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  1. #31
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Also, the idea that science can be inherently fascistic (the indictment of Nadia aka the new Wasp) is a gross misunderstanding of the historical relationship between scientists and fascists. Fascists often scoffed at science and only allowed scientific inquiry which bolstered their often absurd claims or helped increase their power over others (i.e. military might). They felt science, like every other human endeavor, should be subordinated to the will of the state, rather than be an avenue of genuine inquiry to answer questions or learn about the world around us. In summation, a scientific inquiry which supported fascism or its goals was considered good while a scientific inquiry which refuted fascism or worked towards independent goals was considered bad.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  2. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    Also, the idea that science can be inherently fascistic (the indictment of Nadia aka the new Wasp) is a gross misunderstanding of the historical relationship between scientists and fascists. Fascists often scoffed at science and only allowed scientific inquiry which bolstered their often absurd claims or helped increase their power over others (i.e. military might). They felt science, like every other human endeavor, should be subordinated to the will of the state, rather than be an avenue of genuine inquiry to answer questions or learn about the world around us. In summation, a scientific inquiry which supported fascism or its goals was considered good while a scientific inquiry which refuted fascism or worked towards independent goals was considered bad.
    I don't think that. If I were a Marvel writer, I wouldn't make all their smartest scientists worship a fascist dictator the way they do nowadays.

    I don't know why Marvel believed that having a character aimed at little girls like Nadia openly admiring dictators that often kills dissenters would be a good idea. I only know that they did it anyway.

  3. #33
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    Doom's old ideology can definitely be called fascist, I don't know why that's controversial. The Punisher is a serial killer and Magneto is a terrorist, regardless of how much we like them. New Doom is still a dictator, but without the insane supression, regimentation, or narcissism. So... is he just a monarch now?
    tag the movie made me cry

  4. #34
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    Doom's old ideology can definitely be called fascist, I don't know why that's controversial. The Punisher is a serial killer and Magneto is a terrorist, regardless of how much we like them. New Doom is still a dictator, but without the insane supression, regimentation, or narcissism. So... is he just a monarch now?
    Good point Snoop my main objection to the OP is lumping Reed & even young Nadia in with Doom as being "fascists". I just don't see the characters being that way.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  5. #35
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing Username View Post
    I don't think that. If I were a Marvel writer, I wouldn't make all their smartest scientists worship a fascist dictator the way they do nowadays.

    I don't know why Marvel believed that having a character aimed at little girls like Nadia openly admiring dictators that often kills dissenters would be a good idea. I only know that they did it anyway.
    I admire the works of Machiavelli and Sun Tzu for their analytical thinking and brilliant guide to strategy yet I have zero desire to become a ruthless warlord or a cutthroat political figure.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing Username View Post

    I don't know why Marvel believed that having a character aimed at little girls like Nadia openly admiring dictators that often kills dissenters would be a good idea. I only know that they did it anyway.
    If reading books and playing games led to people taking up those actions, then we would have more civil engineers because of the open world sandbox games.

  7. #37
    Fantastic Member Force de Phenix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing Username View Post
    From comic books and personal experience.

    There's really no disputing the fact that Reed Richards trusted the education of his daughter to a fascist dictator, or that Nadia Pym worships a fascist dictator, or that Valeria Richards worships a fascist dictator, or that all the characters that have a somehow positive opinion on fascism are portrayed as the most intelligent ones.

    Have you never find anyone saying that the fascist dictator Doctor Doom is a hero?
    Anecdotal evidence isn't always fact. People who see villains as "heroes" like Magneto, don't realize that you can't intentionally cause people harm and have it swept under the rug once you do good deeds. It's like when people glorify Scarface or the people in mafia films because they look cool and have power, but ignore the fact that they are made to teach us that these are terrible people that have terrible endings to their lives.
    "You set off the Terrigen Bomb giving the world every excuse to fear the word Inhuman."

    "This is-- this is what Jean felt like..."

    "If you are a mutant, in this world, you are guilty until proven innocent."

  8. #38
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Force de Phenix View Post
    Anecdotal evidence isn't always fact. People who see villains as "heroes" like Magneto, don't realize that you can't intentionally cause people harm and have it swept under the rug once you do good deeds. It's like when people glorify Scarface or the people in mafia films because they look cool and have power, but ignore the fact that they are made to teach us that these are terrible people that have terrible endings to their lives.
    Well put Force de Phenix. This is a lesson sadly that many have forgotten. Genuine redemption requires acts.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  9. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by U.N. Owen View Post
    If reading books and playing games led to people taking up those actions, then we would have more civil engineers because of the open world sandbox games.
    I know of no person that openly worships fascist dictators that aren't fascist themselves.

    Nadia Pym is so self-righteous that she changed her name to Nadia Van Dyne when she learned that Hank Pym had hit the Wasp when he was in thr middle of a breakdown.

    Yet this same self-righteous person worships a fascist dictator. Is that not strange?

  10. #40
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing Username View Post
    I don't think that. If I were a Marvel writer, I wouldn't make all their smartest scientists worship a fascist dictator the way they do nowadays.

    I don't know why Marvel believed that having a character aimed at little girls like Nadia openly admiring dictators that often kills dissenters would be a good idea. I only know that they did it anyway.
    Nadia grew up in a bunker admiring him for his science, met him as an atoning superhero, and he's now a fairer monarch. It is even a gag in the book that she's ignorant of his wider history. Reed Richards is his mortal enemy who typically opposed him. Valeria fondness for him stems from her more pragmatic perspective in contrast to her father's. You're supposed to look at that and think she's a little off when she calls her own father selfish for choosing family over solving everything. And the smartest Marvel character now is Moon Girl, who would look at Doom and think his whole thing is dumb. The fascist agenda at Marvel doesn't exist much when they had a non-Nazi fascist leading a book for two years, making competent, logical arguments for why his fascist agenda was cool actually (based on security > freedom), and then showing why he's wrong and having the heroes step up to shut down the largest fascist takeover in their history.
    tag the movie made me cry

  11. #41
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    To actually bring some academics into this conversation, here's Umberto Eco's "Ur-Fascism"

    https://sites.evergreen.edu/politica...-urfascism.pdf

  12. #42
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    At its core, fascism is highly mutable and really a perversion of democracy: it takes elements that are necessary for a functional democratic society and perverts them. As such, claims of "fascist tendencies" are nearly always disingeneous, because you can find those "fascist tendencies" in nearly every mass culture or mass political movement.

    Rather, it is the specific combination of several traits that combine into fascism, the most important being populism, ultranationalism, and restoration to an imagined earlier state.

    And here I note that the closest thing that comics has to a fascist group started out its campaigns directly targeting Marvel.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  13. #43
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by U.N. Owen View Post
    To actually bring some academics into this conversation, here's Umberto Eco's "Ur-Fascism"

    https://sites.evergreen.edu/politica...-urfascism.pdf
    FYI I'm a sociologist.

    Edit This isn't an academic article.
    Last edited by Celgress; 07-21-2019 at 01:41 PM.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  14. #44
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing Username View Post

    Nadia Pym is so self-righteous that she changed her name to Nadia Van Dyne when she learned that Hank Pym had hit the Wasp when he was in thr middle of a breakdown.
    explicitly not why she did that

    tag the movie made me cry

  15. #45
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by U.N. Owen View Post
    To actually bring some academics into this conversation, here's Umberto Eco's "Ur-Fascism"

    https://sites.evergreen.edu/politica...-urfascism.pdf
    While valuable, Eco is more doing a description of fascism than a definition of it. It's one of the best and most insightful descriptions, but it can lead to problems when applied to modern forms of fascism, or when trying to identify fascist movements that are early in their development.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

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