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  1. #1

    Default Marvel Comics and Fascism

    I see a fascist subtext in Marvel stories for some time now, and I believe it bleeds into readers.

    The list of "smartest characters in the Marvel universe" is lead by 3 characters in particular (Reed Richards, Victor Von Doom, and Valeria Richards), and all 3 of them have shown fascist tendencies since 2010. Mr. Fantastic trusted his daughter's education (which includes political education) and care to a fascist dictator, Dr. Doom is the fascist dictator we are talking about, and Valeria Richards looks up to a fascist dictator and spends her time in dictatorships whenever she can, and becomes a fascist leader herself in some futures. The stories have plotted a clear link between "intelligence" and "fascist tendencies".

    You can also see that when looking at the story of Wakanda. For many years, Wakanda's story was that it was a hidden, untouched African country brought to greatness in recent years thanks to the liberal, scientific mind of its young leader, T'Challa. In 2005, Wakanda's lore was significantly changed. It became a country that enjoyed thousands of years of Utopia under a traditional, isolated rulership, and the young leader T'Challa now has to deal with the constant turmoil caused by his liberal tendencies.

    The fascist dictatorship of Latveria, in contrast, is portrayed as Paradise on Earth. One storyline in particular, "Doomwar", basically spells that the only Earths that "succeed" in making life good in the entire multiverse are the ones under fascism.

    The link between "intelligence" and "fascist tendencies" can also be seen in Nadia Pym, the new Wasp. Nadia, a character created to introduce young readers to STEM, has a fascist ruler as her biggest idol, which might not be appropriated to the children that are the target audience of her books.

    Not by coincidence, it is incredibly common to see comic book fans speaking positively of fascism. A large part of the community believes Dr. Doom to be a heroic figure, and the extra-judicial executions of the Punisher are lauded as a superior way to deal with criminals than the basic arrest done by mainstream heroes. It's inevitable, given the material they have been consuming during all those years.

  2. #2
    iMan 42s
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    Alright, how?

    Where is this data coming from? How is it bleeding into reader's everyday lives?

    Because you can make a point about fascism in the media, but without data to support it you might as well be wearing tin-foil hats.
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  3. #3
    Incredible Member Ying Ko's Avatar
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    Right, I'd suppose to a butthurt

    Quote Originally Posted by Missing Username View Post
    liberal
    even made-up funnybooks about caricatures are fascism...




    Jesus, is anyone else getting bored with some people's need to over politicize everything?

  4. #4
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    Umberto Eco is rolling in his grave.


    Quote Originally Posted by Umberto Eco in Ur-Fascism
    1. The first feature of Ur-Fascism is the cult of tradition... This new culture had to be syncretistic. Syncretism is not only, as the dictionary says, "the combination of different forms of belief or practice"; such a combination must tolerate contradictions. Each of the original messages contains a silver of wisdom, and whenever they seem to say different or incompatible things it is only because all are alluding, allegorically, to the same primeval truth.

    2. Traditionalism implies the rejection of modernism. Both Fascists and Nazis worshiped technology, while traditionalist thinkers usually reject it as a negation of traditional spiritual values. However, even though Nazism was proud of its industrial achievements, its praise of modernism was only the surface of an ideology based upon Blood and Earth (Blut und Boden). The rejection of the modern world was disguised as a rebuttal of the capitalistic way of life, but it mainly concerned the rejection of the Spirit of 1789 (and of 1776, of course). The Enlightenment, the Age of Reason, is seen as the beginning of modern depravity. In this sense Ur-Fascism can be defined as irrationalism.

    3. Irrationalism also depends on the cult of action for action's sake. Action being beautiful in itself, it must be taken before, or without, any previous reflection. Thinking is a form of emasculation. Therefore culture is suspect insofar as it is identified with critical attitudes. Distrust of the intellectual world has always been a symptom of Ur-Fascism, from Goering's alleged statement ("When I hear talk of culture I reach for my gun") to the frequent use of such expressions as "degenerate intellectuals," "eggheads," "effete snobs," "universities are a nest of reds." The official Fascist intellectuals were mainly engaged in attacking modern culture and the liberal intelligentsia for having betrayed traditional values.

    4. No syncretistic faith can withstand analytical criticism. The critical spirit makes distinctions, and to distinguish is a sign of modernism. In modern culture the scientific community praises disagreement as a way to improve knowledge. For Ur-Fascism, disagreement is treason.

    5. Besides, disagreement is a sign of diversity. Ur-Fascism grows up and seeks for consensus by exploiting and exacerbating the natural fear of difference... Thus Ur- Fascism is racist by definition.

    6. Ur-Fascism derives from individual or social frustration. That is why one of the most typical features of the historical fascism was the appeal to a frustrated middle class, a class suffering from an economic crisis or feelings of political humiliation, and frightened by the pressure of lower social groups.

    7. To people who feel deprived of a clear social identity, Ur-Fascism says that their only privilege is the most common one, to be born in the same country. This is the origin of nationalism. Besides, the only ones who can provide an identity to the nation are its enemies. Thus at the root of the Ur-Fascist psychology there is the obsession with a plot, possibly an international one. The followers must feel besieged.

    8. The followers must feel humiliated by the ostentatious wealth and force of their enemies. When I was a boy I was taught to think of Englishmen as the five-meal people. They ate more frequently than the poor but sober Italians.

    9. For Ur-Fascism there is no struggle for life but, rather, life is lived for struggle. Thus pacifism is trafficking with the enemy. It is bad because life is permanent warfare. This, however, brings about an Armageddon complex.

    10. Elitism is a typical aspect of any reactionary ideology, insofar as it is fundamentally aristocratic, and aristocratic and militaristic elitism cruelly implies contempt for the weak.

    11. In such a perspective everybody is educated to become a hero. In every mythology the hero is an exceptional being, but in Ur-Fascist ideology, heroism is the norm. This cult of heroism is strictly linked with the cult of death.

    12. Since both permanent war and heroism are difficult games to play, the Ur-Fascist transfers his will to power to sexual matters. This is the origin of machismo (which implies both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality).

    13. Ur-Fascism is based upon a selective populism, a qualitative populism, one might say. In a democracy, the citizens have individual rights, but the citizens in their entirety have a political impact only from a quantitative point of view – one follows the decisions of the majority. For Ur-Fascism, however, individuals as individuals have no rights, and the People is conceived as a quality, a monolithic entity expressing the Common Will.

    14. Ur-Fascism speaks Newspeak. Newspeak was invented by Orwell, in 1984, as the official language of Ingsoc, English Socialism. But elements of Ur-Fascism are common to different forms of dictatorship. All the Nazi or Fascist schoolbooks made use of an impoverished vocabulary, and an elementary syntax, in order to limit the instruments for complex and critical reasoning.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperiorIronman View Post
    Alright, how?

    Where is this data coming from? How is it bleeding into reader's everyday lives?
    From comic books and personal experience.

    There's really no disputing the fact that Reed Richards trusted the education of his daughter to a fascist dictator, or that Nadia Pym worships a fascist dictator, or that Valeria Richards worships a fascist dictator, or that all the characters that have a somehow positive opinion on fascism are portrayed as the most intelligent ones.

    Have you never find anyone saying that the fascist dictator Doctor Doom is a hero?

  6. #6
    Spectacular Member twisted sun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing Username View Post
    From comic books and personal experience.

    There's really no disputing the fact that Reed Richards trusted the education of his daughter to a fascist dictator, or that Nadia Pym worships a fascist dictator, or that Valeria Richards worships a fascist dictator, or that all the characters that have a somehow positive opinion on fascism are portrayed as the most intelligent ones.

    Have you never find anyone saying that the fascist dictator Doctor Doom is a hero?
    Hmm...OK...most of the time I hear Dr. Dooms name it's because he's the "VILLIAN" of the Fantastic Four not hero so I'm kind of confused. Like do you have scans, data or something supporting this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by twisted sun View Post
    Hmm...OK...most of the time I hear Dr. Dooms name it's because he's the "VILLIAN" of the Fantastic Four not hero so I'm kind of confused. Like do you have scans, data or something supporting this?
    Nope, just misrepresentation of all academics who studied fascism and broad assumptions that people like Doom because they're fascist. By the same logic, I would be a civil engineer rather than a biology adjunct because I play Minecraft or a millionaire for playing monopoly.

  8. #8

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    Doom doesn’t qualify as a fascist dictator either. Unless you think dictator=fascist. Which it doesn’t. You can be a fascist and not a dictator and vice versa.

    Dr. Doom doesn’t run Latveria on any racist or bigoted ideology. He has never called for genocide or so on.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by twisted sun View Post
    Hmm...OK...most of the time I hear Dr. Dooms name it's because he's the "VILLIAN" of the Fantastic Four not hero so I'm kind of confused. Like do you have scans, data or something supporting this?
    The "Storm" of your avatar once fell in love with Doctor Doom.

    You think Storm would fall in love for a villain? And why would Marvel heroes such as Nadia Pym admire villains so much?

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Doom doesn’t qualify as a fascist dictator either. Unless you think dictator=fascist. Which it doesn’t. You can be a fascist and not a dictator and vice versa.

    Dr. Doom doesn’t run Latveria on any racist or bigoted ideology. He has never called for genocide or so on.
    According to "Children's Crusade, Doom was the one that planned the genocide of mutantkind caused after "House of M".

  10. #10
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing Username View Post
    From comic books and personal experience.

    There's really no disputing the fact that Reed Richards trusted the education of his daughter to a fascist dictator, or that Nadia Pym worships a fascist dictator, or that Valeria Richards worships a fascist dictator, or that all the characters that have a somehow positive opinion on fascism are portrayed as the most intelligent ones.

    Have you never find anyone saying that the fascist dictator Doctor Doom is a hero?
    First of all, where exactly does it show that Reed trusted the education of his daughter to Doom? Valeria and Nathaniel had figured out that they would need someone to help delay the arrival of the Mad Celestials in order for their plan to work. If anything, Doom was being played by her to get him do agree to it. He saw through it and did it for her anyway. This is why she went on that first visit to his castle (and also found out he received brain damage from a blow from Red Hulk in Fall of the Hulks but that's another story)

    We've never seen Valeria being tutored by anyone other than when she would be a part of the growing Future Foundation that Reed started. She did stay with Doom for while after she got angry with her parents as seen at the end of Fraction's Fantastic Four IIRC but it wasn't like some long period of tutoring, etc was going on.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing Username View Post
    According to "Children's Crusade, Doom was the one that planned the genocide of mutantkind caused after "House of M".
    So you found zero examples and are just posting to stir stuff up, good to know.

    Tfst plot point is so stupid it’s not been referred to once since then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing Username View Post
    According to "Children's Crusade, Doom was the one that planned the genocide of mutantkind caused after "House of M".
    If genocide was fascism, then I'm sure every civilization from the Pharaoh Rameses II to King Herod to the Mongol Horde to the Romans and their treatment of Carthage would be considered fascist.

    Seriously, read Umberto Eco and academic definitions of fascism.

  13. #13
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    OP - I feel you're really reaching. I don't think any of the characters you mentioned are outright fascists Red Skull yes, Baron Zemo (historically) yes, Mr. Sinister (in general terms) yes, heck maybe the Leader yes the three you wrote about not so much.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  14. #14
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing Username View Post
    The "Storm" of your avatar once fell in love with Doctor Doom.

    You think Storm would fall in love for a villain? And why would Marvel heroes such as Nadia Pym admire villains so much?
    Nadia only met Doom during his Infamous Iron Man period. Plus, she's from Eastern Europe and maybe the press is more favorable to Doom there

    As for Storm, she never "fell in love" with Doom. They did part amicably at the end of X-Men #147 but they've never had any relationship that one would call love, unless your counting the Chaos Engine series of paperback novels. That was an alternate reality anyway.


    Quote Originally Posted by Missing Username View Post
    According to "Children's Crusade, Doom was the one that planned the genocide of mutantkind caused after "House of M".
    There's a lot of disagreement about that, even among the heroes who where there at the time when Doom made his "confession"



    Without getting to far off into the weeds, the timeline doesn't fit for one thing. At the end of the Waid's Fantastic Four arc Authoritative Action, Doom ends up back in some kind of demon infested limbo again as he was at the end of Unthinkable. He doesn't escape from that dimension until after Civil War is underway. So he wasn't even on Earth when Wanda started the events in Disassembled. After getting the power of the Life Force with Doom's help, she leaves on her own.


  15. #15
    iMan 42s
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing Username View Post
    From comic books and personal experience.

    There's really no disputing the fact that Reed Richards trusted the education of his daughter to a fascist dictator, or that Nadia Pym worships a fascist dictator, or that Valeria Richards worships a fascist dictator, or that all the characters that have a somehow positive opinion on fascism are portrayed as the most intelligent ones.

    Have you never find anyone saying that the fascist dictator Doctor Doom is a hero?
    Good and Evil are relative concepts, any philosopher worth their salt knows this.
    You're cheery picking data in terms of how these characters are perceived and are enjoyed by the masses. Just because a bunch of intelligent characters could be used for fascist ends does not mean they actually are and it's inspiring people to become Dictators. That's reaching on a massive scale.

    You're cherry picking data from the comics (which in of itself is inconsistent) and using personal experience (which is bias) to make the claim that people in the Doctor Doom appreciation thread will one day take over a country or the planet. As well as using intelligence as a way to equate to a philosophy (the intelligent look up to and or are fascists). Indeed this crosses over into fallacy territory.

    What is your sample size, how long did it take to collect data, who did you collect it from, where did you collect it from, what was your results, but more importantly how did you even measure this? What is the way to measure the growth of an ideology?Was this peer reviewed?
    -----------------------------------
    For anyone that needs to know why OMD is awful please search the internet for Linkara' s video's specifically his One more day review or his One more day Analysis.

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