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  1. #76
    Incredible Member Mr.Majestic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Star_Jammer View Post
    I wonder if he will have his self-cloning capabilities in the movie?
    I hope not, that power is problematic. It brings the wrong type of imagery. A multitude of same looking people and such. Personally I think you just give Shang tech that makes him create mirror versions of himself, a la Enter the Dragon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Punisher007 View Post
    The fact that they got Tony at all is impressive, he's a legend in Hong Kong but hasn't done a ton of Western films.
    I don't think he's done any.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tien Long View Post
    I think that there is this sense of "taking ownership" and "doing it right" in the Shang-Chi film. Yes, The Mandarin, Fu Manchu, hell even Shang-Chi, are all tropes and caricatures of East Asians. They are "Orientalist" this and "yellow peril" that. HOWEVER, there are elements within this characters that are still pretty cool and noteworthy (or at the very least, there is potential). In the past, the Mandarin and Zheng Zu have been portrayed as being either buck-toothed or Orientalist.
    Strongly agree. I've also always wanted for ages for Asian actors to "take ownership" of Charlie Chan and Mr. Moto. I personally think Jackie Chan playing Detective Charlie Chan solving mysteries in San Francisco could've worked. Mr. Moto is a pretty great character, all he needs is a good Asian actor in the part.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tien Long View Post
    (Gail Simone can write tough action stuff with male protagonists. Christopher Priest writes a mean Deathstroke. Jim Lee draws a fantastic Batman. None are the same race and/or gender of the characters they produce).

    But I still see it. And maybe a film like this can lead to a day where people don't care who writes whom, plays whom, or produces whom, just as long as its a great whom.
    One example is Moana. It was directed by two middle-age White guys but they took their time and asked for help from the right people to create an authentic story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    i worry about this history being adopted by the comics, to be honest. it would be a poor fit. i wonder if Kun Lun will be involved, at all.
    K'un L'un's probably gonna sit on the bench for a while. Just to air out the Iron Fist stink from off of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    I think another good example to bring up is Ebony White from the old Spirit comics. The way Eisner portrayed him in the 40's would be seen as racist today, but modern writers were able to still use him by taking out the caricature stuff and making him a normal kid named Eubie.
    Ebony White is shockingly racist. It's straight out of a cartoon you might see on a thread on Stormfront.

  2. #77
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    Here’s the thing about comics: comics are the land of martial artists, and crimelords, and mad scientists, and ninjas, and detectives, and areas that are, to paraphrase Star Wars, hives of scum and villainy. This is true even in stories where every single character, both good and evil, are white. Yet every one of those character-concepts is an asian stereotype. The end result is that you either make an exception for comics and allow Asian characters to be somewhat stereotypical because the genre demands it, or you write the Asian characters so blandly that they are forgettable and get pushed aside by white characters who shamelessly embody those tropes, or you banish Asians from comics altogether.

    Kingpin is a crimelord who is also a martial artist and sumo-wrestler.

    Tony Stark is a science nerd who pilots a mech.

    Batman is a ninja who is also a detective.

    Daredevil is a blind ninja.

    Can you imagine if Batman were created today as an Asian character? There would be outrage at the idea of an Asian who was both a ninja, and a detective like Charlie Chan and Mister Moto. Oh my god the horror! How could you dare fuse two Asian stereotypes into one embodiment of double awfulness!?!?!

    Yet we all know that Batman is one of the greatest characters in comics.

    By insisting that no Asian character can have comicbook tropes because those comicbook tropes are also Asian stereotypes, you effectively banish Asians from the genre.

    The Mandarin is a genius at science, military tactics, martial arts, political intrigue, and just about anything else relevant to conquest. He is astoundingly badass on every level. If that offends you, then you must also accept that no Asian actor will ever be given a role as juicey as Batman or The Joker, because you have banished Asians completely from the genre by rejecting all of the tropes of the genre.

  3. #78
    King of Wakanda Midvillian1322's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Majestic View Post
    I hope not, that power is problematic. It brings the wrong type of imagery. A multitude of same looking people and such. Personally I think you just give Shang tech that makes him create mirror versions of himself, a la Enter the Dragon.



    I don't think he's done any.



    Strongly agree. I've also always wanted for ages for Asian actors to "take ownership" of Charlie Chan and Mr. Moto. I personally think Jackie Chan playing Detective Charlie Chan solving mysteries in San Francisco could've worked. Mr. Moto is a pretty great character, all he needs is a good Asian actor in the part.



    One example is Moana. It was directed by two middle-age White guys but they took their time and asked for help from the right people to create an authentic story.



    K'un L'un's probably gonna sit on the bench for a while. Just to air out the Iron Fist stink from off of it.



    Ebony White is shockingly racist. It's straight out of a cartoon you might see on a thread on Stormfront.
    Also on Moana's soundtrack they had lin Manuel who's Puerto Rican make it. But he had polynesian musicians working with him on every second of that soundtrack and it's a beautiful soundtrack.

  4. #79
    Silver Sentinel BeastieRunner's Avatar
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    I figured since this is a big budget movie the chi aspects will be played up so I assumed if Shang had his clones, they would like glowing chi versions of himself.
    "Always listen to the crazy scientist with a weird van or armful of blueprints and diagrams." -- Vibranium

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Majestic View Post
    I hope not, that power is problematic. It brings the wrong type of imagery. A multitude of same looking people and such. Personally I think you just give Shang tech that makes him create mirror versions of himself, a la Enter the Dragon.
    I don't understand the problematic part. Is this an "All Asians look the same" thing? So...only white people can have the power to clone their self and it not be "problematic"?

    And how is creating mirror images of oneself functionally different than creating clones?

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Star_Jammer View Post
    I don't understand the problematic part. Is this an "All Asians look the same" thing? So...only white people can have the power to clone their self and it not be "problematic"?

    And how is creating mirror images of oneself functionally different than creating clones?
    Because apparently anything and everything is problematic to some people when it comes to the subject of how Asians should be presented. Can't be skilled fighters, can't be wimpy nerds, can't be smart, can't be dumb, can't be angry, can't be passive.
    Last edited by MichaelC; 07-31-2019 at 08:18 AM.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelC View Post

    Kingpin is a crimelord who is also a martial artist and sumo-wrestler.

    Tony Stark is a science nerd who pilots a mech.

    Batman is a ninja who is also a detective.

    Daredevil is a blind ninja.
    Wrong.

    Kingpin was a bond villain that they added sumo and asian martial arts ideas to, so they could explain how a giant fat guy was also a physical threat.

    Tony Stark was an excersise in Stan Lee creating a character the fanbase hated (rich weapons developer) and seeing if he could sell it.. Mechs werent even a thing in the western conscious then, the closest was a "robot you could pilot" which was distinctly different.

    Batman has always been Sherlock Holmes and The Shadow mixed with Zorro. This is a fact.

    Daredevil became a ninja in the 80s. For 20 odd years he was just a boxer

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelC View Post
    Because apparently anything and everything is problematic with Asians. Can't be skilled fighters, can't be wimpy nerds, can't be smart, can't be dumb, can't be angry, can't be passive, jesus chriiiiiiiiiiiiiist!!!
    I don't think this is what Mr Majestic is saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelC View Post
    Here’s the thing about comics: comics are the land of martial artists, and crimelords, and mad scientists, and ninjas, and detectives, and areas that are, to paraphrase Star Wars, hives of scum and villainy. This is true even in stories where every single character, both good and evil, are white. Yet every one of those character-concepts is an asian stereotype. The end result is that you either make an exception for comics and allow Asian characters to be somewhat stereotypical because the genre demands it, or you write the Asian characters so blandly that they are forgettable and get pushed aside by white characters who shamelessly embody those tropes, or you banish Asians from comics altogether.

    Kingpin is a crimelord who is also a martial artist and sumo-wrestler.

    Tony Stark is a science nerd who pilots a mech.

    Batman is a ninja who is also a detective.

    Daredevil is a blind ninja.

    Can you imagine if Batman were created today as an Asian character? There would be outrage at the idea of an Asian who was both a ninja, and a detective like Charlie Chan and Mister Moto. Oh my god the horror! How could you dare fuse two Asian stereotypes into one embodiment of double awfulness!?!?!

    Yet we all know that Batman is one of the greatest characters in comics.

    By insisting that no Asian character can have comicbook tropes because those comicbook tropes are also Asian stereotypes, you effectively banish Asians from the genre.

    The Mandarin is a genius at science, military tactics, martial arts, political intrigue, and just about anything else relevant to conquest. He is astoundingly badass on every level. If that offends you, then you must also accept that no Asian actor will ever be given a role as juicey as Batman or The Joker, because you have banished Asians completely from the genre by rejecting all of the tropes of the genre.
    Yes, there are tropes in comics that are somewhat outdated but the way they are applied to white characters vs non-white ones is what makes the difference.

    Take Batman for example. Batman is a detective, scientist and martial artist. He has also had stories focusing on his love life, his PTSD, his relationships with friends and family, etc. Would an Asian Bruce Wayne have had that? Given the problems with Asian characters in superhero stories which are still in effect to this day, it is very doubtful (see Marvel Netflix’s The Hand). Of course we shouldn’t rob an Asian actor of a potentially juicy role but the role is only as juicy the writers make it.

    This is why this movie, and the presence of the Mandarin in particular, have so many people on edge. Marvel is going to be fighting against decades of entrenched racism and there are very real reasons to have low expectations given how long it took them for them to even make a movie about a non-white lead. People can talk about how the Mandarin is a lot more complex than he is now but it won’t erase the character’s history nor change the fact that he was left out of the Iron Man movies for very understandable reasons.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 07-31-2019 at 12:16 AM.

  9. #84
    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Okay, folks, let's take this down a notch.

    1. Be respectful of everyone and their respective cultures.

    2. Address the topic, not the person posting it.

    3. Re-read the rules on civil discussion and stick with 'em.

    Thank you.
    Gaelforce
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    THE CBR COMMUNITY STANDARDS & RULES - Ignorance of the rules is no excuse!

  10. #85
    Extraordinary Member j9ac9k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelC View Post
    That's a strawman logical fallacy. For the record, I'm a far-left progressive who has had the SJW accusation applied to me more than once. But even as a far left liberal SJW myself, I find the utter obsession with finding any tiny thing and lawyering it into being offensive to the point where you effectively banish Asians from the genre because they aren't allowed to be anything other than blandly perfect exhausting.
    No, it's not. And your "jesus chriiiiiiiist!" reaction wasn't exactly logical - it was emotional. And while I understand that you think that people finding offense at things can lead to "bland" characters, that's only one possible outcome. The other is that they create a character that is nuanced and respectful. Quality will win out over whatever naysayers might still be around. (because you can't please everyone) And the term "utter obsession with finding any tiny thing" is reductive at most, dismissive at worst. Some of these are legitimate concerns dealing with something very personal to many people. Again, lumping in all the criticism or all the critics as though it's indicative of ONE singular mindset just to be ale to dismiss all of it is the real "strawman" you've set up. (i.e. "Asians" find everything problematic)
    Last edited by j9ac9k; 07-31-2019 at 06:19 AM.

  11. #86
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    I'm not lumping all critiques together. That's a strawman. I never once said that all critics don't have legitimate concerns. Nor did I once suggest that all Asians have the same mindset, which is an incredibly offensive strawman on your part, not so subtly implying me to be a racist. I never said that everyone who has a critique are among those that obsess over finding something to be offended over. But there are some people who do, especially in the CCP,(indeed, the CCP and their fifty-cent-army was overwhelmingly who was on my mind in the first place) and I find that group exhausting. I don't think every critic is part of that group, and I sure as hell don't think all Asians are in that group. That's a strawman and an ad hominem to suggest I do.
    Last edited by MichaelC; 07-31-2019 at 06:42 AM.

  12. #87
    Extraordinary Member j9ac9k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelC View Post
    I'm not lumping all critiques together. That's a strawman. I never once said that all critics don't have legitimate concerns. Nor did I once suggest that all Asians have the same mindset, which is an incredibly offensive strawman on your part, not so subtly implying me to be a racist. I never said that everyone who has a critique are among those that obsess over finding something to be offended over. But there are some people who do, especially in the CCP,(indeed, the CCP and their fifty-cent-army was overwhelmingly who was on my mind in the first place) and I find that group exhausting. I don't think every critic is part of that group, and I sure as hell don't think all Asians are in that group. That's a strawman and an ad hominem to suggest I do.
    You said:
    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelC View Post
    Because apparently anything and everything is problematic with Asians. Can't be skilled fighters, can't be wimpy nerds, can't be smart, can't be dumb, can't be angry, can't be passive, jesus chriiiiiiiiiiiiiist!!!
    (your quotation before you edited it)

    Maybe you just didn't express yourself accurately with that one, I don't know - we'll just disagree.

  13. #88
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    Ah, I see. I did phrase that clumsily. When I said "with Asians", I didn't mean "all Asians view the same things as problematic". I meant "on the subject of Asians". My apologies for the very clumsy phrasing.

  14. #89
    Legend HowitzerJoe's Avatar
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    I hope he doesn't have a gimmick like making copies of himself. Always liked the idea of Shang Chi just being a regular human with the "power" of max potential of martial arts fighting abilities.

  15. #90
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    why can't I shake of the feeling it will be a sucess in Asia except the PRC

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