What do you think about the Marauders line up?

[powerpax]

Well, we can say he was at least a big advocate for male nudity and men in chains (see Sam and Berto swimming naked, Havok and Brian Braddock's Inferno outfits and submissive roles) so it's fair to think there was fetishism there, too.

Exactly what I was talking about. Claremont never hesitated to get all the X-Men, male and female (and underage ), naked and in leather. So his rampant and relentless kinks ultimately served a progressive purpose!

The Wolverine bisexual thing is news to me, though. I don't really remember much male-male subtext from Claremont. The female stuff was everywhere, which as we've said makes sense for a predominantly heterosexual writer with deep kinks. But maybe I haven't looked at it in a long time. You can make an argument on Charles and Erik/Magnus from many writers. Or maybe Doug and Warlock? I dunno.

[stormphoenix]

I REALLY hope this is a Good Book.

Man Gerry Duggan PLEASE deliver man.

[TOTALITY]

Claremont himself is for sure an imperfect vessel for anyone’s queer hopes and dreams — in the same interview where he says he thought of Rachel as the love of Kitty’s life (on the Jay and Miles podcast), he also said that given the opportunity to make any of the queer subtext more explicit, he wouldn’t because he likes that everyone can read X-Men “including Mormons.” Also brought up several of his most problematic plot points (Karma’s temporary obesity, Tom Corsi and Sharon Friedlander ‘transformed into native americans against their will’), in a positive way, totally unprompted. Honestly he was the same way when I met him at a convention last year. I actually asked him if he’d explore Kitty and Karma’s relationship more if given the chance (lol) and he said no, but cited Kitty and Rachel’s intended marriage in The End. Also did a lot of embarrassing accents and stuff at his panel, just like the ones he writes lmao. And he has been intentionally, knowingly progressive in a lot of ways too of course; complicated guy is all I’m saying..

But even though some of his intentions were more progressive than what was on the page and some were probably much less, it’s probably more important to remember intent and the work itself are two different things, and any way that the stories resonated with readers is still valid I think. He could be ‘kinky’ (better than completely sexless imo!) but I don’t think that’s mutually exclusive to a less leering male-gazey queerness. To focus on just the explicitly sexual or romantic elements maybe does a disservice to how fully realized Claremont’s characters felt in general (your mileage may vary but to the extent that the tone of bronze age superhero comics would allow, they all felt like old friends to me and I totally wouldn’t mind if every issue was just softball or beers or trips to the mall!) And regardless of intent or if anything romantic was even happening in a given issue, Kitty, Ororo, Rachel and others just always read super queer to me! But Kitty most of all. Hard to explain that resonance in terms other than ‘x totally had feeling for y’ type ‘evidence’, though there certainly is that. And since so much of it is so subjective it’s hard to argue that other writers are objectively ‘getting it wrong.’ More just, I know I’m not the only one who has felt this way and I hope someday one of us is editing X-Men books ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[PsychoEFrost]

I mean, do I need to spell it out? We all know what Kinky Grandpa was into, and it was New York in the 80s. I do appreciate him always keeping it equal gender-opportunity in the books though; seeing all the male X-Men/NMs in leather or little else throughout his various ludicrous stories was an eye-opener for a tiny little pre-gay comic book kid.

ahem. As for the Marauders lineup, there is no evidence Emma or anyone else is just a support player. Y'all have seen a grand total of like 2-3 pages and some vague solicits. Chill.

Actually, there's no evidence Emma ISN'T, and some evidence that she IS, so you have it reversed.

[powerpax]

Show me the evidence that isn't a wild asspull extrapolation of a cover (i.e., "she communicates with Shaw therefore she must be on land and not a featured team member") or "this other writer did this". I'll wait.

[powerpax]

Karma’s temporary obesity, Tom Corsi and Sharon Friedlander ‘transformed into native americans against their will’

Oh God! I forgot all that. Man, the **** we just took for granted back in the day.

I think Claremont is a kinky old dude with a million goofy flaws, but also very progressive in his very slanted and imperfect way. So yeah, I basically totally agree with you. Even if he got off on it it was still a heart and mind in the right place, the characters and relationships were very rich, and the text/subtext a lot bolder than a lot of what people do with these books. Like, by comparison I couldn't give a fuuuuuuccckkkkkk about Rogue and Gambit marrying* or Kitty and Piotr getting together for the 20th time in a childhood relationship that hasn't rung true since 1985.

* - come at me stans they were boring 25 years ago too

[RachelGrey]

Show me the evidence that isn't a wild asspull extrapolation of a cover (i.e., "she communicates with Shaw therefore she must be on land and not a featured team member") or "this other writer did this". I'll wait.

Admittedly it's all speculation right now. However, the solicits seem to hint that Emma doesn't even show up till issue 2 and she is mostly involved in the running of the organization and Emma and Shaw are fighting over who gets to make decisions about trade and shipping.

But you are right, they may be keeping it deliberately vague so we don't exactly know what is going on. Emma and Storm are in the last couple of issues of House of X together so it's possible that they have an arrangement of some kind that carries forward into Marauders.

[PsychoEFrost]

Show me the evidence that isn't a wild asspull extrapolation of a cover (i.e., "she communicates with Shaw therefore she must be on land and not a featured team member") or "this other writer did this". I'll wait.

You mean other than the official solicit for Marauders 2, where she is as far away from the rest of the team as humanly possible?

[Maestroneto]

Admittedly it's all speculation right now. However, the solicits seem to hint that Emma doesn't even show up till issue 2 and she is mostly involved in the running of the organization and Emma and Shaw are fighting over who gets to make decisions about trade and shipping.

But you are right, they may be keeping it deliberately vague so we don't exactly know what is going on. Emma and Storm are in the last couple of issues of House of X together so it's possible that they have an arrangement of some kind that carries forward into Marauders.

Lolli posted Emma art many months ago. I doubt he’s that far ahead.

[powerpax]

Admittedly it's all speculation right now. However, the solicits seem to hint that Emma doesn't even show up till issue 2

Isn't she on the cover of #1 with the rest of the team? On a boat? By the logic being used re: #2 to claim Emma is not on the team and is a support player, that same logic suggests the diametric opposite.

and she is mostly involved in the running of the organization and Emma and Shaw are fighting over who gets to make decisions about trade and shipping.

Again, the solicit only indicates she is involved with the business and interacting with Shaw. It does not say she is not among the Marauders.

[powerpax]

You mean other than the official solicit for Marauders 2, where she is as far away from the rest of the team as humanly possible?

Really? Where is she? You've read it, I assume. Will Emma and Shaw also be playing with plastic figurines of the Marauders, since covers are always totally literal and never serve a thematic or stylistic purpose?

[Maestroneto]

A month ago people were mad that Emma was going to humiliated on the boat by Storm and Kitty but now they’re mad she’s not on the boat.

Just like they loved Duggan’s depiction of Emma in Infinity Wars, but now have conspiracy theories about how he’s part of the anti-Emma cabal.

[PsychoEFrost]

Really? Where is she? You've read it, I assume. Will Emma and Shaw also be playing with plastic figurines of the Marauders, since covers are always totally literal and never serve a thematic or stylistic purpose?

At this point you're deliberately obtuse.

"The Hellfire Trading Company has control of Mutant trade on the seas… but that doesn’t mean its Inner Circle is done stabbing one another in the back. As Captain Pryde and her Marauders sail on, the real cutthroats are back home…"

So Emma isn't with the team at all. Whether or not she is allied with them has yet to be seen. But that's evidence for my point, and absolutely zero for yours. So cut the condescending BS.

[PsychoEFrost]

A month ago people were mad that Emma was going to humiliated on the boat by Storm and Kitty but now they’re mad she’s not on the boat.

Just like they loved Duggan’s depiction of Emma in Infinity Wars, but now have conspiracy theories about how he’s part of the anti-Emma cabal.

Almost like the people complaining are two different groups or something. I wasn't excited for Marauders due to the name, the alternate universe premise, and that the team is full of people who hate Emma, but I never thought there would be humiliation going on.

Duggan's Emma was fine in Infinity Wars. Emma was awesome in Purple Daughter. Too bad she's been nightmarishly horrible in every X-book since 2012 (arguably 2009). That's almost a full decade.

[spirit2011]

Claremont himself is for sure an imperfect vessel for anyone’s queer hopes and dreams — in the same interview where he says he thought of Rachel as the love of Kitty’s life (on the Jay and Miles podcast), he also said that given the opportunity to make any of the queer subtext more explicit, he wouldn’t because he likes that everyone can read X-Men “including Mormons.” Also brought up several of his most problematic plot points (Karma’s temporary obesity, Tom Corsi and Sharon Friedlander ‘transformed into native americans against their will’), in a positive way, totally unprompted. Honestly he was the same way when I met him at a convention last year. I actually asked him if he’d explore Kitty and Karma’s relationship more if given the chance (lol) and he said no, but cited Kitty and Rachel’s intended marriage in The End. Also did a lot of embarrassing accents and stuff at his panel, just like the ones he writes lmao. And he has been intentionally, knowingly progressive in a lot of ways too of course; complicated guy is all I’m saying..

But even though some of his intentions were more progressive than what was on the page and some were probably much less, it’s probably more important to remember intent and the work itself are two different things, and any way that the stories resonated with readers is still valid I think. He could be ‘kinky’ (better than completely sexless imo!) but I don’t think that’s mutually exclusive to a less leering male-gazey queerness. To focus on just the explicitly sexual or romantic elements maybe does a disservice to how fully realized Claremont’s characters felt in general (your mileage may vary but to the extent that the tone of bronze age superhero comics would allow, they all felt like old friends to me and I totally wouldn’t mind if every issue was just softball or beers or trips to the mall!) And regardless of intent or if anything romantic was even happening in a given issue, Kitty, Ororo, Rachel and others just always read super queer to me! But Kitty most of all. Hard to explain that resonance in terms other than ‘x totally had feeling for y’ type ‘evidence’, though there certainly is that. And since so much of it is so subjective it’s hard to argue that other writers are objectively ‘getting it wrong.’ More just, I know I’m not the only one who has felt this way and I hope someday one of us is editing X-Men books ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I get the Claremont POV, it is a old type that was more conservative about openess of sexuality. I think it is BS, if a Mormon want to read the book he has to accept everything that comes with it, including gay character and before marriage sex.

I think Kitty gave many reasons to someone think she is gay, maybe even too many