calculating, cunning, and intelligent. Shang-Chi may have been portrayed as being stoic and sometimes spouting little "fortune cookie" wisdom here and there. At the same time, he has been portrayed as being romantic, affectionate, confident, and respected. In the comics, in past couple of years, there have been attempts to distance these characters from their dated ideals. Additionally, in the movies, the Mandarin and the Ten Rings has been furtively, yet cleverly established as a strong organization in the MCU. So, there have been steps in the right direction.

    Factor in that the principal people behind this film are Asians and Asian-Americans. They're either award-winners or individuals who want to better the portrayal of Asians. These are individuals who can realize the potential of these characters. Indeed, in the link you provided Jeff Yang stated that if the actor can bring authenticity, complexity, and three-dimentionality to the Mandarin, than he would be all for it. And that's what a lot of people are banking on. That's why it's okay to use the Mandarin in this film.
    "I am a man of peace."

    "A man of peace...who fights like ten tigers."

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tien Long View Post
    I think that there is this sense of "taking ownership" and "doing it right" in the Shang-Chi film. Yes, The Mandarin, Fu Manchu, hell even Shang-Chi, are all tropes and caricatures of East Asians. They are "Orientalist" this and "yellow peril" that. HOWEVER, there are elements within this characters that are still pretty cool and noteworthy (or at the very least, there is potential). In the past, the Mandarin and Zheng Zu have been portrayed as being either buck-toothed or Orientalist. They also have been portrayed as being cool, calculating, cunning, and intelligent. Shang-Chi may have been portrayed as being stoic and sometimes spouting little "fortune cookie" wisdom here and there. At the same time, he has been portrayed as being romantic, affectionate, confident, and respected. In the comics, in past couple of years, there have been attempts to distance these characters from their dated ideals. Additionally, in the movies, the Mandarin and the Ten Rings has been furtively, yet cleverly established as a strong organization in the MCU. So, there have been steps in the right direction.

    Factor in that the principal people behind this film are Asians and Asian-Americans. They're either award-winners or individuals who want to better the portrayal of Asians. These are individuals who can realize the potential of these characters. Indeed, in the link you provided Jeff Yang stated that if the actor can bring authenticity, complexity, and three-dimentionality to the Mandarin, than he would be all for it. And that's what a lot of people are banking on. That's why it's okay to use the Mandarin in this film.
    So, as long as his protagonist and writers are East Asian, it's cool to make a powermad villain of him. If his adversary and writers are Western, it's racist.

    Seriously, this isn't meant to troll. It's just that The Mandarin was treated as a radioactive property by many of these threads, until the East v. West elements were removed. At which point he becomes fabulous (even tho he's still a Fu Manchu stand-in).

    A character that wants to dominate all humanity shouldn't be off limits because they come from an exploited culture or ethnicity. IMO, that not only gives the villain complexity, it opens room for discussion about oppression, colonialism, and the consequences that follow.

  7. #52
    The Celestial Dragon Tien Long's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    So, as long as his protagonist and writers are East Asian, it's cool to make a powermad villain of him. If his adversary and writers are Western, it's racist.

    Seriously, this isn't meant to troll. It's just that The Mandarin was treated as a radioactive property by many of these threads, until the East v. West elements were removed. At which point he becomes fabulous (even tho he's still a Fu Manchu stand-in).

    A character that wants to dominate all humanity shouldn't be off limits because they come from an exploited culture or ethnicity. IMO, that not only gives the villain complexity, it opens room for discussion about oppression, colonialism, and the consequences that follow.
    I can see your point. Indeed, if you've read any of my posts at the Shang-Chi or Iron Fist threads, I've stated that characters like Fu Manchu have a lot of potential. If people could look beyond the Orientalist trappings, there was a very cool character. In the comics, Fu Manchu was very smart and devious, all of the makings of a terrific villain. In the same way, I, as a Chinese-American, haven't been very offended by the Mandarin. I've only come to appreciate these characters more in recent years when writers, who have been caucasian, have tried to modernize and remove these aspects of Orientalism and yellow perilism. When the villain for Shang-Chi was in flux, I adamantly believed that the villain should be a) Shang-Chi's father and b) a villain of Chinese descent. It would have added complexity.

    So, when ANY writer goes and adds complexity to these characters, that's something that should be praised. (Indeed, as Jeff Yang mentioned, the Mandarin could be used, as long as he had complexity. I believe implicit in that is that any writer could do something like that). It disheartens me that a lot of individuals (Asians, Asian-Americans, and otherwise) didn't see it that way. I wish more individuals could. (I wish that for all the other things that come loaded when we have discussions like this, i.e. Danny Rand being white or the Ancient One being caucasian in the Dr. Strange movie). It disheartens me when people automatically feel that if a white hero were to fight an Asian villain, that would be seen as racist.

    Still, I can't deny that others have felt differently. Yes, having Asians at the helm of the creative process makes a difference. There are certain intricacies of Asian culture that have very, VERY unique flavors (Shang-Chi defying his father, being a failure to parental expectations, that's something that a lot of Asians know deeply about. Other cultures have that too, but there's a special Asian quality to that's hard to describe). No, there isn't anything inherently wrong when a white hero fights an Asian villain. But it's been done over and over for many a long time now. Thus, Having Asians in charge of an Asian character who for the longest time was helmed by non-Asians, that means much. Having an Asian hero fight an Asian villain, that means much. These things take away the sting. Now, I personally don't fully agree with it. (Gail Simone can write tough action stuff with male protagonists. Christopher Priest writes a mean Deathstroke. Jim Lee draws a fantastic Batman. None are the same race and/or gender of the characters they produce).

    But I still see it. And maybe a film like this can lead to a day where people don't care who writes whom, plays whom, or produces whom, just as long as its a great whom.
    "I am a man of peace."

    "A man of peace...who fights like ten tigers."

  8. #53
    Legend HowitzerJoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    So, as long as his protagonist and writers are East Asian, it's cool to make a powermad villain of him. If his adversary and writers are Western, it's racist.

    Seriously, this isn't meant to troll. It's just that The Mandarin was treated as a radioactive property by many of these threads, until the East v. West elements were removed. At which point he becomes fabulous (even tho he's still a Fu Manchu stand-in).

    A character that wants to dominate all humanity shouldn't be off limits because they come from an exploited culture or ethnicity. IMO, that not only gives the villain complexity, it opens room for discussion about oppression, colonialism, and the consequences that follow.
    Maybe they just wanted to do the Mandarin.

  9. #54
    Extraordinary Member MichaelC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    (even tho he's still a Fu Manchu stand-in).
    Eeeh, there are a lot of core differences between Fu Manchu and The Mandarin.

    Fu Manchu is fundamentally death. He's exquisitely polite even as he's arranging to poison your tea or slip a snake into your bed. He's logical and icy and incredibly patient. He never gets his hands dirty, always acting through agents and traps. He is also vaguely sexless.

    The Mandarin is fundamentally war. It takes almost nothing to drive him into a rage where he'll karate-chop off your arms and rip your face off with his teeth. He'll barrage your house with missiles and invade your country with a mercenary army headed by a two mile long robotic dragon. And he looooves to his hands dirty and bloody. He's a superhuman martial artist, but that description doesn't do him justice. His martial arts mastery and his mastery of chi-amping his body are both expressions of his savagery. He loves to get in there and karate-chop you to pieces, and thanks his chi-amping he can do that even if you are in armor that shrugs off tank-shells like it was nothing. He is also masculine to the point of being gross, with harems and such.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelC View Post
    Eeeh, there are a lot of core differences between Fu Manchu and The Mandarin.

    Fu Manchu is fundamentally death. He's exquisitely polite even as he's arranging to poison your tea or slip a snake into your bed. He's logical and icy and incredibly patient. He never gets his hands dirty, always acting through agents and traps. He is also vaguely sexless.

    The Mandarin is fundamentally war. It takes almost nothing to drive him into a rage where he'll karate-chop off your arms and rip your face off with his teeth. He'll barrage your house with missiles and invade your country with a mercenary army headed by a two mile long robotic dragon. And he looooves to his hands dirty and bloody. He's a superhuman martial artist, but that description doesn't do him justice. His martial arts mastery and his mastery of chi-amping his body are both expressions of his savagery. He loves to get in there and karate-chop you to pieces, and thanks his chi-amping he can do that even if you are in armor that shrugs off tank-shells like it was nothing. He is also masculine to the point of being gross, with harems and such.
    Considering this Disney and they will want to do a PG-13 film, they likely will not have a harem, but they have Mandarin be a hands-on character, him and Shang Chi will have an epic fight in the climax at least.

    Arguably they are combing elements of Marvel's Fu Manchu with the Mandarin in this film, which happens a lot in comic book movies, in the X-Men movies Sebastian Shaw has a lot of elements from Mr. Sinister, William Stryker was a combo of comics Stryker and Professor Thornton and Hela was a lot of different Thor characters roled onto one in the films:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkrCK3QP3h4

    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    So, as long as his protagonist and writers are East Asian, it's cool to make a powermad villain of him. If his adversary and writers are Western, it's racist.

    Seriously, this isn't meant to troll. It's just that The Mandarin was treated as a radioactive property by many of these threads, until the East v. West elements were removed. At which point he becomes fabulous (even tho he's still a Fu Manchu stand-in).

    A character that wants to dominate all humanity shouldn't be off limits because they come from an exploited culture or ethnicity. IMO, that not only gives the villain complexity, it opens room for discussion about oppression, colonialism, and the consequences that follow.
    The problem is the context of the Iron Man vs. Mandarin conflict:

    Iron Man the white hero who represents Western technology, progress and enlightenment, vs. The Mandarin, the backward Asian villain who represents savagery and ''Eastern mysticism'', who is often written with no real redeeming qualities. That's not a great look and if he fights Shang Chi that context is gone.
    Last edited by The Overlord; 07-23-2019 at 09:12 PM.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Overlord View Post
    Considering this Disney and they will want to do a PG-13 film, they likely will not have a harem, but they have Mandarin be a hands-on character, him and Shang Chi will have an epic fight in the climax at least.

    Arguably they are combing elements of Marvel's Fu Manchu with the Mandarin in this film, which happens a lot in comic book movies, in the X-Men movies Sebastian Shaw has a lot of elements from Mr. Sinister, William Stryker was a combo of comics Stryker and Professor Thornton and Hela was a lot of different Thor characters roled onto one in the films:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkrCK3QP3h4



    The problem is the context of the Iron Man vs. Mandarin conflict:

    Iron Man the white hero who represents Western technology, progress and enlightenment, vs. The Mandarin, the backward Asian villain who represents savagery and ''Eastern mysticism'', who is often written with no real redeeming qualities. That's not a great look and if he fights Shang Chi that context is gone.
    Eh the Mandarin has the old mad scientist thing going back in the 1960s as well. He was a jack of all trades and far from backwards. IIRC I have an Avengers reprint where does the whole orbital death ray thing for example.

  12. #57
    Extraordinary Member MichaelC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by regnak View Post
    Eh the Mandarin has the old mad scientist thing going back in the 1960s as well. He was a jack of all trades and far from backwards. IIRC I have an Avengers reprint where does the whole orbital death ray thing for example.
    Sort of, but he has routinely done things like kidnap scientists and enslaved them to invent for him, and reverse engineered stuff. He isn't one those guys who cloisters himself in a lab and trots out his world conquering invention. Rather, he's more like Indiana Jones villains and Bond villains, using money and military power to gain all other resources. One day he'll kidnap and enslave a bunch of scientists. Another day he'll steal an ancient magical item from a hidden temple. Another day he'll buy the land out from under a temple of Shaolin monks and force them to teach him more chi mysticism.

    If I had to define The Mandarin with three words I would pick Savage, Devious, Exploitative. The Mandarin fights, the Mandarin schemes, the Mandarin enslaves, the Mandarin conquers resources be they people, technological, or mystical. The Mandarin is war and colonialism made flesh, a human Ares.

  13. #58
    King of Wakanda Midvillian1322's Avatar
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    I personaly only find the asians doing martial arts stereotype off putting when it a movie with only one Asian in it and hes a Kung fu expert. If the movie is a mostly Asian cast people doing Kung fu is fine. That's like calling Ip Man or any Kung Fu movie racist. Mandarin I never really saw as a racists but I havent really read much of his original storys. They are before my time and I've never cared enough about him or Iornman to go read them. Though I have an old tales of suspense comic where Mandarin is torturing Tony on a rack it looks like. But I've never read it lol.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelC View Post
    Eeeh, there are a lot of core differences between Fu Manchu and The Mandarin.

    Fu Manchu is fundamentally death. He's exquisitely polite even as he's arranging to poison your tea or slip a snake into your bed. He's logical and icy and incredibly patient. He never gets his hands dirty, always acting through agents and traps. He is also vaguely sexless.

    The Mandarin is fundamentally war. It takes almost nothing to drive him into a rage where he'll karate-chop off your arms and rip your face off with his teeth. He'll barrage your house with missiles and invade your country with a mercenary army headed by a two mile long robotic dragon. And he looooves to his hands dirty and bloody. He's a superhuman martial artist, but that description doesn't do him justice. His martial arts mastery and his mastery of chi-amping his body are both expressions of his savagery. He loves to get in there and karate-chop you to pieces, and thanks his chi-amping he can do that even if you are in armor that shrugs off tank-shells like it was nothing. He is also masculine to the point of being gross, with harems and such.
    Having read this, I'm going to be CRUSHINGLY disappointed if this film doesn't feature a two-mile long robotic dragon.

  15. #60
    Extraordinary Member MichaelC's Avatar
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    Heh! Y'know, I'd like to see the Dragon of Heaven in live-action as well.

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