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  1. #511
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by powerpax View Post
    Over 20 years? Are you counting Grant Morrison among the writers who hated, disparaged or abused Emma? Because he is the only reason she is as popular and central to the franchise as she is today. Don't kid yourself: Gen X was never going to get her there. Never.

    I hated plenty of the same stories and eras you did. The difference is I don't judge all writers by past resentments. Jonathan Hickman is a very different writer from the cavalcade of either hacks and well-meaning but systemically ineffectual writers we've gotten since NXM and Astonishing ended. And he appears to have carte blanche. I know his work well and choose to trust in it. I came back to the books for him and only him, because in my experience he reflects a commitment to quality, and because of that (and the Fox merger) I believe the years of the franchise between marginalized as a redheaded child are over. You don't trust in that, that's fine. But you don't get to tell me who I'm allowed to trust in as an X-Men fan. And as for who will accept what and be snowed by Marvel? Only one of us was willing to sit through the whole of the last 15 largely terrible years, and it wasn't me.
    For some reason his entire post gave me great feels.
    Whether she's on the boat or in office on land...Emma is a member of the X-Men and the Marauders team (as shown in the Dawn of X announcement at SDCC).
    Duggan, I'm sure is quite capable of writing a multitude of characters in a multitude of settings...all in the same book telling the same story.
    I will never understand the pervasive negativity some have with regards to how their one and only favourite characters will be written by future writers.

  2. #512
    Mighty Member RachelGrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    For some reason his entire post gave me great feels.
    Whether she's on the boat or in office on land...Emma is a member of the X-Men and the Marauders team (as shown in the Dawn of X announcement at SDCC).
    Duggan, I'm sure is quite capable of writing a multitude of characters in a multitude of settings...all in the same book telling the same story.
    I will never understand the pervasive negativity some have with regards to how their one and only favourite characters will be written by future writers.
    I think some people are upset with how she has been written poorly over the last 3 years. Marvel used IvX to get rid of Scott and Emma because they wanted to elevate the Inhumans over the X-Men. Scott got killed off and was called a Hitler type character even though he was just a man trying to save his people from genocide. Emma was used as the scapegoat villain for taking the battle too far in revenge for all the people and children that the Inhumans killed with the terrigen cloud.

    It's funny how a lot of things are perspective in relation to different writers.
    • Secret Empire - the X-writers make Emma look villainous in X-Men Blue, however, on the Avengers writers side of things she is portrayed as a freedom fighter who was working against Hydra and trying to bring them down.
    • MotherVine - the X-writers box themselves in a corner and end up having to redeem Emma by having her side with the heroes to take down Alex, Bastion, and Ms Sinister; it's just too OOC for Emma to want to enslave mutant kind.
    • Infinity War - the Avengers writers once again use Emma in a more heroic portrayal than the X-writers, it's becoming obvious that the x-writers see her as a villain and the avengers writers see her as a morally grey hero.
    • Jean Grey mini - this writer who is completely independent of the normal X-books uses Emma more positively and portrays her genuinely wanting to help and save young Jeen.
    • X-Men Blue (after Jean Grey mini) - starting to lighten up a bit on Emma, she is portrayed as a bit underhanded but she is mostly friendly with the O5 and they try to save her from Magneto who wants revenge for Mothervine.
    • X-Men Black: Emma Frost - Not bad, they do try to portray Emma as using her own methods for the greater good by seizing control of the Hellfire Club violently from Shaw. Emma's overall relationship with the X-Men takes a downturn.
    • Jessica Jones Purple Daughter - once again a writer on the Avengers side of the table portrays Emma as heroic, even after she feels her favor to Jessica is payed back, Emma still shows up later because she is genuinely worried about Jessica and decides to help her take down the Purple Man and his Son.
    • Emma does not appear at all in X-books after X-Men Black: Emma Frost
    • Emma shows up in Uncanny and Rosenberg goes all in on portraying Emma as negatively as he can. Even though there are some attempts to keep her sympathetic Rosenberg just uses the entire run to trash Emma as a character.


    This is where we are now. So Emma is all in with the Hellfire Club and apparently working with Shaw, a man that in the past she hates and despises more than anyone else in the world. I am going to try and stay positive but I can understand why some posters can't. There has been a definite editorial mandate from the x-office to portray Emma as an outright Villain. Most of her more positive portrayal has come from the writers on the Avengers side of things which is actually surprising.

    I know Hickman says he likes Emma, but that doesn't mean he doesn't like Emma as an outright evil villain. I personally think he likes Gen X Emma and may be trying to bring her back to that state, but I know other posters feel he is trying to change her back to the personality she had when she was all in at the Hellfire Club and tormenting Kitty Pryde and Angelica Jones.

  3. #513
    Chris-chan of X-fans Maestroneto's Avatar
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    She was also positively portrayed when she sent Kitty a wedsing gift (and Kitty seemed to appreciate it unlike when Emma showed up in the Iceman mini).

  4. #514
    Mighty Member RachelGrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maestroneto View Post
    She was also positively portrayed when she sent Kitty a wedsing gift (and Kitty seemed to appreciate it unlike when Emma showed up in the Iceman mini).
    I think after Infinity War the writers started letting up on Emma a bit, but you get people like Rosenberg and JDW who both want her to be an outright evil villain tormenting the younger members of the X-Men.

  5. #515
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    RachelGrey:[B]"I think some people are upset with how she has been written poorly over the last 3 years."[/B]

    And I completely understand that.
    If I was so emotionally invested in any one character I would be too.
    But...and this is important...
    We. Do. Not. Know. How. Emma (or Storm and Kitty, for that matter). Will. Be. Written. By. Duggan.
    And...
    So what if she's a member of the Hellfire and the X-Men (Storm and Magneto were, once)? Can't she be both. Can't she be using her Hellfire status to further the cause of Mutants? (I would speculate that that's the reason why Shaw is raging). Very little in today's X-World especially after HoX/PoX should be as Black and White as: Me Hero, You Villain. (Apocalypse is a member of Excalibur for Goddess' sake!)
    Plus...
    Yes. Gen X Emma was sublime. So if we get more of that Emma I for one would be very happy.
    Last edited by Devaishwarya; 08-23-2019 at 10:25 AM.

  6. #516
    Incredible Member powerpax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    I like the Morrison run, but Emma's portrayal was up-and-down at best. It also set the table for the future writings of her not caring at all about the students, and only being there because of Scott, which is a huge disservice to the character.

    Jean stayed dead because of the dumb editorial board controversy regarding the D'Bari.
    Okay, no: You're talking about the early 1980s. Because I promise you, Quesada and Marvel in 2003 did not give a fuck about the D'Bari or Jim Shooter's moral stance. By the 2000s Jean had been the (boring) First Lady of the X-Men for over a decade and a central face of the franchise since the late '80s. She was central. They killed her because it made sense for the story Morrison was telling, not out of some sudden new attack of shock-horror over an ancient storyline. It had nothing to do with 9/11 or Joe's personal life. Cite a source or give it up because that is QAnon level silliness.

    As for Emma and her students, her grief over Genosha and her complex relationship with her students before and after the massacre is a central element of Morrison's run, and made it newly relevant for the next 20 years.

  7. #517
    Incredible Member powerpax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RachelGrey View Post
    I think some people are upset with how she has been written poorly over the last 3 years. Marvel used IvX to get rid of Scott and Emma because they wanted to elevate the Inhumans over the X-Men.
    Which I can certainly understand. I wasn't reading the books then either for a reason. But that's over. The Inhumans can't afford a candy bar these days. The X-Men are back on the rise.

    I know other posters feel he is trying to change her back to the personality she had when she was all in at the Hellfire Club and tormenting Kitty Pryde and Angelica Jones.
    Perfectly understandable, since he has yet to write her at all.

  8. #518
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    RachelGrey:[B]"I think some people are upset with how she has been written poorly over the last 3 years."[/B]

    And I completely understand that.
    If I was so emotionally invested in any one character I would be too.
    But...and this is important...
    We. Do. Not. Know. How. Emma (or Storm and Kitty, for that matter). Will. Be. Written. By. Duggan.
    And...
    So what if she's a member of the Hellfire and the X-Men (Storm and Magneto were, once)? Can't she be both. Can't she be using her Hellfire status to further the cause of Mutants? (I would speculate that that's the reason why Shaw is raging). Very little in today's X-World especially after HoX/PoX should be as Black and White as: Me Hero, You Villain. (Apocalypse is a member of Excalibur for Goddess' sake!)
    Plus...
    Yes. Gen X Emma was sublime. So if we get more of that Emma I for one would be very happy.
    People are basing it off past experiences. These solicits sound similar to previous solicits, and we know how those books have turned out. So yes, we do not know how Duggan will write anyone in the series, there's a feeling of we know how the solicits work, and this seems like what the solicits are leading to. There's been plenty of "solicits don't show everything wait for the book to come out" where the solicits didn't show how bad it was. That's why current writers aren't getting the benefit of the doubt, other writers have used it all up.
    I'm getting apprehensive on the book myself. I don't see the point of having someone on a team if they never really interact with them meaningfully. Which everyone on the ship but Emma points to IMO.

  9. #519
    Incredible Member powerpax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAWRlrus View Post
    I'm getting apprehensive on the book myself. I don't see the point of having someone on a team if they never really interact with them meaningfully. Which everyone on the ship but Emma points to IMO.
    She's on the damn cover with the rest of them, lol

  10. #520
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    Quote Originally Posted by powerpax View Post
    She's on the damn cover with the rest of them, lol
    Covers don't mean much of anything. I remember an Uncanny cover during Bendis' run where Emma and Cyke were fight each other. They weren't even in the book at all. Maybe it changes to where she's on the ship with them after it starts out, but we don't know. Like I said, if she's not actually with the team I don't see a point in her being considered part of the team. Might as well have a HFC book with her in it instated.

  11. #521
    Incredible Member powerpax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAWRlrus View Post
    Maybe it changes to where she's on the ship with them after it starts out, but we don't know. Like I said, if she's not actually with the team I don't see a point in her being considered part of the team. Might as well have a HFC book with her in it instated.
    Okay. Prove she's not actually with the team.

  12. #522
    Mighty Member RachelGrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAWRlrus View Post
    Covers don't mean much of anything. I remember an Uncanny cover during Bendis' run where Emma and Cyke were fight each other. They weren't even in the book at all. Maybe it changes to where she's on the ship with them after it starts out, but we don't know. Like I said, if she's not actually with the team I don't see a point in her being considered part of the team. Might as well have a HFC book with her in it instated.
    I do think everyone is getting a bit heated when the comic hasn't even come out yet. Also Emma and Storm are supposed to be working together somewhat in the tail end of HoX/PoX so who knows what's going to happen.

    It's hard not to be pessimistic about Emma's fate when I know the primary editor and several writers all want Emma to go back to being an all out villain and outright evil. They worship the 80's X-Men and think that no characters should have developed past that point and Emma hasn't changed at all since she was portrayed at the time of Dark Phoenix. Even though later writers in the early 90's portrayed Emma as a bit more sympathetic when she counselled the New Mutants after the Beyonder killed and then resurrected them all. That was one of the things that lead into Emma's eventual change in status after the Massachusetts Academy was attacked and the Hellions were killed. When Emma recovered from her coma she decided to do things more in line with Xavier's dream and worked with Sean to establish Gen X. It's called character progression, characters grow and change and after their backstory is filled in you find out that Emma Frost White Queen of the Hellfire Club loves teaching kids more than any other things she does and that she prioritizes being a teacher over almost everything else. Once you learn that about Emma it gets harder and harder for writers to make her an outright villain, she can be a bit underhanded against people who work against her, but she is always very protective of her kids. I actually liked how during the Onslaught event they revisited her feelings about the Hellions dying and she was obsessively trying to protect the Gen X kids from Onslaught by taking them out of the country to keep them away from Onslaught.

  13. #523
    BANNED spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TOTALITY View Post
    Every rational part of me says not to engage but my fatal flaw really wants to hear more about this dank conspiracy theory. I can't find anything via google - where did this come from? How does the story go? Did Morrison... insert a meta reference to his EiC's marital problems? Did Joe Quesada demand that Grant Morrison include an infidelity plot in his X-Men run as an outlet for his private problems? Is the real reason Morrison never worked for Marvel again because it was the most harrowingly unprofessional work environment of his career, his boss using him as a therapist?
    It's not true at all. Morrison was inserting himself as Scott. Not sure if he ex was a red head, but his gF at the time and now wife is a blonde. Quesada just green light the story

  14. #524
    Incredible Member powerpax's Avatar
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    I mean, we can all say 'oh, the editor wants this', but... look at the actual books. I grew up with '80s (and '90s) X-Men. HoX/PoX and the subsequent Dawn status quo is absolutely not '80s X-Men. Emma Frost hasn't been the pure evil White Queen since sometime around 1991, which BTW was when I thought they would retire her for good during the Upstarts storyline as a kid, they were wiping out Claremont villains and side characters like they were bad habits at that time. So I was surprised and pleased when she returned from that coma. Then they developed her over time, as mentioned above. And Morrison and the 2000s made her ascendant to the point that she supplanted Jean fucking Grey in the books, a character I had longed to see return to oblivion but never thought I would until it happened.

    That long push has stuck. Emma is now integral. All these claims that 'oh, she's going to revert back to the '80s' - they've had countless opportunities to do that. It's never happened. They've given her some shitty storylines, absolutely. But Emma remains featured and promoted in relaunch after relaunch as part of the X-Men, not their rogues' gallery. That is going to continue now. And again, Dawn of X looks like a lot of things but it sure doesn't look like the '80s to me. So maybe let's stop assuming Jordan White is going to overrule Jonathan Hickman, who we know they've given control.
    Last edited by powerpax; 08-23-2019 at 11:40 AM.

  15. #525
    Incredible Member powerpax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    It's not true at all. Morrison was inserting himself as Scott. Not sure if he ex was a red head, but his gF at the time and now wife is a blonde.
    Dude. Come on. This verges on slander. What is your evidence for this? That maybe he was involved with a woman who happened to be blonde IRL, so Morrison was therefore living vicariously through fictional characters? That's flimsy as fuck. Shall we apply that to every writer who's worked on any other character, or just ones you don't like?

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