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  1. #451
    Incredible Member Hi-Fi's Avatar
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    I have faith in Duggan not shying away from showing Iceman enjoying some men on men action. I'd hope he'd expand on the ever-so-present subtext of Kitty being queer, but that seems more like a Marvel responsibility than his and I'm not sure Marvel has any interest in investing on that.

    The thing is this book has the 2 most high profile black characters from the X-Men (Storm and Bishop) and the most high profile gay character from the team as well (Bobby). Hopefully they'll have meaty roles like Kitty and Emma will obviously have.

  2. #452
    New Mutant TOTALITY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maestroneto View Post
    Kitty‘s queerness and shitty training costume was brought up in roughly every Gold related thread.
    Thank you! I am just coming back to X-Men after drifting away from the comics and these message boards circa the middle of Lemire’s run. (A run I totally forgot existed until the other day, which blew my mind to remember.)

    Sorry to burst in here like the kool-aid man all “bet no one’s talking about this!” but I was genuinely curious and it’s very heartening to know I am far from alone in having Strong Kitty Feelings

  3. #453
    Mighty Member KangMiRae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hi-Fi View Post
    I have faith in Duggan not shying away from showing Iceman enjoying some men on men action. I'd hope he'd expand on the ever-so-present subtext of Kitty being queer, but that seems more like a Marvel responsibility than his and I'm not sure Marvel has any interest in investing on that.

    The thing is this book has the 2 most high profile black characters from the X-Men (Storm and Bishop) and the most high profile gay character from the team as well (Bobby). Hopefully they'll have meaty roles like Kitty and Emma will obviously have.
    I guarantee you they won't.
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  4. #454
    New Mutant TOTALITY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hi-Fi View Post
    I have faith in Duggan not shying away from showing Iceman enjoying some men on men action. I'd hope he'd expand on the ever-so-present subtext of Kitty being queer, but that seems more like a Marvel responsibility than his and I'm not sure Marvel has any interest in investing on that.

    The thing is this book has the 2 most high profile black characters from the X-Men (Storm and Bishop) and the most high profile gay character from the team as well (Bobby). Hopefully they'll have meaty roles like Kitty and Emma will obviously have.
    It does seem more like a Marvel responsibility and I feel like nothing is ever going to change there until they wake up and realize what they have in X-Men as their most historically diverse AND thoroughly queer franchise, and actually put some people in charge who are in touch with that segment of readership. Not that I think fans should be dictating the stories or anything; I’m thinking more of guiding worldview and aesthetic principles.

    In the meantime I’ll settle for some good comics, which thankfully Hickman and co. are delivering, though I do think at some point the forward-looking optimism of its sci-fi concepts is going to feel dissonant if it’s not matched by similarly inclusive and forward looking representation. But you’re right that this book is already doing pretty well on that front based on the cast alone.

  5. #455
    Chris-chan of X-fans Maestroneto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TOTALITY View Post
    Thank you! I am just coming back to X-Men after drifting away from the comics and these message boards circa the middle of Lemire’s run. (A run I totally forgot existed until the other day, which blew my mind to remember.)

    Sorry to burst in here like the kool-aid man all “bet no one’s talking about this!” but I was genuinely curious and it’s very heartening to know I am far from alone in having Strong Kitty Feelings
    Guggenheim was very combative about Kitty being bisexual and his run in general was agressively straight, so it was brought up a lot more than during Bendis' run for example, who also put Kitty with a guy, but also insinuated that in a world free of prejudice, she'd be in a relationship with Magik.

  6. #456
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    Quote Originally Posted by KangMiRae View Post
    I guarantee you they won't.
    I trust Duggan. Every character from Uncanny Avengers felt important when he was writing it.

  7. #457
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maestroneto View Post
    Guggenheim was very combative about Kitty being bisexual and his run in general was agressively straight, so it was brought up a lot more than during Bendis' run for example, who also put Kitty with a guy, but also insinuated that in a world free of prejudice, she'd be in a relationship with Magik.
    Oh god I guess I’m glad I still haven’t read X-Men Gold, but kind of curious about Guggenheim being full on combative! I guess that means he was at least aware of those readings then? Maybe someone less aggressively straight might also get that memo, in that case..

  8. #458
    Chris-chan of X-fans Maestroneto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TOTALITY View Post
    Oh god I guess I’m glad I still haven’t read X-Men Gold, but kind of curious about Guggenheim being full on combative! I guess that means he was at least aware of those readings then? Maybe someone less aggressively straight might also get that memo, in that case..
    Before the run started, someone on Twitter asked him if he would do a deep dive into Rachel and Kitty's feelings for each other, to which he replied that they were straight and that he only shipped Kitty with Colossus. When subtextual pages were shown to him, he said he stood corrected but some time later in a video interview with IGN he laughed off Katyana and Kichel (lol why does this not have a ship name) shippers as fanfic writers. He also had Kitty state on-page that she sees Magik as her sister which is about as romance-deflating as it gets lol.

  9. #459
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    Im really uninterested in Kitty's queerness because she has slept with too many men called Peter for that. The train has passed for that.

    I am glad about Pyro being gay because that was originally the plan for him, and he always had a strong gay subtext about him. I wouldnt mind the original Brotherhood being 2 gay couples (Mystique/Destiny, Pyro/Avalanche) + the Blob. But to make Kitty queer at this point of time, you would have to throw continuity through the window, as it was done with Iceman, whom now has to be seen as a gay man that was in the closet until his 30s and who did many cringy things while pretending to be straight, like his fights with Havok for Polaris.

    I also think it was teased that Pete Wisdom will be in some book, and I guess it will be here.
    The only good thing about making Kitty gay is it would save us from another terrible run in which the writer self inserts as her boyfriend.

  10. #460
    Incredible Member powerpax's Avatar
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    tbh as a gay fan while I'm all for whatever, I can only take Kitty being bi or queer or what not so seriously given that Claremont made virtually every female character come off at least bicurious back in the day - Kitty, Ororo, Yukio, Illyana, Rachel, you name it. To me it was always part and parcel with his kinks and I hesitate to regard each and every instance as too binding vs. his fantasy fodder. Would I be opposed to Kitty or Ororo coming out? No. I wouldn't be opposed to Hickman unilaterally declaring that most of mutantkind is pansexual either, lol. I just need a bit more to go on than Mekanix which I thought was just the old man whacking it. Kitty and Illyana OTOH has always been crazy lesbionic. And Illyana has def always read as spunky dyke to me, before I even knew what a lesbian was. (Dani and Rahne weren't far off for a time, either.)

    Also, it's easy for str8 comics dudes to lean in on girls being into girls, frankly. Amping up the gay quotient is what really interests me. The homoerotic element in X-Men is underrepresented, beyond Claremont being all too eager to get the men as naked or bondage'd up as the women (again, my 12 yo self thanks him). But that's all superficial trappings, it's not the same emotional or pseudo-sexual intimacy you see between the female characters.

    I'm not going to predict doom for Storm or Bishop in this book. I feel confident that between the flagship book and this they'll be featured.

    Didn't Guggenheim get #MeToo'd on his TV show?

  11. #461
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    I don't know if it is true and I don't want it to sound rude, but Claremont's subtext when it comes to bisexuality always looked weird to me. It always felt more like he liked this kind of Amazonian curious lesbians and made a lot of female characters like that. Like I never saw it as wanting to bring more queer characters to the table (which, as a gay reader I would have loved since there was almost no representation at the time) but more as a kind of winking straight guy that likes girls kissing girls.
    But that's my impression and I might be wrong.

    That said, Kitty being queer would not be that strange. I actually think that she, Illyana and Rachel would work as gay or bisexual characters.

  12. #462
    Incredible Member powerpax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    Claremont's subtext when it comes to bisexuality always looked weird to me. It always felt more like he liked this kind of Amazonian curious lesbians and made a lot of female characters like that. Like I never saw it as wanting to bring more queer characters to the table (which, as a gay reader I would have loved since there was almost no representation at the time) but more as a kind of winking straight guy that likes girls kissing girls.
    But that's my impression and I might be wrong.
    Yeah, it's absolutely that IMO. Yet I also think he'd be all for more representation so y'know, fair enough. The work he put into those relationships was strong and stands the test of time for a reason, even if he got off on it (and he totally did).

  13. #463
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    I don't know if it is true and I don't want it to sound rude, but Claremont's subtext when it comes to bisexuality always looked weird to me. It always felt more like he liked this kind of Amazonian curious lesbians and made a lot of female characters like that. Like I never saw it as wanting to bring more queer characters to the table (which, as a gay reader I would have loved since there was almost no representation at the time) but more as a kind of winking straight guy that likes girls kissing girls.
    But that's my impression and I might be wrong.

    That said, Kitty being queer would not be that strange. I actually think that she, Illyana and Rachel would work as gay or bisexual characters.
    I think Claremont was a fetishist, a straight man but not an average one, into bondage and mind control. He did definitely like strong powerful women. IIRC there were moments of his run in which most of the xmen were women, Rogue, Storm, Dazzler, Psylocke, perhaps Rachel too, as XMen members at the same time, with only a couple of men, Wolverine being one.

  14. #464
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    Quote Originally Posted by powerpax View Post
    Yeah, it's absolutely that IMO. Yet I also think he'd be all for more representation so y'know, fair enough. The work he put into those relationships was strong and stands the test of time for a reason, even if he got off on it (and he totally did).
    Yeah I don't think he would oppose more queer characters to be represented, but maybe it was not his real purpose when he wrote them like that XD

    This book has got all the cards to be very inclusive in many kinds of way btw. I hope it's good.

  15. #465
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    I don't know if it is true and I don't want it to sound rude, but Claremont's subtext when it comes to bisexuality always looked weird to me. It always felt more like he liked this kind of Amazonian curious lesbians and made a lot of female characters like that. Like I never saw it as wanting to bring more queer characters to the table (which, as a gay reader I would have loved since there was almost no representation at the time) but more as a kind of winking straight guy that likes girls kissing girls.
    But that's my impression and I might be wrong.

    That said, Kitty being queer would not be that strange. I actually think that she, Illyana and Rachel would work as gay or bisexual characters.
    Oh it was definitely that, he definitely enjoyed amazonian-like powerful and self-assured women that take charge, as an straight man, i was mostly fine with it, although i did think that i got a little creepy sometimes, bordering on unappropriated. I never saw much LGTB representation from him personally, although i don't think that he was against it
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