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  1. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    The fascist agenda at Marvel doesn't exist much when they had a non-Nazi fascist leading a book for two years, making competent, logical arguments for why his fascist agenda was cool actually (based on security > freedom), and then showing why he's wrong and having the heroes step up to shut down the largest fascist takeover in their history.
    Was it "shown" ehy he was wrong, or the heroes just beat him up?

    You also ignore that heroes such as Thor, Beast and the X-Men were Hydra's allies during their fascist takeover.

    And you also ignore that, according to "Doomwar", the only good Earths in the infinity Marvel Multiverse are the ones in which Doctor Doom has put the whole planet under a fascist regime.

    That, plus the fact that Marvel portrays their smartest characters as worshipers of a fascist dictator, led me to believe that there's maybe some malicious intent behind all those "Dictatorship is Cool" stories told in the 10 years.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    FYI I'm a sociologist.

    Edit This isn't an academic article.
    Odd. I remember using it for Comparative Government. Then again, I'm old, so I probably am misremembering.

    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    While valuable, Eco is more doing a description of fascism than a definition of it. It's one of the best and most insightful descriptions, but it can lead to problems when applied to modern forms of fascism, or when trying to identify fascist movements that are early in their development.
    I personally wouldn't use Eco for anything for modern movement. Although this is Doom we're talking about. We have nearly 100 years of stories to draw on for arguments.
    Last edited by U.N. Owen; 07-21-2019 at 01:48 PM.

  3. #48
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    FYI, everyone, this is how a true academic article is formatted (extensive source footnotes or endnotes and proper phraseology). The one previously posted is little more than an extended book review -

    http://www.ask-force.org/web/Fundame...scism-1998.pdf
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    FYI, everyone, this is how a true academic article is formatted (extensive source footnotes or endnotes and proper phraseology). The one previously posted is little more than an extended book review -

    http://www.ask-force.org/web/Fundame...scism-1998.pdf
    Was about to post this, but thanks for beating me to it.

  5. #50
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by U.N. Owen View Post
    Was about to post this, but thanks for beating me to it.
    You're welcome.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  6. #51
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing Username View Post
    Was it "shown" ehy he was wrong, or the heroes just beat him up?

    You also ignore that heroes such as Thor, Beast and the X-Men were Hydra's allies during their fascist takeover.

    And you also ignore that, according to "Doomwar", the only good Earths in the infinity Marvel Multiverse are the ones in which Doctor Doom has put the whole planet under a fascist regime.

    That, plus the fact that Marvel portrays their smartest characters as worshipers of a fascist dictator, led me to believe that there's maybe some malicious intent behind all those "Dictatorship is Cool" stories told in the 10 years.
    You've stated this a couple of times now. Please show us an example of Reed, Tony Stark, Henry Pym, Bruce Banner, etc worshipping Doom. They sure have an odd way of showing it.

  7. #52
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing Username View Post
    Was it "shown" ehy he was wrong, or the heroes just beat him up?

    You also ignore that heroes such as Thor, Beast and the X-Men were Hydra's allies during their fascist takeover.

    And you also ignore that, according to "Doomwar", the only good Earths in the infinity Marvel Multiverse are the ones in which Doctor Doom has put the whole planet under a fascist regime.

    That, plus the fact that Marvel portrays their smartest characters as worshipers of a fascist dictator, led me to believe that there's maybe some malicious intent behind all those "Dictatorship is Cool" stories told in the 10 years.
    Hydra Cap put Inhumans in camps, murdered tens of thousands looking for dissidents, declared war and invaded multiple countries, brokered a treaty with mutants when in reality he was planning to erase them from existence, and attempted to rewrite all of reality.

    Thor obeyed Steve out of ignorance and loyalty to who he thought was the man he respected most who he also thought was still worthy of Mjolnir, and even while thinking that put Steve in the right, he still rebelled. Beast and the X-Men cooperated with Hydra mostly because they had to because that was the way keep mutants safe for a while.

    In Doomwar, the idea of the Doomworld is that it is a fascist state where any crime equals death, therefore it is a perfect order, the ends justify all of the means, and it is driven by Victor thinking he's above mankind. He passes the Panther God's test because it looks at a limited number of futures and sees that as the one where civilization is still around. We know that society is bad, we can see it, and the story knows that it's bad because he's the villain. The detached higher entity sees it as okay.
    I spend three hours a night alone playing dance games.

  8. #53
    Mighty Member chamber-music's Avatar
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    Doctor Doom is a textbook authoritarian/autocrat.

  9. #54
    Incredible Member Cowtools's Avatar
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    The association between being the 'smartest in the MU' and being dictatorial is simply playing into the common trope that super-intelligent people come to think that they know what's best for everyone else. Sherlock played into this, as did The Big Bang Theory, and a dozen other stories.

    It's not really anything to do with fascist sympathies IMO, but it's because of a narrow understanding of intelligence. Note how being the 'most intelligent person' in the MU is defined only in terms of scientific knowledge. Emotional intelligence, interpersonal skills, philosophical and abstract thinking - these are just as important aspects of intelligence in the real world. But that's harder to write.

    Honestly, the actual smartest person in the MU would be the character with the most stable relationships, stable mental health, and stable work-life balance.
    So it's honestly probably Squirrel Girl

  10. #55
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    I can see the point you're making OP. I love Doctor Doom, but he's no mensch. I'm not sure we're supposed to 'like' the fact that Valeria looks up to him so much. That seems more like a parenting problem with Reed and Sue.

    Sorta unrelated but hey- a huge swath of the MCU seems to be authoritarian, at the very least. SHIELD this spooky shadow agency that seemingly answers to no one, but don't worry they're good guys! We're lucky Nick Fury isn't a tyrant, but he could be. A lot of this seems to have grown out of Millar's Ultimates and the post 9/11 world. All of this is fine within fiction, but when the films prop it up as 'fun' I feel weird and uncomfortable.

    Luckily Marvel makes up for this with guys like the Silver Surfer who just wanna fly around and learn stuff and help people out. More of that, please! Way less of these monarchs and Silicon Valley robber barons. We need more Silver Surfers, man!
    Last edited by Flash Gordon; 07-21-2019 at 03:37 PM.
    Follow your inner moonlight, do not hide the madness. -Ginsberg

  11. #56
    The King Fears NO ONE! Triniking1234's Avatar
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    "Marvel promotes fascism because one of their popular villains is an evil dictator"

    tenor (1).jpg
    "Cable was right!"

  12. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by Triniking1234 View Post
    "Marvel promotes fascism because one of their popular villains is an evil dictator"

    tenor (1).jpg
    An evil dictator that heroes trust to educate their children, an evil dictator that heroines can't help but fall in love with, an evil dictator that is canonically the only person in all realities that can make life on Earth good, an evil dictator that is a big idol of young heroes and heroines, etc.

    Doom gets more love from Marvel heroes than the vast majority of Marvel heroes.
    Last edited by Missing Username; 07-21-2019 at 06:25 PM.

  13. #58
    Incredible Member Kintor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing Username View Post
    An evil dictator that heroes trust to educate their children, an evil dictator that heroines can't help but fall in love with, an evil dictator that is canonically the only person in all realities that can make life on Earth good, an evil dictator that is a big idol of young heroes and heroines, etc.

    Doom gets more love from Marvel heroes than the vast majority of Marvel heroes.
    Well, that's the funny thing about charismatic individuals they have a way of making you like them even against your better judgement. In the case of Doom that seems to be true both in-universe and amongst Marvel's actual readership. You may hate Doom and everything he represents but you can't deny his sheer force of personality that makes you pay attention to whatever he's doing. Because Doom's role in the Marvel universe is to be that little seed of doubt, the thought that all the heroes and their shining ambitions might actually be wrong. Whether you listen to those doubts or not is entirely up to you.

  14. #59
    FF purist/snob CaptCleghorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kintor View Post
    Well, that's the funny thing about charismatic individuals they have a way of making you like them even against your better judgement. In the case of Doom that seems to be true both in-universe and amongst Marvel's actual readership. You may hate Doom and everything he represents but you can't deny his sheer force of personality that makes you pay attention to whatever he's doing. Because Doom's role in the Marvel universe is to be that little seed of doubt, the thought that all the heroes and their shining ambitions might actually be wrong. Whether you listen to those doubts or not is entirely up to you.
    Much of Doom's appeal lies in his sometimes good turns. He is a villain, but he sometimes does the right thing, even if a selfish, self-centered way. Unlike a lot of bad guys, Doom is worth the effort to try to pull him over to the good side. There's no way his good deeds are going to outnumber his evil deeds, but he's got enough good stuff to impress a few heroes.

  15. #60
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Here are the opinions of some creators on Doom:

    "I had a hand in creating Doctor Doom...Doom is a very tragic figure...I like Doom. Doom has got a lot of class, he's got a lot of cool. But Doom has one fallacy: he thinks he's ugly. He's afraid to take that mask off. Doom is an extremist; he's a paranoid. He thinks in extremes...if Doom had an enemy, he'd have to wipe him out. And if Doom thought that anybody was smarter than himself, he'd kill 'em, because Doom would have to be the smartest man in the world."
    — Jack Kirby, Kirby & Lee: Stuf’ Said!: The complex genesis of the Marvel Universe, in its creators’ own words, by John Morrow.

    "Everybody has Doctor Doom misunderstood. Everybody thinks he’s a criminal, but all he wants is to rule the world. Now, if you really think about it objectively, you could walk up to a policeman, and you could say, 'Excuse me, officer, I want to tell you something: I want to rule the world.' He can’t arrest you; it’s not a crime to want to rule the world."
    — Stan Lee

    "Doom, at heart, is a revolutionary, and there's no such thing as a revolutionary who's all bad. Even Robespierre had a couple of good ideas. He was a barking lunatic whose hobby was lopping people's heads off, but he had a few good ideas. Doom's very first detailed act in the Marvel Universe was when he took control of Latveria from a bunch of calcified aristocratic types...Doom may do monstrous things, but he is not a monster."
    — Warren Ellis, 2099 Special: The World of Doom

    "Doom was born a [Romani]...Put differently, he was one of us. His aspect was scarred from his attempts to transcend himself, and so he donned a mask...Comics are so often seen as the province of white geeky nerds. But, more broadly, comics are the literature of outcasts, of pariahs, of Jews, of gays, of blacks. It's really no mistake that we saw ourselves in Doom, Magneto or Rogue."
    — Ta-Nehisi Coates.

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